Ι really like the idea that steeping the specialty and not mashing get's more taste out of them,
but generally I would like some science behind it.

Some early thinking could be that the main parameters are the time and the temperature.

Regarding temperature, different temperature can get different enzymes to work on the grains(sugar/starch/etc)
or no enzymes at all. So if you mash them low they won't contribute the same character as mashing the on the high
end(~70) as any grain and if you don't mash them at all(like on mash out) they will contribute different
character again.

Regarding time I guess if no enzymes are present the more time the better if enzymes are around, the more the better
if you want the enzymes to work on the grain...

Any more experienced though on the processes is welcome

Hashie,
Just reread this entire post. Have you adjusted your mash temperatures on your base grains since trying this method?

Kostass has just really expanded my thinking on this with varying mash temperatures of the base grains and the possibility of varying mash temperatures on specialty grains compared to adding them at mashout.

Hey there rb,

hashie (and Kostass for that matter) are both MIA at the moment as they have heaps of stuff on at home/work.

As far as I know though hashie hasn't made any adjustments to his normal mash temp.


PP

No problem, I know they are working to help us all.

I'm going to give adding specialty grains at mash out a go today.I'm doing an American amber ale which I'm step mashing- protein rest @ 54 degrees for ten minutes then mash @67 degrees for 60 min then rest at 71 degrees for 15 minutes and mash out at 75 degrees for 10 minutes.
Looking forward to tasting the results

I'm looking forward to reading how iy goes for you Hippy. Best of luck

Thanks mate. It's all cubed and will be going into the fermenter once I've got a starter of pacman ready to go. One thing I did notice with all that unconverted starch in the kettle is there tends to be a lot more gunk stuck on. You could tell it was from the specialty grains I used from the colour of it. Thank god for PBW hey.

Just an update on this beer which finally made it's way to tap. The verdict is IMHO that it adds the complexity of flavour without the added body. In other words if I was to achieve this much malt profile adding my specialty grains to the mash at dough in, I would probably end up with a much chewier beer. Maybe that's because of the step mash I'm not sure. Thoughts people

Hippy wrote:Just an update on this beer which finally made it's way to tap. The verdict is IMHO that it adds the complexity of flavour without the added body. In other words if I was to achieve this much malt profile adding my specialty grains to the mash at dough in, I would probably end up with a much chewier beer. Maybe that's because of the step mash I'm not sure. Thoughts people

Well, I'm a bit unsynchronyzed with brewing thinking lately, but I guess the extra sugars you get from mashing contributes slightly to the body? Could you describe the mash schedule/temps you used?

I believe the sugars produced when mashing specialty grains are of the non-fermentable type which result in more body to the finished beer. The main purpose of the specialty grains (with the possible exception of crystal or cara malts added to increase body) is for the addition of complex flavors. These flavors are extracted by simply steeping the grains the same as one would do if one were making an extract batch so there really is no need to do a full mash (enzyme conversion) of them. Sound about right?

---Todd

Todd, That is correct, many Brewers, Steeping is used by for Flavor and color.

I use the last 20 minutes of the mash to get the color and aroma, I like.

That's definately consistant with my results thanks for the input chaps.
Kostass the mash schedule is described in post #56.

Good Day TLGear, Adding grains for 15-20 minutes at the end of mash, is like "Steeping" there are "Sugars' that add to the mash gravity.

You should add the Grains to the Calculator as "steeping" or as "mash" to get the correct S.G.

[quote]I saw some discussion on whether this should be done in stouts. What do you think about doing this in an RIS? Would you still get the chalky, bitter/roasty flavor from roasted barley and chocolate malt if you only added them at mashout? Would it enhance the flavor with a beer that strong (in flavor) as some have found? Might be worth trying.[quote]

I have found that the flavours from the crystal malts, when added at mashout, are stronger than when added at mash (ask PP ). I think this is because the longer steeping time, when added at mash, allow the flavours to homogenise with the base malts. Using this method allows greater depth in your beers flavour profile and I have found it works on all styles I have brewed.

I did this on my last stout and worked great!

I have held back dark roasted grains to keep the pH from changing and effecting my conversion rate? I have also held my crystal malts back since they need no conversion. Adding them to the mashout seems (to me) to work well! The only thing that bugs me is that the mash (bulk) will absorb some of the newly added grains sugars thus muting them. I was wondering if I should remove the regular mash and put the (excluded) dark roasted and crystal grains in a second bag or hop sack while the (hanging) bag drains into the wort?

Is it such a small amount of (flavor and sugars) lost that all the work would be useless? Sometimes I over think and try to solve problems that aren't really there?

About time you did a post here hashie. How lazy have you been lately?

hashie, I reckon you'd enjoy this Beersmith podcast with Gordon Strong. He's a very big fan of putting the crystals and roasts in at mash out.

Bob, when I did it (once), I thought the specialty malts were more pronounced and that was just adding them in at the mash end with all the other grain. I think hashie finds it's more pronounced as well. Go figure? What do you reckon Lylo?

Would love to do a side by side on this as I've only tried it the once on a Schwartz recipe I brew a lot. (This is all dark grains no crystals though.)

So many things to experiment with .

Looking forward to your next post hashie .

I actually started doing this when I got Brewing Classic Styles. JZ's recipes generally call for 1/2 hr steeping grains, so I figured this would work as well.
It has!
I throw my spec grains in as I start to ramp to mash out, which usually takes about 10 or 12 minutes,then a 15 minute rest. No side by sides for me but i have liked the results.

I'm no scientist either Twinkee, but I'd love to hear what results you get. Making beer is always good experimenting