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Q on using the BIABacus to design your own recipe

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by metalhophead
Hey guys. I know that the biabicus is for scaling down recipes, but as long as you plug in your O.G. it will figure the correct amount of grains No matter what you have in the original grain bill design right? Like I just used the biabicus from a recipe I scaled down and plugged in the grains I wanted to use, but the amounts on the left are almost the same as the right, but the original recipe had a eobv of 6 gallons. I think I'm making sense?
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Post #2 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there Fred,

Couple of things. Firstly, the BIABacus can be used for both scaling and designing, it is not just intended for scaling.

And that's where you are running into problems on that file. I'm not sure where you found the original file and without knowing the context, it is hard to tell what intentions the BIABacus has been used for in this case.

For example, if it was used for scaling a recipe then either the numbers inputted on the left of the grain bill or the EOBV-A in Section D is wrong as you cannot get 23 L of 1.067 end of boil wort from 3.5 kgs (7.7 #) of grain.

If the recipe was being used in design mode, then instead of 23 L being put into Section D, the desired Tinseth should have been used instead. So, very hard to tell what the intentions were in this file. It has my initials in it but there are some things in that file I would have corrected if I had seen it no matter how rushed I was I think. Let me know where you found it if you can Fred.

:peace:
PP

P.S. Note that the posts here might get moved or locked as the BIABacus files are meant to be only published in certain threads atm unless you have permission.
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
by metalhophead
Its from post 987 in the scaling thread. Its Guinges's. I truly don't know why I had it. I must have clicked on it and figured I could plug in numbers and make my own recipe. I'm sorry I always do the wrong thing. How do you toggle between recipe creater mode and scaling mode? I already have ordered the amounts of grains in the spreadsheet. Hopefully I can somehow match the grain amounts to another recipe. I really appreciate all you have done. YOu are the man.

Metalhophead

Post #4 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
No problems Fred. Had a look at post 987 and the file there is very different to the one in post #1 here so someone must have done some playing along the way :P.

The good news is that I can't see anything wrong with brewing what is on the right hand side of your BIABacus in post #1 above. It should be fine. Big hoppy beer - go for it!

As for toggling between recipe creator mode and design mode, there is no such toggle thing. In other programs* as you add a fermentable to a recipe, it increases the OG. There are a lot of disadvantages to this and very few advantages. In the BIABacus, when you design, you make two decisions first - "This is the OG I want and these are the IBU's I want." There are very few situations where this approach has any disadvantages.

Once you have designed a recipe in the BIABacus, anyone else can get your file and scale that recipe to their equipment. Whether you are designing or scaling a recipe, at the end of the day, the left hand side of the BIABacus really only represents the ratio of ingredients. The left hand side can be used to do a lot of other valuable 'work' but it's main purpose is always to act as the basis of ratios in the recipe.

Unfortunately there is not much written on how to use the BIABacus as a designer as yet so your questions are valid. Still trying to work out how that file in post #1 is so different form the original though. Was that you? :lol:

Anyway, just brew what you have on the right hand side of the file in post #1 here. It should be a good beer Fred.

:peace:
PP

* Except for BrewMate where I think there is a way of doing what the BIABacus does and what other programs do to some extent.
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
by metalhophead
Dud you are so awesome. You always respond promptly. I mean I changed the desired volume into the fermentor to 9.46 l and I withheld 3.8 liters from the mash so I could get a higher abv. I feel like I totally grasp the biabicus now. :) I remember when I first came here you were talkinga bout eobv-a and I was like what is this guy talking about! I was wondering how does it recognizes the grain name? I think I typed in "apple" in the grain section and it still said 7.5 Pounds on the right. Haha

Metalhophead

Post #6 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
No probs Fred but I have to hit the hay now :sleep:. Just to finish up...

I still cant't see any relationship between the two files. Yours has two grains and four hop additions whereas the one in post 987 has one of each :scratch:.

Also in your file I can't see where you have held 3.8 litres back from the mash*. That should be in Section W but it is blank. I hope we are looking a the same files!!!

:)
PP

* By the way to increase the ABV, you really just need to increase the OG. You can do this at the top right of Section B where it says, "For this batch though, I'd like to try an OG of..." Using Section W to hold back water from the mash is not the way to go to increase ABV as you will be adding that water back in later and therefore diluting the brew. I suspect this isn't what you meant but thought I better mention it just in case ;).
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Post #7 made 12 years ago
by metalhophead
I keep forgetting you are in Austrailia. Its 3 in the afternoon here. :) Yeah I mispoke. I meant to withold a gallon (3.8 l) to get nice even numbers for the grains and so the mash would fit in my 5 gallon brewpot. When I withold a gallon I get 7.5 for the Maris Otter and .50 for the crystal. When I said "increase abv" I meant that I could mash more grain and get a higher abv. :)

Metalhophead

Post #10 made 12 years ago
by metalhophead
So I think I have figured out why I have missed my og by 7 to 10 points in my first biabs. It looks like my spreadsheets were assuming a 78 percent efficiency when I'm only getting around 65. The biabicus for my citra ipa is 68 percent so think I should be pretty close this time. Is there a maximum water amount that you can dilute with? I'm thinking I can try and brew a lesser alcoholic beer next time and get more than 2.5 gallons.

Metalhophead

Post #12 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
metalhophead wrote:So I think I have figured out why I have missed my og by 7 to 10 points in my first biabs. It looks like my spreadsheets were assuming a 78 percent efficiency when I'm only getting around 65. The biabicus for my citra ipa is 68 percent so think I should be pretty close this time. Is there a maximum water amount that you can dilute with? I'm thinking I can try and brew a lesser alcoholic beer next time and get more than 2.5 gallons.

Metalhophead
Hey there Fred,

This will be my last post here for at least a few days as I am flat out. I read your post above this morning though and wanted to make sure you get headed in the right direction before I go dark :P.

In your post, you said you are going to change the 'efficiency' because you weren't getting matching what was predicted.it. Firstly, if I haven't asked you to already, can you please study or ask someone what the difference is between 'Efficiency into Kettle (EIK)' and 'Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF)' as these are two entirely different animals.

Because I know your posts, I know that you are referring to EIK.

One of the big advantages of BIAB is that there really shouldn't be too much variance between one brewers EIK and another. The BIABacus further facilitates making EIK a useful figure by adjusting it according to what gravity brew you are doing.

What I am saying here is that your actual EIK should not be varying so drastically from what the BIABacus estimates. 65% is a shockingly low EIK figure for a 1.049 beer. In other words, there is something going wrong at your end and we need to find it. Over-riding the BIABacus defaults is not the answer and...

Unless you find what is causing your low EIK, your citra IPA will have the same problem. One big problem for new brewers (and lots of old ones too) is realising that EIK is not a constant. Pretty much every post on every other forum and every other software site totally disregards the fact that big beers always have a lower EIK than smaller beers.

...

Here's what I think you need to do before you brew this IPA...

1. Firstly let us know exactly how many brews you have had a problem with. One? Two? More?

2. Secondly, post as much as you can about what your estimated and actual volume and gravities were.

3. Post at least one of your BIABcus files with your actuals. (Remember how I couldn't read that file you posted in another thread as it was saved as an .xlsx file instead of an .xls file? You will have to get a clean copy of the BIABacus and re-type in all your numbers so as we can see your file clearly and look for any obvious errors.)

3. Work very carefully through the 9 Common Reasons for a Low Efficiency Reading.

Hopefully some others will be able to help you more on this but make sure you do the above as well. The more work you do and more info you post, the faster you will find the problem/s and there is definitely something not right.

:luck: and :peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 03 Apr 2013, 20:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #13 made 12 years ago
by metalhophead
Thanks man. I brewed this two days ago. I hit 1.061 (1.067 was the target) This was the closest I have gotten to my target out of the three biabs I have brewed.

Chinook IPA-1.054---target 1.061
Witbier-----1.040---target 1.050
Citra-------1.061---target 1.067

For the citra I squeezed the bag pretty good so I think thats why it was my best one. I believe I may be adding a smidge to much water to start. I buy 2.5 gallon jugs and pour the whole thing in and its always a little more than my dipstick. Still I think its negligible and my dipstick probobly isn't perfect... If I am off from one of the recipe's volumes should I correct it? I'm never sure what to do here. Right now I don't fix the volumes. Still they have only been slightly off. I have had no trouble with my mash temperature. All of my mashes have held temperature. Anways here is my Citra Biabicus.
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Post #15 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hey there Fred,

When we are looking at something like this we really need to to know gravities and volumes. The file above gives us that which is good but the gravity info on the three other brews doesn't tell us much as we have no accompanying volumes.

So, basically we only have one brew to look at. See how in your file, it says the estimated EOBE is 68.8% and your actual was 65.4%? This tells me that there is no efficiency problem - you are well within the ballpark.

What we are seeing though, on this one file, is that one definite cause of the low gravity is too much volume. You definitely need to measure out the water you start with accurately otherwise you will always be missing your targets.

Without more numbers, it is hard to advise what to do on your next brew apart from measuring your water out correctly. Also, it's always easier to dilute at the end of the boil than to add DME so maybe, to increase the chance of this happening, you could also over-ride your evaporation rate and set it to 2.9 l.

See how that goes Fred.

Finally, when you say you have had no problem maintaining mash temps, how many thermometers do you have? You can't rely on s single thermometer's accuracy unfortunately. Hopefully you went through the checklist link I posted above and also saw the link on thermometers that number 3 on the list contained. It's important to go through that list very carefully.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 07 Apr 2013, 20:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #16 made 12 years ago
by metalhophead
I will get another thermometer of another brand to see if the temps are the problem. When I used to do partial mash kits I always ended up hitting my Starting gravity spot on so I dont thinkkkk thats the problem. I mean could it be the crush of the grains I'm getting? Its not clear to me what the appropriate crush is. Something you linked me to before said to not do a double crush. Right now I am just geting a basic crush from my local homebrew store. I have also changed my evaporation rate like you said. I think I might also do a little sparge with that gallon that I'm witholding and then I can dilute if I overshoot. I've already made my next recipe which is similar to my citra. This time I'm going to use 2 row and a different level of crystal. My Witbier that I brewed turned out excellent. :)

Metalhophead

Post #17 made 12 years ago
by Yeasty
Hi Fred

I have one of these Here Its a lovely thermo and waterproof.

As to your crush, my grain is pre-crushed at the maltsters and has only gone through the mill once. What you are looking for is that 95-100% of your grain is at least cracked, some will be totally crushed, some well split and some just cracked. As long as the insides can get wet I think your ok.

Note on your efficiencies and from what I've picked up on your previous threads ( sorry I only skim read them as I'm trying to catch up on stuff) Holding back some water is a good idea, better to be over gravity and dilute back than be under and have to boil more.

:luck:

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 12 Apr 2013, 04:00, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #18 made 12 years ago
by metalhophead
I'm brewing again tonight. Here is my
Original Gravity (OG): 1.069
IBU's (Tinseth): 69.7
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 1.01
Colour:
ABV%: 6.23

Efficiency into Kettle (EIK): 66.6 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 57.1 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 60 mins at 67 C = 152.6 F
Boil: 60 min
Ferment: 10 days at 19 C = 66.2 F

Volumes & Gravities

Total Water Needed (TWN): 16.26 L = 4.3 G
Volume into Kettle (VIK): 14.39 L = 3.8 G @ 1.055
End of Boil Volume - Ambient (EOBV-A): 11.05 L = 2.92 G @ 1.069
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 9.47 L = 2.5 G @ 1.069
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 8.77 L = 2.32 G @ 1.021 assuming apparent attenuation of 70 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

88.5% 2 row 3422 grams = 7.54 pounds
11.5% crystal malt (60l) 443 grams = 0.98 pounds







The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

23.9 IBU Centennial Pellets (8.7%AA) 14.2 grams = 0.5 ounces at 60 mins
23.7 IBU Centennial Pellets (8.7%AA) 28.4 grams = 1.001 ounces at 15 mins
17.3 IBU Centennial Pellets (8.7%AA) 28.4 grams = 1.001 ounces at 10 mins
4.8 IBU Centennial Pellets (8.7%AA) 14.2 grams = 0.5 ounces at 5 mins





Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash) for 60 mins at 67 C = 152.6 F
Water Held Back from Mash: 3.8 L = 1 G





Water Added After Final Lauter: 3.8 L = 1 G



Miscellaneous Ingredients








Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Hopsock Used: N

Chilling Method: Immersion Chiller (Employed 0 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation& Conditioning

Fermention: Safale US-05 for 10 days at 19 C = 66.2 F






Condition for 1 days.
Consume within 1 months.

Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer

Non-insulated mash expected to drop 10 F over 80 minutes.

Maxi-BIAB Adjustments

Water Held Back from Mash: 3.8 L = 1 G

Water Added After Final Lauter: 3.8 L = 1 G
Last edited by metalhophead on 18 Apr 2013, 01:30, edited 2 times in total.
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