Measurement Conclusions (based on 6x2 Brews in 3 days)

Post #1 made 13 years ago
Finally got some time to brew thanks to the Easter break here. Decided to go 'all in' and brew 6 recipes, all double-batched, so as to fill my empty beer fridge and create some reserves.

I have two sets of equipment and so was able to do two recipes per day for the last three days. Each boil (recipe) resulted in two batches, one chilled and one no-chilled.

Doing so many brews at double volumes created a measurement opportunity I didn't want to let slide by. (In hindsight, I wish I did. Taking so many measurements form two brews running almost simultaneously is not very relaxing :nup:).

Here's some things I thought I'd measure..

1. Measurement Discrepancies or Variances
2. Difference in gravity at 30, 60, 90 mins and mash-out. (Didn't think of this until Day 2).
3. Variance between different "mash" efficiencies.
4. Active sparging versus BIAB's innate 'passive' sparge.

Measurement Discrepancies or Variances

I'll attach two spreadsheets to this post. One is a summary. The other contains all the raw data and any adjustments made. (These will be like heiroglyphics as I wrote the spreadhseet as I brewed and thought of more things :roll:)

A few points to note...

1. My refractomter proved to be totally inaccurate on day one. Continued using it on days 2 and 3 for 30, 60 and 90 min mash measures.

2. You'll see many other measurement discrepancies or variances. Whilst a single brewer doing measurements on two side by side brews staggered only 10-20 minutes apart will obviously result in several errors, I didn't find the errors or discrepancies surprising. The variances reflect my past experiences.

3. Many other things to comment on here but these are 'fine' detail.

Difference in gravity at 30, 60, 90 mins and mash-out.

Based only on refractometer readings, we can easily see a steady increase in gravity over time. While more figures are needed, any time I have measured this in the past has shown the same thing - a 90 minute mash is certainly more efficient than a 60 minute mash.

Variance between different "mash" efficiencies.

As water/wort expands exponentially, I think it is very hard to take good volume measurements at the boil start and boil end. On some of my measurements, I didn't have time to take measurements immediately at the boil end. Some had to be taken a few minutes later. There is much swelling and contraction around boiling point so it's probably not the ideal place to take volume measurements.

Another thing is that the BIABAcus2's variable efficiency calculation (based on the CE Calc) is predicitng way under actuals. It also doe not consider mash length.

Many factors to be considered here for BIABacus 3 :roll:.

Active sparging versus BIAB's innate 'passive' sparge.

On these 6 brews, I was unable to find that sparging makes more than 2% difference in efficiency. On such big brews, it took a hell of a lot of inconvenience, effort and equipment. I am never sparging again :roll:.

Some Basic Conclusions

1. The above confirms, once again, that a single instrument can't be relied on.
2. The above confirms, once again, that measurements from a single brew can't be relied on.

So...

Clever ways have to be thought of where many brewers can focus on a single measurement and submit their results. I'll ask Kostas if he can come up with a way of dong this while BIABacus3 is being developed. I'm happy to do a few measurements on a single brew but never want to do this many measurements again :lol:.

Even, if we collect the best average figures around, see 1 and 2 above :lol:.

The good news is that I brewed 240 litres in 3 days and will now have some beer in my fridge :thumbs:.
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 08 Apr 2012, 20:21, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #2 made 13 years ago
Good Day PP, For some side information.....The difference in the grains after a Full-volume(true BIAB) and Sparge is.... My Opossums perfer Full-BIAB grains over sparged grains by 100%.
So there must be a lot of sugars left in Full-volume.
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Post #3 made 13 years ago
I fear someone is going to read your post joshua and take it seriously :lol:.

Just in case, any reader should realise that unless joshua has two rigs, the above post obviously isn't valid.

Mind you, tasting spent grain yourself is often interesting. You'll find after a full-volume pure BIAB, there really isn't much left.

I'll do some numbers on why I think there should be little difference between pure BIAB and an active sparge within the next week. In other words, I'll put some science behind my experience. I'll have a bit of a think as well and see if I can think of exceptions.

Now though, I have a leaking fermentor tap. It's always the last brew :roll:,
PP
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Post #4 made 13 years ago
Good Day PP, I Have checked to Full volume S.G and the S.G of the Sparge. as follows
Full Voulme average 1.028
Sparge volume ave. 1.016
I sparge 1/4 the final mash volume.
The grains do have a difference on sugars left behind.
Not very much Difference...For my 13L batches.

But If there is a 1000L batch the difference might be meaningful.
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Post #5 made 13 years ago
Very interesting experiment!
Six brews is not a very small number to reach to some general conclusions
like the need to change a bit the calculation of efficiency
or the proposal of measuring volumes in smaller temp rather than boiling.
PistolPatch wrote: The good news is that I brewed 240 litres in 3 days and will now have some beer in my fridge :thumbs:.
PP
In 3 days you brewed 3 times more than I did in 7-8 days...
I don't feel very pleased with my productivity now :idiot:
Cheers for the experiment mate! :champ:
Last edited by kostass on 09 Apr 2012, 16:57, edited 3 times in total.

Post #6 made 13 years ago
Hey kostass, the fact that you brewed 80 litres in what amounts to a teacup (compared to PP's 2 rigs) gets the win in my book. Impressive amount of brewing by both of you!

---Todd
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Post #7 made 13 years ago
thughes wrote:Hey kostass, the fact that you brewed 80 litres in what amounts to a teacup (compared to PP's 2 rigs) gets the win in my book.
---Todd
lol Todd, it was not a teacup!!!
It was a borrowed pot and it did it's work properly :p
I laughed but butt off with you comment!! :thumbs:
Last edited by kostass on 09 Apr 2012, 22:07, edited 3 times in total.

Post #8 made 13 years ago
Lol! Yep Kostas defintiely wins the prize. If it weren't fopr taking so many measurements and sparfing, my brew days actually would have been pretty relaxing.

Btw, joshua, can you give a bit more info on your last post. I'm unsure of what you mean. For example, say you need 20 litres total water to do a brew. Are you saying that you are running 15 litres through and getting 1.028 and then 5 litres and getting 1.016. Or are you saying that you have done several full-volume brews and several sparged brews using the same grain bill? Think I'll need more info to see what you mean ;).

Some Notes and Errors on My Numbers

Anyone who has been able to decipher my heiropglyphics will see that I did the measurements in a manner where each measurement would be a check on the previous one. However...

1. The first two brews I am fermenting in cubes and I took a guess at the volume in them. Until I empty these two 'fermentors' and then refill them with water up to the same point, I'm not sure what the volume is on these two brews.

2. The no-chilled half of the brews went into cubes that I have never used before so I am uncertain what volume they hold. Until I ferment at least one of them, my figures on how much the cubes hold are based on other measurements and you'll see some nice discrepancies there :).

3. An error: In my first EOBV figures (lines 23-26) of the "Double Batch Summary", I forgot to take away the volume from chiller displacement. I've corrected this in the spreadsheet below. It's a bit of a guess this as unless you actually pulled the chiller out at the end of the boil, you won't really know the true chiller displacement at that wort level.

4. Fixed two things that looked like obvious figure transpositions but these will be confirmed on the final check.

After the Above Corrections

Of course we need many more brews done before we can draw solid conclusions. Now that I have my fridges full, on my next brew day, I'd be happy to have another brewer over (I'll see if I can con Aces High into it) and brew two double batches of the same beer. This will make it a bit more fun and a bit more accurate and each of us can walk out with one chilled and one no-chilled brew.

The best thing though will be to see if Kostas can come up with some way where we can all contribute figures. That will certainly speed the process up.

Cheers,
PP

P.S. Will also make a note in this thread re something else that would be worth investigating.
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Apr 2012, 18:25, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #9 made 13 years ago
One thing I also forgot to mention is that on the three non-sparged brews, I held 2 L back on the first and 5 L back on the 2nd and 3rd as my kettle would have come close to overflowing. These litres were added pre-boil but never touched the grain.

So bear this in mind as well when seeing the 1.0% and 1.1% and 1.4% 'increased' efficiency of the sparged batches.
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Post #10 made 13 years ago
Good Day PP, When I Sparge, I take 5L from the 20L to sparge, or 15L mash/5L sparge, the data is from 15 batches sparged, and 20 batches Full Volume BIAB. The Sparged batch Is lower gravity at the start of boil.

The Grain bill is the same for all the 35 batches (bulk purchase is great)
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Post #11 made 13 years ago
Hey there josh,

That is great that you have done 15 sparges and 20 full-volumes :champ:.

I am a slow learner though sorry :). I'm all confused now :think:. You say the sparged batch is lower gravity at the start of the boil which would mean sparging is less efficient. Have you got any "end of the day" numbers? e.g. How much you ended up with in the fermentor and at what gravity and also kettle trub?

With the 35 batches bulk purchased, what does that mean? I've never heard of this before.

Thanks mate,
PP
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Post #12 made 13 years ago
Damn PP, thats some serious brewing, although its about time you refilled that fridge of yours.
I managed 1 single batch testing my new HERMS recirculating unit over the easter break. It all worked out well, but i did stand back and wonder why I am trying to complicate such a simple process.

Post #14 made 13 years ago
Good Day PP, The final Volume at the start of boil Is 4gal/16L the Full Volume batch at the EIF(effiencny into the Fermenter) is 1.055, and the Sparge is 1.052

The other interesting thing is the Final Gravity Full Volume is 1.010 average, and the Sparge is 1.008.

The sparged batches tastes cleaner, dryer, and have a better finish.

The final volume is always 2.81Gal/10.61L.
The trub ends up, after the wort is separated, at .27L with .75L of recovered wort.

I live 110mile/184Km from the Rebel Brewer LHBS http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/
And purchase 50pound bags of pale malt and Pilsner malt, then 10Kg packs of Bisciut,caramal, and roast grains to total 80Lb/36Kg

I can get about 40-11L batches per purchase.
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Post #15 made 13 years ago
I'm interested in how you did your "active sparge"
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #16 made 13 years ago
Good Day Stux, I squeeze the *($#%# out of the bag at the end of mash.
When I active sparge, I then put the "dry" grains into another pot, and open the bag, pour the 150-160F on the grains, stir for 3-4 minutes and let it sit for 10-12 minutes while I clear/clean the false bottom and add my FWH hops.
Then I Squezze the %$#&^& out of the bag again and dump the Sparge into the Kettle, and take a S.G. sample to check when cool.

This adds around 15 minutes to the brewday, and I now do 2 identical batches, one Full Volume , and one 3:1 Sparge, to collect numbers and "side by side" taste tests.
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Post #17 made 13 years ago
Yes, similar to my method, wondering how PP did it

I use about 20L of sparge and 60L of strike so about 1:3 as well, but the primary factor is the mash volume in the sparge pot has to fit!

I'll boil up the 20L while I'm mashing and let it cool, then drain the bag, squeeze a bit and lower into my seco d pot. Open the bag and tie it and basically remash for another 10 minutes, with a lot of agitation. Then pull the bag and drain/squeeze again

Add sparge to boil pot asap

I've found my results concur with my theory and I'd be surprised if you're only seeing 1-2% gain, unless your doing lower OG brews. The sparge becomes more beneficial as gravity goes up

But are you adding all your sparge before the boil?
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #18 made 13 years ago
Good Day Stux, I end up adding the Sparge at 175F/78C and my desired Gravity is 1.050-1.054.

I like the "Sparge" since it has better charateristics, so maybe something happens duing a "sparge", that you don't get from "Full Volume".

The difference at "EIK" follows thru to the S.G. at bottling, so I have not noticed much in the Flavor, Head, or Color.
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Post #19 made 13 years ago
Aces - Am hoping to rope you in on the next brew day :)

Joshua - I'm still being a bit slow :dunno: . The way I'm reading your posts, you seem to be getting lower gravity from your sparged brews :scratch:.

Stux - On the first two, I basically poured the 80C sparge water through the mash. The vessel I used to so this was really wide so I had good contact with the grain bed. After that I hung the bag and let it drain and then squeezed as normal. On the last one, I did the same but let it soak for a while before draining etc.

If I can rope Aces into coming over, I'll have one more crack at it (on identical brews) but it is a real PITA for me to do here :P.

:peace:
PP
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Post #20 made 13 years ago
PP, perhaps a non optimal sparge then ;)

The CE calc models a dunk sparge (ie a form of batch sparge) what you performed may have been a form of fly sparge and I can't work out how to model that, nor can I see it ever having better results than a dunk sparge without extendeded recirculation

The CE calcs sparge calculation is based on diluting the sugars trapped in the grain matrix. I think the best way to accomplish this is to immerse the drained grain in fresh hot water and rewet, stir/agitate occasionally over 10-15 minutes. I find that after that regime the sparge water gravity had approached the predicted gravity which indicates the sugars in the grain matrix have been dissolved into the sparge water

The truth is there is an efficiency level to the sparge and I suspect it may be similar to a conversion efficiency type number. The current CE Calc assumes 100% sparge efficiency when maybe it should assume 95% or 99%. To work this out I need people to measure their sparge water gravity vs the predicted gravity. I've started doing my own tests in the meantime.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #21 made 13 years ago
I think these sparges were reasonable but you'd have to be there :). (The last one was more of a soak and didn't seem to make any difference from the prior two :dunno:). And,, of course, there are pros and cons to a dunk sparge, a fly sparge and a straight rinse sparge.

As you said above, we need a lot more experiments. I was thinking on this today now that I have recovered from my sparging ordeals of Easter :lol:, and came up with a few ideas....

I have my fridge full and have some spare brews waiting in cubes, so I am happy to do some more tests along as I have company as doing all those measurements and sparging etc on your own is not much fun.

Side by Side Test 4

Two double batches side by side again.

One brew full-volume and the other sparged according to whatever method is wanted. Half of each batch chilled and the other half no-chilled and fermented 24-48 hours apart.

This will give us another sparge test as well as bit of a, 'side by side' on chilled versus no-chill. (That one's for you deebo ;)).

Side by Side Test 5

As above, same recipe but mashed at high OG and then diluted pre-boil.

This will give us a preliminary look at two things. Firstly whether sparging makes a larger difference on high gravity brews. Secondly, it will give us an opportunity to see if there is a major difference between the pre-BIAB traditional no-sparge method and full volume brewing. (It might take a bit of reading to see what I mean with this experiment.)

I personally don't brew high gravity beers so the above is an interesting work around to kill a few 'beers' with one stone and still end up with something I can drink.

Sound Okay?

There are limits to how much experimenting I, or any one person can do. For example, in the above experiments, obviously whoever I brew with will take half of the brews home so some post-fermentation results will be somewhat anecdotal, others not. But, with full fridges, now is a good time for us to make the most out my having two rigs. I think the above experiments are the best I can contribute for now.

Sound like a plan?
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 12 Apr 2012, 18:29, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #22 made 13 years ago
Heh...

And my beer reserves are completely annihilated after the summer party season and now easter!!! :)

must get my NS Ale III on!

(can you believe I drank a mercury cider tonight!!! that's how cronic my beer shortage is ;))
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #23 made 13 years ago
That is shocking Stu! Stop drinking that cider! I now have to go and qualify that last post you wrote :lol:.

Btw, did you base the CE calc soley on Braukaiser? Meant to ask ages ago.
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Post #24 made 13 years ago
The concept was inspired by skmeone's HBT post. Most of the theory came from braukaiser, before I expanded and corrected mistakes. I also did some reading of brewing industry papers about extract and conversion.

Most of the theories were expanded by my own experiments (documented here). The sparging section has not had as much hammering as the main section.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12
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