Hey everyone,
So I've been thinking about doing a mini-BIAB for a while now as an experiment, and I think I've decided on combining my first 'oaking' experiment with this one. I've read a lot about mini-BIAB and I'm pretty happy with the process, just wanted to run the recipe past you gurus for an opinion.
I'm basically looking at using a modified version of this stout recipe: http://jimsbeerkit.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 17#p418054
With the following modifications to scale for a 10L batch rather than 23, and to use malts / hops that are available to me. If anyone has any comments on this or whether it will fail catastrophically because I've missed something they'd be very much appreciated!
10L Stout:
1.7kg Marris Otter
374g Roast Barley
233g Flake Barley
154g Carapils
117g Amber Malt
117g Chocolate Malt
47g Carafa Type 3 (Original Recipe calls for T2, but my preferred stockist only has T1 or T3 so thought darker would be better?)
21.1g Dana Hops (10.9% AA) - (Original Recipe has Admiral at 10.6, my stockist doesn't seem to have these so I guess this is OK?)
White Labs WLP004 Irish Ale Yeast
General Idea:
Mash at 65.5C for 60 Mins
Dunk Sparge Twice
60 Minute Boil with one hop addition (First Wort)
Whirlfloc Tablet
Cool in water bath and transfer to FV for 7-10 days at 20 degrees.
Meanwhile soak some oak chips in a small amount of whisky in fridge while primary ferments.
Rack to secondary with oak chips at leave for 2 weeks to 'oak'
Bottle condition, age for a month and try.
So that's the grand plan. Quite a few experiments crammed into one really, as I've never used liquid yeast before. Do I need a starter for this?
I'm looking to get OG of 1.056 ideally.
The spreadsheet is telling me I need 17.66 litres of water, with a mash volume of 19.58 litres. My stock pot is 21 Litres so this shouldn't be a problem. I left the default efficiency in at 79% as this is my first, so I have no idea what my efficiency will actually be!
Post #2 made 13 years ago
Welcome to the forum aj 
,
It sounds like you have a very good handle on the process. Good on you! I have to head to work now but can check the recipe for you in more detail this time tomorrow if that is any help.
Does WLP004 come in a smack pack? If so, with that small batch size, you definitely wouldn't need a starter. Maybe look for a dry yeast alternative to save yourself a bit of money???
PP
,It sounds like you have a very good handle on the process. Good on you! I have to head to work now but can check the recipe for you in more detail this time tomorrow if that is any help.
Does WLP004 come in a smack pack? If so, with that small batch size, you definitely wouldn't need a starter. Maybe look for a dry yeast alternative to save yourself a bit of money???
PP
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Post #3 made 13 years ago
I soaked medium toasted oak chips in whiskey and added that to the secondary with good success. Left it for a few days, I think it was six. It was in a wee heavy. was very good!
Yours should definitly be a crowd pleaser!
Yours should definitly be a crowd pleaser!
Post #4 made 13 years ago
Hey Pistol, Squared 
Glad the process thinking sounds about right on this, if you wouldn't mind having a quick check over the recipe PP that'd be very much appreciated and it'd just settle my mind a bit before ordering everything! The White Labs yeasts are the liquid vial ones rather than smack packs but I think they work in a similar way. I was thinking of a dry yeast as the bulk of the cost is coming from the yeast, which seems a bit unbalanced for a batch of this size. The only thing that drew me to the Irish Ale yeast was it seemed to sound good for stouts, but my stockist only has a limited supply of dried yeast. It's not a problem for my other ales as I'm a great lover of Nottingham, but wondered whether this would be suitable for stout (not done one before) or whether I should play safe and go for something neutral like US-05.
Squared, good to hear that you had good success with the oak chips, it was the medium toast I was looking at too. Did you have to age the beer for long afterwards? I seem to be coming across posts saying that it takes months in the bottle for the oak to mellow out? Also did you pick up on much of a whisky flavour, and did you add the whisky in there as well as the chips?
Thanks for the replies guys
Glad the process thinking sounds about right on this, if you wouldn't mind having a quick check over the recipe PP that'd be very much appreciated and it'd just settle my mind a bit before ordering everything! The White Labs yeasts are the liquid vial ones rather than smack packs but I think they work in a similar way. I was thinking of a dry yeast as the bulk of the cost is coming from the yeast, which seems a bit unbalanced for a batch of this size. The only thing that drew me to the Irish Ale yeast was it seemed to sound good for stouts, but my stockist only has a limited supply of dried yeast. It's not a problem for my other ales as I'm a great lover of Nottingham, but wondered whether this would be suitable for stout (not done one before) or whether I should play safe and go for something neutral like US-05.
Squared, good to hear that you had good success with the oak chips, it was the medium toast I was looking at too. Did you have to age the beer for long afterwards? I seem to be coming across posts saying that it takes months in the bottle for the oak to mellow out? Also did you pick up on much of a whisky flavour, and did you add the whisky in there as well as the chips?
Thanks for the replies guys
Post #5 made 13 years ago
I'm no expert but I think Nottingham would be fine for this one aj. I think it's the way I would go given the cost.
Will have a good look at the numbers tomorrow.
Will have a good look at the numbers tomorrow
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Post #6 made 13 years ago
Think I'll go notty. Saves me some money and removes one of the unknowns from the process for this time. I'll start using liquids when I am brewing the same style often enough to get into washing and reusing I think.
Post #7 made 13 years ago
Hey, now that you mention it I did add the "Juice" from the chips in there as well, although I only added about half cup total. I was worried that there would be too much excess tannins, but it was very forgiving and I do not detect any.
As for aging, I found it was drinkable rather quickly, although after two months (in the bottle) It was at It's peak in my opinion. The oak mellows out too, and sort of fades into the back a little more. It was never a punch in the face oak, however, I thought it was better after the ageing.There is a detectable whiskey flavor but again, it is not harsh or dominating. This was my first crack at it so I was more conservative on my flavor additions, although I may have been able to add another cup of pure whiskey to the bottling bucket without problems.
Since yours is a dark and complex brew with a good alcohol kick, I would suspect that ageing is gonna be doing this brew a favour. The real trick will be having enough self control not to drink the whole lot right away!
As for aging, I found it was drinkable rather quickly, although after two months (in the bottle) It was at It's peak in my opinion. The oak mellows out too, and sort of fades into the back a little more. It was never a punch in the face oak, however, I thought it was better after the ageing.There is a detectable whiskey flavor but again, it is not harsh or dominating. This was my first crack at it so I was more conservative on my flavor additions, although I may have been able to add another cup of pure whiskey to the bottling bucket without problems.
Since yours is a dark and complex brew with a good alcohol kick, I would suspect that ageing is gonna be doing this brew a favour. The real trick will be having enough self control not to drink the whole lot right away!
Post #8 made 13 years ago
Hi aj,
Just had a look at the numbers. There's a few problems with the original recipe. The first is that there is no OG given which makes a recipe very hard to scale accurately. The second problem is that there is no volume given either. (A few posts later, it says 23 L but not whether it is 23 L into the fermentor or 23 L at the end of the boil.)
I think your interpretation of 1.056 is a good one and matches pretty closely with the original recipe assuming that the 23 L was volume into fermentor (VIF). (The only real way of knowing though is by contacting the author and asking him what his VIF was and what his kettle trub was.)
I've had to take some other guesses. For example, I'm assuming that by 10 L you mean volume into fermentor. (Try and avoid the term 'batch size' as it has become quite meaningless these days.) Also I 'guessed' your evaporation rate by estimating your pot diameter to be 25 cms. Your numbers come up very close to mine with the exception of the hops. Mine come up as 17 grams.
If you have already filled out the calculator, maybe post it up here and I'll see if I can tweak it a bit for you. Looks like you have done an excellent job an the recipe even with some critical info missing.
PP
Just had a look at the numbers. There's a few problems with the original recipe. The first is that there is no OG given which makes a recipe very hard to scale accurately. The second problem is that there is no volume given either. (A few posts later, it says 23 L but not whether it is 23 L into the fermentor or 23 L at the end of the boil.)
I think your interpretation of 1.056 is a good one and matches pretty closely with the original recipe assuming that the 23 L was volume into fermentor (VIF). (The only real way of knowing though is by contacting the author and asking him what his VIF was and what his kettle trub was.)
I've had to take some other guesses. For example, I'm assuming that by 10 L you mean volume into fermentor. (Try and avoid the term 'batch size' as it has become quite meaningless these days.) Also I 'guessed' your evaporation rate by estimating your pot diameter to be 25 cms. Your numbers come up very close to mine with the exception of the hops. Mine come up as 17 grams.
If you have already filled out the calculator, maybe post it up here and I'll see if I can tweak it a bit for you. Looks like you have done an excellent job an the recipe even with some critical info missing.
PP
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Post #9 made 13 years ago
Thanks for taking a look PP, to address some of your points:
Yeah I was a little thrown by there not been an OG on there, I can have a go at contacting the author, I guess it will all depend on the amount of information he records about the brews!
I was meaning 10L into fermenter, I've just realised it's actually a 19L stockpot that I have not a 21 but that should still be OK, it's got a 30cm outer diameter, can't find my tape to measure inner at the minute, but would estimate a 28ish at least, it's not very thick sided.
I've attached the calculator for you to have a look at, once again all of this help is very much appreciated!
Yeah I was a little thrown by there not been an OG on there, I can have a go at contacting the author, I guess it will all depend on the amount of information he records about the brews!
I was meaning 10L into fermenter, I've just realised it's actually a 19L stockpot that I have not a 21 but that should still be OK, it's got a 30cm outer diameter, can't find my tape to measure inner at the minute, but would estimate a 28ish at least, it's not very thick sided.
I've attached the calculator for you to have a look at, once again all of this help is very much appreciated!
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Last edited by ajclarkson on 21 Apr 2012, 20:52, edited 3 times in total.
Post #10 made 13 years ago
Yep, great job on the calculator AJ . That's no small feat 
.
I've only changed a couple of things... I have changed Brew Lenght to 9.26 so as it gives you 10 L volume into fermenter. I've raised your End of Boil Efficiency to 80.1% so it matches the latest efficiency estimator we have in the beta BIABacus. And on the hop bill, I have changed E8 to 26 litres as I'm guessing that the recipe would have been 23 litres into the fermentor plus about 3 L of trub.
Just noticed that Bribie is the author. He is "BeachBum" on this forum so you could always PM him to get a better idea on his End of Boil Volume and OG. This will reduce the error margin of the scaling a fair bit as a lot of what you (and I) have had to do here has been guesswork.
Nice work AJ
. That's no small feat .I've only changed a couple of things... I have changed Brew Lenght to 9.26 so as it gives you 10 L volume into fermenter. I've raised your End of Boil Efficiency to 80.1% so it matches the latest efficiency estimator we have in the beta BIABacus. And on the hop bill, I have changed E8 to 26 litres as I'm guessing that the recipe would have been 23 litres into the fermentor plus about 3 L of trub.
Just noticed that Bribie is the author. He is "BeachBum" on this forum so you could always PM him to get a better idea on his End of Boil Volume and OG. This will reduce the error margin of the scaling a fair bit as a lot of what you (and I) have had to do here has been guesswork.
Nice work AJ
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Post #11 made 13 years ago
Thanks, it's encouraging to know that I got a decent amount of it right on my first stab!
I've sent BeachBum a PM to see if he has any extra information about the recipe that might help, and thanks for the slight alterations on the calculator. When I get a chance I'll get around to doing the calibration for my brewpot as well. Hopefully I'll hear back soon and I can get the ingredients for a brew roughly a week today as my stocks are starting to run low!
Also, thanks squared for the information about the whisky. I think I'll follow a similar pattern and add some of the chip juice too, maybe slightly more than 1/2 a cup but I'll see when I've nailed the recipe and got it in the FV.
I expected a couple of months would be best for something like this, so I guess I'll just have to get another fast maturer on to keep my temptation at bay!
I've sent BeachBum a PM to see if he has any extra information about the recipe that might help, and thanks for the slight alterations on the calculator. When I get a chance I'll get around to doing the calibration for my brewpot as well. Hopefully I'll hear back soon and I can get the ingredients for a brew roughly a week today as my stocks are starting to run low!
Also, thanks squared for the information about the whisky. I think I'll follow a similar pattern and add some of the chip juice too, maybe slightly more than 1/2 a cup but I'll see when I've nailed the recipe and got it in the FV.
I expected a couple of months would be best for something like this, so I guess I'll just have to get another fast maturer on to keep my temptation at bay!
Post #12 made 13 years ago
Hey AJ,
my 2 cents:
i'v brewed my version of a "whiskey barrel porter" several times with great success.
i have it posted on the Recipatorand on BrewMate.net.
i have not brewed it for over a year but my notes say i used Safale S-04 English ale OR Danstar Nottingham dry yeast (i used both at two separate batches). my notes also say i user 60gm of oak chips and 450 ml of whiskey but i do think i only used 1 cup of whiskey.
you don't have to actually soak the oak in whiskey. you could zap the oak chips in a bit of water in the microwave for 5-10 minutes. that will kill anything on them (and the kitchen will smell great!). than add that to the secondary with the whiskey.
my 2 cents:
i'v brewed my version of a "whiskey barrel porter" several times with great success.
i have it posted on the Recipatorand on BrewMate.net.
i have not brewed it for over a year but my notes say i used Safale S-04 English ale OR Danstar Nottingham dry yeast (i used both at two separate batches). my notes also say i user 60gm of oak chips and 450 ml of whiskey but i do think i only used 1 cup of whiskey.
you don't have to actually soak the oak in whiskey. you could zap the oak chips in a bit of water in the microwave for 5-10 minutes. that will kill anything on them (and the kitchen will smell great!). than add that to the secondary with the whiskey.
Last edited by shibolet on 22 Apr 2012, 20:33, edited 3 times in total.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
Post #13 made 13 years ago
Hey Shibolet,
Thanks for your input! It's useful to see the whole recipe for your porter, and your comments about the whisky are very much appreciated. I think I'll probably soak the oak as well, just as I'll have 7-10 days anyway while the primary ferment is on, but it looks like people are definitely adding at least some of the whisky into the secondary too to boost the flavour, so I'll definitely be doing that too.
Im curious to have a go with some roast barley which is why I leaned towards a stout recipe, but if I don't hear back with the original information on that recipe, I may just give your Porter a try as my first whisky experiment
Thanks for your input! It's useful to see the whole recipe for your porter, and your comments about the whisky are very much appreciated. I think I'll probably soak the oak as well, just as I'll have 7-10 days anyway while the primary ferment is on, but it looks like people are definitely adding at least some of the whisky into the secondary too to boost the flavour, so I'll definitely be doing that too.
Im curious to have a go with some roast barley which is why I leaned towards a stout recipe, but if I don't hear back with the original information on that recipe, I may just give your Porter a try as my first whisky experiment
Post #14 made 13 years ago
After checking I hadn't sent the PM to BeachBum correctly, so I re-sent today and he kindly responded immediately with the added information:
Dry Stout
Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 24.0
Total Grain (kg): 5.930
Total Hops (g): 40.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.052 (°P): 12.9
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 5.11 %
Colour (SRM): 42.1 (EBC): 82.9
Bitterness (IBU): 33.3 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60
Grain Bill
----------------
4.000 kg Pale Malt Golden Promise (67.45%)
0.500 kg Flaked Barley (8.43%)
0.500 kg Roasted Barley (8.43%)
0.330 kg Carapils (Dextrine) (5.56%)
0.250 kg Amber Malt (4.22%)
0.250 kg Choc Chit JW (4.22%)
0.100 kg Carafa II malt (1.69%)
Hop Bill
----------------
40.0 g Willamette Pellet (7.1% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.7 g/L)
Misc Bill
----------------
Single step Infusion at 66°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 20°C with Wyeast 1084 - Irish Ale
Adding that he predicted roughly 21-22 into the Fermenter after accounting for trub losses.
That should enable me to have a play with the calculator again and get a much more accurate idea. Then hopefully order some supplies and get cracking this weekend!
Dry Stout
Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 24.0
Total Grain (kg): 5.930
Total Hops (g): 40.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.052 (°P): 12.9
Final Gravity (FG): 1.013 (°P): 3.3
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 5.11 %
Colour (SRM): 42.1 (EBC): 82.9
Bitterness (IBU): 33.3 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60
Grain Bill
----------------
4.000 kg Pale Malt Golden Promise (67.45%)
0.500 kg Flaked Barley (8.43%)
0.500 kg Roasted Barley (8.43%)
0.330 kg Carapils (Dextrine) (5.56%)
0.250 kg Amber Malt (4.22%)
0.250 kg Choc Chit JW (4.22%)
0.100 kg Carafa II malt (1.69%)
Hop Bill
----------------
40.0 g Willamette Pellet (7.1% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.7 g/L)
Misc Bill
----------------
Single step Infusion at 66°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 20°C with Wyeast 1084 - Irish Ale
Adding that he predicted roughly 21-22 into the Fermenter after accounting for trub losses.
That should enable me to have a play with the calculator again and get a much more accurate idea. Then hopefully order some supplies and get cracking this weekend!
Post #15 made 13 years ago
Okay, here's what I'm seeing from the above...
OG = 1.052 (And that will be inaccurate because I know the program this comes from.)
End of Boil Volume (I'll assume at ambient) = 24L
Kettle Trub = 1.75 L
Volume into Fermentor = 21.5 (Average of 21 and 22)
Brewhouse Efficiency = The major variable. Brewhouse efficiency, in this case, will either mean efficiency into the kettle or efficiency into the fermentor - two totally different figures.
.....Rant......
aj, I'll have a look tomorrow as well. (I've got the program that the recipe report comes from so should be able to narrow down what is meant by batch size and brewhouse efficiency by playing a game of twenty questions
.)
If existing brewing programs were written well, you and I would only have to spend two minutes (just entering ingredients etc) rather than hours scaling a recipe to an acceptable degree of accuracy.
Better say bye before I get really frustrated
.
We'll get it worked out tomorrow,
PP
OG = 1.052 (And that will be inaccurate because I know the program this comes from.)
End of Boil Volume (I'll assume at ambient) = 24L
Kettle Trub = 1.75 L
Volume into Fermentor = 21.5 (Average of 21 and 22)
Brewhouse Efficiency = The major variable. Brewhouse efficiency, in this case, will either mean efficiency into the kettle or efficiency into the fermentor - two totally different figures.
.....Rant......
aj, I'll have a look tomorrow as well. (I've got the program that the recipe report comes from so should be able to narrow down what is meant by batch size and brewhouse efficiency by playing a game of twenty questions
.) If existing brewing programs were written well, you and I would only have to spend two minutes (just entering ingredients etc) rather than hours scaling a recipe to an acceptable degree of accuracy.
Better say bye before I get really frustrated
.We'll get it worked out tomorrow
,PP
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Post #16 made 13 years ago
Haha I bow to your superior knowledge on the finer variances of brewing software, and as always wholly appreciate your time and help with getting this right!
Post #17 made 13 years ago
LOL!
Okay, have had a look and it was a different program to the one I thought. Anyway...
It looks like his Brewhouese Efficiency of 70% means efficiency into kettle in this case. This makes the numbers add up close enough. I found an error on the first spreadsheet on the amount of flaked barley. Have changed this to 500. Have also changed E8 on the Hop Bill sheet to 24 l. I think this is now good to go.
Here you go
Okay, have had a look and it was a different program to the one I thought. Anyway...
It looks like his Brewhouese Efficiency of 70% means efficiency into kettle in this case. This makes the numbers add up close enough. I found an error on the first spreadsheet on the amount of flaked barley. Have changed this to 500. Have also changed E8 on the Hop Bill sheet to 24 l. I think this is now good to go.
Here you go
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Post #18 made 13 years ago
That's fantastic, very much appreciated. I'll get everything ordered and hopefully be able to do this over the weekend. I'll let you know how it goes!
Post #19 made 13 years ago
Well I was able to give this a shot today, and a lengthy 5 1/2 hours later its in the fermentor with yeast pitched.
The recipe I finally used was:
Brew Length: 9.26L
1.79 kg Marris Otter
224g Roast Barley
224g Flaked Barley
148g Carapils
112g Amber Malt
112g Chocolate Malt
45g Carafa Type 3
19.4g Target (11% AA) (Single addition at start of boil)
1/4 Whirlfloc Tablet
1 Pkg Nottingham Ale Yeast
--
I went for a 90 minute mash, and managed to keep the temperature within 3 degrees over the 90, using the oven as temperature control.
The OG came out at 1.058 which I'm attributing to the fact that I only got 9.8L or possibly slightly less into the FV, giving that 0.02 higher.
I was interrupted pitching and I've just realised that I didn't aerate half as much as I should have, but with a full packet of notty in there I'm hoping all will be OK.
All in all for a first BIAB I really enjoyed this brew day. I truly feel like no matter how this beer turns out, I am the only one who is completely responsible as I took the raw ingredients and did everything, and I'm already itching to do another one now!
I've got 30 grams of Medium Toast Oak chips soaking in 110ml of Jura Origin whisky ready for the secondary.
The recipe I finally used was:
Brew Length: 9.26L
1.79 kg Marris Otter
224g Roast Barley
224g Flaked Barley
148g Carapils
112g Amber Malt
112g Chocolate Malt
45g Carafa Type 3
19.4g Target (11% AA) (Single addition at start of boil)
1/4 Whirlfloc Tablet
1 Pkg Nottingham Ale Yeast
--
I went for a 90 minute mash, and managed to keep the temperature within 3 degrees over the 90, using the oven as temperature control.
The OG came out at 1.058 which I'm attributing to the fact that I only got 9.8L or possibly slightly less into the FV, giving that 0.02 higher.
I was interrupted pitching and I've just realised that I didn't aerate half as much as I should have, but with a full packet of notty in there I'm hoping all will be OK.
All in all for a first BIAB I really enjoyed this brew day. I truly feel like no matter how this beer turns out, I am the only one who is completely responsible as I took the raw ingredients and did everything, and I'm already itching to do another one now!
I've got 30 grams of Medium Toast Oak chips soaking in 110ml of Jura Origin whisky ready for the secondary.
