Hey Trout, yes I still do this and am steeping the spec malts for 20 minutes at mashout. I have read anecdotal evidence that mashout doesn't need to be held for BIAB, but if the spec grains don't go in until then, I really think they need some time to rinse the sugars out.
I definitely prefer my beers made this way. They have a much better (broader?) flavour profile.
Post #27 made 14 years ago
You holding the 20 min. steep at mash out temps?
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Post #28 made 14 years ago
Yes, that's right 20 minutes at mashout temp. Then raise the bag, drain and bring to boil as per normal.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #29 made 14 years ago
No worries Siggy, I think Pistolpatch has given it a go as well, not sure how he got on though???
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #30 made 14 years ago
I've been reading that "Guinness the 250 year quest for the perfect pint" book and I note that although the base pale malt and a brown malt are mashed in the main mash tun, or "kieve" , the roasted barley is extracted / steeped separately and the extract added at the end. I added my RB at mashout in the dry stout I just made for a competition, turned out really smooth.EoinMag wrote:Hmmm as someone who lives in Dublin, with our famous Dublin water, why would I want to do this when making a stout? Surely that will stop my mash actually reaching the correct pH which it can reach when I add the dark malts to my pale malt and mash it all together. It would bring back an element of water treatment that my city has already provided me with out of the tap so really I think this idea is of limited usage and isn't something I'll be doing in a hurry after the cracking stout I recently brewed.
Edit: off topic, I also fermented it at 25° and it was ready to bottle in 5 days from pitching
- I'd taken a punt that the Wyeast Irish Ale is actually related to Irish Strains. Turned out clean as a whistle. 
Last edited by Beachbum on 14 Jul 2011, 07:44, edited 9 times in total.
Post #31 made 14 years ago
Sorry hash, missed your post until now. Tried your trick and it scored a silver at the Royal Perth Show. Mind you, so did the last Schwartz I put in there without doing the trick. I have only tasted this last brew a day after kegging and it was too unsettled for me to notice anything. So, what I need to do is try it again now. Will report back!hashie wrote:No worries Siggy, I think Pistolpatch has given it a go as well, not sure how he got on though???
Last edited by PistolPatch on 14 Jul 2011, 09:47, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #32 made 13 years ago
I have just attempted this method and compared to no mash out it appears that I have an increase in OG from previous brews for the same or very similar grain bill. Be interesting to see if there is a distinct difference in flavour. Learning every day.
Post #33 made 13 years ago
Having a higher OG won't have anything to do with when you added the specialty grains Shifter. This will just be due to one of many other reasons - remember, you can't tell much from a single brew.
One thing that did jump out at me adding the specialty grains at mash out on the brew I last mentioned here was the more pronounced flavour of the specialty grain - that schwartz came out too roasty. I corresponded with hashie on this and he said, 'Yes, it does enhance the flavour a lot.' So, I suspect that if you use this method, you could probably reduce the amount of the specialty grain by as much as 35%. (Careful though as this opinion is only based on a single brew
)
One of the recent BeerSmith podcasts discusses all this but I haven't been able to listen to it as yet. I think it will be a great podcast. (I'd link it but am away from home atm and have the worst internet connection ever!)
Cheers!
PP
One thing that did jump out at me adding the specialty grains at mash out on the brew I last mentioned here was the more pronounced flavour of the specialty grain - that schwartz came out too roasty. I corresponded with hashie on this and he said, 'Yes, it does enhance the flavour a lot.' So, I suspect that if you use this method, you could probably reduce the amount of the specialty grain by as much as 35%. (Careful though as this opinion is only based on a single brew
)One of the recent BeerSmith podcasts discusses all this but I haven't been able to listen to it as yet. I think it will be a great podcast. (I'd link it but am away from home atm and have the worst internet connection ever!)
Cheers!
PP
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Post #34 made 13 years ago
PP,
Thanks for your post.
I understand that adding specialty grains will not increase the OG, but the mash out, which I have not really done previously, appears to have made a considerable difference in gravity. Does that make sense?
Thanks for your post.
I understand that adding specialty grains will not increase the OG, but the mash out, which I have not really done previously, appears to have made a considerable difference in gravity. Does that make sense?
Post #35 made 13 years ago
Shifter, you've hit the nail on the head. Adding a mash out will increase your extract efficiency.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #37 made 13 years ago
Okay, I now see we have gone off-topic 
To get back on track a bit:
1. A mash-out will always increase efficiency but...
2. Adding specialty grains at mash-out (instead of at the beginning of the mash) will not increase efficiency but will probably increase the amount of flavour that gets extracted.
Hopefully we are now back on the same page
To get back on track a bit
:1. A mash-out will always increase efficiency but...
2. Adding specialty grains at mash-out (instead of at the beginning of the mash) will not increase efficiency but will probably increase the amount of flavour that gets extracted.
Hopefully we are now back on the same page
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Post #38 made 13 years ago
Thanks PP,
We are. Next brew I will try again with a mash out and add speciality grain.
We are. Next brew I will try again with a mash out and add speciality grain.
Post #39 made 13 years ago
You are right PP, adding specialty grains at mashout will increase the amount of flavour extracted from those specialty grains.PistolPatch wrote:
2. Adding specialty grains at mash-out (instead of at the beginning of the mash) will not increase efficiency but will probably increase the amount of flavour that gets extracted.
However the primary purpose of doing it is to aid in the reduction of colloidal haze and it can make the mash more efficient by optimizing saccarification, as per this post.
Last edited by hashie on 19 Feb 2012, 08:15, edited 9 times in total.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #40 made 13 years ago
That's a very interesting way to extract flavor from specialty malt.
One way I can think of it to work is that if you don't mash the grains
(in proper saccharification temps)most of it's starch will stay in the beer unconverted
and maybe some of it's more complex(but convertable) sugars will stay unconverted too.
Has anyone else given it a try?
One way I can think of it to work is that if you don't mash the grains
(in proper saccharification temps)most of it's starch will stay in the beer unconverted
and maybe some of it's more complex(but convertable) sugars will stay unconverted too.
Has anyone else given it a try?
Post #41 made 13 years ago
Thanks hashie, I wasn't sure on this as I have only tried it the once so far. Will have to give it another whirl!
After reading your post Kostas, I thought I'd listen to the podcast mentioned above to see if they had any ideas. Unfortunately, they didn't say whether it produced a stronger flavour or not and so the 'science' of why that may occur wasn't mentioned. It's probably one of those mysteries like why first wort hopping measures higher in the laboratory on bittereness but not in real life tasting.
PP
After reading your post Kostas, I thought I'd listen to the podcast mentioned above to see if they had any ideas. Unfortunately, they didn't say whether it produced a stronger flavour or not and so the 'science' of why that may occur wasn't mentioned. It's probably one of those mysteries like why first wort hopping measures higher in the laboratory on bittereness but not in real life tasting.
PP
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Post #42 made 13 years ago
Yeah and we can only assume on some "logical" science behind it,PistolPatch wrote:It's probably one of those mysteries like why first wort hopping measures higher in the laboratory on bittereness but not in real life tasting.
like that the oxidation of the ingredients(humulene, myrcene etc) of the hops, give them water soluble abilities
and so their "taste" can withstand the vigorous boil and it's perceived as less harsh bitterness because of it...
But it could be something completely different.
Those things like the Specialty Steeping vs Mashing really need something like an international homebrewers experiment
Last edited by kostass on 20 Feb 2012, 19:49, edited 9 times in total.
Post #43 made 13 years ago
Kostass,
I've read your post above about twenty times and still can't quite grasp it BUT it's the only post I have ever read that makes even the slightest sense of FWH. I'm amazed!
PP
P.S. I know you are flat-out working on the BIABacus but, if you get a minute, I'd love to get more info on the above. Great thinking! No wonder they have stolen you from us to work on the BIABacus
I've read your post above about twenty times and still can't quite grasp it BUT it's the only post I have ever read that makes even the slightest sense of FWH. I'm amazed!
PP
P.S. I know you are flat-out working on the BIABacus but, if you get a minute, I'd love to get more info on the above. Great thinking! No wonder they have stolen you from us to work on the BIABacus
Last edited by PistolPatch on 21 Feb 2012, 05:01, edited 9 times in total.
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Post #44 made 13 years ago
Ok so I'll continue just for a bit the offtopic here
Couldn't find the science paper though... :(First wort hopping is an old, yet recently rediscovered process consisting of adding a large portion of the finishing hops to the boil kettle as the wort is received from the lauter tun. As the boil kettle fills with wort, the hops steep in the hot wort releasing their volatile oils and resins. The aromatic oils are normally insoluble and tend to volatlize during the boil. By letting the hops steep in the wort prior to boiling, the oils have more time to oxidize to more soluble compounds and a greater percentage is retained during the boil.
Only low alpha acid finishing hops should be used for First Wort Hopping with the amount being less than 30% of the total amount of hops used in the boil. Therefore, hops used for First Wort Hopping should be taken from hops intended for the finishing addition. Although the hops are in the wort during the long boil, the bitterness is increased only slightly. First Wort Hopping results in a more refined hop aroma, a more uniform bitterness (i.e. no harsh tones), and a more harmonious beer overall.
First wort hopping is a mystery. An interesting recent study by Preis and Mitter (Brauwelt Int. 13:308-315, 1995) found that first wort hopping significantly increased IBU's and lowered the content of known hop aroma compounds....
Last edited by kostass on 21 Feb 2012, 05:46, edited 9 times in total.
Post #45 made 13 years ago
Good Day, a link to the above thread is http://www.bacchus-barleycorn.com/catal ... cles_id=22
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Post #46 made 13 years ago
I hadn't thought about this topic for a year, but the other day making a red ale, I decided to mill the spec grains separately and add later in the process. So instead of milling the base and spec grains all in together I just did a base mash using the base malt (5.25kg Thomas Fawcett Halcyon), with a mash at 62°, then raised to 72° for a short dex rest, and added the spec grains (200g Caraaroma and 200g Medium Crystal) at that stage.
The resulting wort looks the picture.
Might indeed try a mashout addition next time, extend the mashout to 20 mins maybe to allow good dissolving and flushing of the coloured goodies out of the husks.
The resulting wort looks the picture.
Last edited by Beachbum on 01 Mar 2012, 11:44, edited 9 times in total.
Post #47 made 13 years ago
Interesting thread.
imho...
An ammendment for if you are using the same specialty grains repeatedly - but not worth it for a one off.
On the basis that low mashin (e.g. 64c) for clean/neat allow more room for hops whereas high mashin (68c) allows for more flavour and mouth feel...
And that with the 10 min mashout, your specialty grain is only halfway on the road to extracting the yummy flavours.
Do a wort purely of your specialty grain/s, but with a high mashin temperature.
No chill into the appropriate size vessels. e.g. if you typically use 10% specialty grain in a 23 litre wort, then 2300ml if your a pedant or ballpark (ish) in appropriate sized containers. end up with 10 brews worth for the future.
Blend it back into your wort.
I reckon (the caveat here, as I'm no rocket scientist) that you may get better flavours as you will have extracted more courtesy of the full mashin time. On the other hand, there is the could you really bothered factor.
Just a thought hashie...
imho...
An ammendment for if you are using the same specialty grains repeatedly - but not worth it for a one off.
On the basis that low mashin (e.g. 64c) for clean/neat allow more room for hops whereas high mashin (68c) allows for more flavour and mouth feel...
And that with the 10 min mashout, your specialty grain is only halfway on the road to extracting the yummy flavours.
Do a wort purely of your specialty grain/s, but with a high mashin temperature.
No chill into the appropriate size vessels. e.g. if you typically use 10% specialty grain in a 23 litre wort, then 2300ml if your a pedant or ballpark (ish) in appropriate sized containers. end up with 10 brews worth for the future.
Blend it back into your wort.
I reckon (the caveat here, as I'm no rocket scientist) that you may get better flavours as you will have extracted more courtesy of the full mashin time. On the other hand, there is the could you really bothered factor.
Just a thought hashie...
Post #48 made 13 years ago
Interesting thoughts Dan, I like the way your thought pattern works above. It wouldn't work for the way I brew, but may work for others.
Just to update, since starting this thread I hold mashout temps for 20 minutes, sometimes longer if I get distracted
I rarely make the same beer one after the other, so making a mash of just specialty grains and then adding that wort to a base malt wort is just making extra work. But this could work for others who brew same same?
I make some beers without any specialty grains and yet still do a mashout to ensure good extraction. If I'm doing a mashout every brew, it's easy to hold back the spec grains until the end.
Just to update, since starting this thread I hold mashout temps for 20 minutes, sometimes longer if I get distracted
I rarely make the same beer one after the other, so making a mash of just specialty grains and then adding that wort to a base malt wort is just making extra work. But this could work for others who brew same same?
I make some beers without any specialty grains and yet still do a mashout to ensure good extraction. If I'm doing a mashout every brew, it's easy to hold back the spec grains until the end.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #49 made 13 years ago
Good Day, I have looked around about "Special Grains at Mashout"... Some call it "steeping", usually done at 165F to 170F for 20-30 minutes.
Hashie, I think you have Made a great IDEA!!!!
Hashie, I think you have Made a great IDEA!!!!
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