My first recipe (and brew)

Post #1 made 10 years ago
I apologize in advance for the utter display of ignorance that I will show off in this thread, but please keep in mind that I've never brewed a beer before, or formulated a recipe before. I barely understand the basic science behind it all yet, but I'm trying.

Anyway, let's get on with the show. I would like to make my own beer based on these loose guidelines, because I have been told that it would produce a beer similar to something I already know that I like:
Dobbelt-Øl: While the traditional Paasbiers might have bumped up the 1.8–2.8% alcohol levels of regular Hvidtøl just a tad, evidence exists for stronger types. We’re talking about a sweet, porterish brew, very rich and nourishing. Despite this characterization, Hvidtøl (literally, “white beer”) was brewed with a large proportion of very pale, even undermodified, malt. So start with a base of pilsner malt. Aim for a gravity of 1055 (13.6°P) and subtract the contributions of the other ingredients to figure out how much pilsener malt (or pale extract) you need to make up the difference. Historically, these beers usually contained a certain amount of dark caramel syrup*, so add a pound or so, right into the kettle. A pound of dark crystal malt like Special B adds an inner richness, and a small amount (1/4 to 1/2 lb) of German röstmalz such as Carafa II will add a ruddy depth.

Hopping should be modest, say about 25 IBU or so. I like a neutral tasting hop such as Northern brewer for chocolatey beers. Speaking of chocolate, we’re within striking range, so if you want to turn this into the ultimate liquid chocolate bunny, add a pound or so of cocoa nibs to the secondary. Alternately, a few grams of caraway take a cue from aquavit and can add a characteristic Scandinavian touch.

Quantities discussed are for five-gallon batches.
Original source: Randy Mosher, http://allaboutbeer.com/article/a-spring-fling-thing/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personally I would like to try my hand at making this. But I'm a complete newbie, I've never brewed a batch of beer before, and I can't figure out how to make it into an actual recipe. I simply don't understand how and the calculations behind it.

The facts that I can gather from the text:

5 gallon yield.
I need pilsner malt (amount undetermined).
Dark caramel syrup - 1 lbs.
Special B - 1 lbs.
Carafa 2 - 0,25-0,5 lbs.
Northern brewer hops - (amount undetermined) 25 IBU.

(I don't want to add chocolate, as it's not part of the kind of beer I'd like to replicate)

His description says:
Start with a base of pilsner malt. Aim for a gravity of 1055 (13.6°P) and subtract the contributions of the other ingredients to figure out how much pilsener malt (or pale extract) you need to make up the difference.

I would like to use something called Fuglsang Pilsner Malt if possible. It is made by a company local to where I live, and I would like to support them. I don't know what sort of data you need about the product, but this is what I've been able to find:

(I've tried to translate it into English as best I can, forgive me if some of the terms are incorrect).
Danish base malt - 3,7 EBC.
Specifications:
Water content: 4,3%
Extract(dry matter/solids): 81,4%
Wort color: 3,7 EBC
Protein (dry matter/solids): 9,7%

Pardon my ignorance, but how do I calculate how much pilsner malt to add, with the amount of the other ingredients already being determined? How much Carafa 2 would you add? Should I start with the lowest amount of Carafa, and increase later to see what I like best? How do I calculate how much hops to add in weight, and last but not least, what sort of yeast would you use for a brew like this? I would like the end product to be sweet.

With regards to the other ingredients, the following brands are available to me:
Candico candy syrup
Castle Malting Special B (Extr. 77%, 260-320 EBC, numbers taken from data sheet)
Weyermann Carafa Type 2 (Extr. 65%, 1100-1200 EBC, numbers taken from data sheet)
Northern Brewer hops

Would I later be able to convert these numbers into a much smaller recipe, since I only have the equipment suited for mini-BIAB?

I need your help to answer these questions. I apologize for being annoying :P
Last edited by Sillybuns on 01 Apr 2015, 03:50, edited 1 time in total.

Post #2 made 10 years ago
Welcome to the forum sillybuns. :salute:

Let's start with your size kettle. Measure the the diameter and height in centimeters. Is it a standard straight sided kettle?

This will determine how much beer you can make.

MS
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Post #3 made 10 years ago
SillyBuns,

I wrote up a Half-Baked BIABACUS to get you started.
Image
This needs your Kettle size corrected, and grain Ratios Adjusted, and a Hop Schedule, I used FWH.

Please ask any questions you have....There will be Many.
Image
Good Luck.
Last edited by joshua on 01 Apr 2015, 04:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #4 made 10 years ago
I wholeheartedly thank both of you for your help so far.

I do not fully know the size of my kettle yet - I am yet to receive it (I ordered it online), but I should receive it at the start of next week, at which point I will measure it. What I do know already is that it has a 10L capacity according to the manufacturer, and a diameter of 24cm. But I don't know if this diameter is inside or outside measurements. I will measure the diameter and height myself as soon as I get it.

I am at work right now, so I have not had a chance to look at your file yet joshua, but I will look at it when I get home, and then report back with all of my questions. You are quite correct - I do have lots of questions, being a complete newbie. :P

This is a picture of the kettle:
Image
Is this what is referred to as a straight sided kettle in the BIAB system?
Last edited by Sillybuns on 01 Apr 2015, 18:14, edited 1 time in total.

Post #5 made 10 years ago
SillyBuns, yep, that is almost a straight sided kettle, the volume will change a little in a non-linear way, but should be Close.
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Post #6 made 10 years ago
I've now had a chance to look at your BIABacus, and you are quite right, I do indeed have a few questions.

As you mentioned, I've tried to adjust the grain ratios to specifically replicate the ratios mentioned by Randy Mosher. I've adjusted them based on the kettle size you typed in, as I don't have mine yet, and therefore don't know the measurements yet. I've also corrected the VIF to 18,93L as that's the closest we can get in metrics to the 5 Gallons mentioned in the recipe. I've also corrected the OG from 1,050 to 1,055 so that it meets the requirements of the recipe.

The grain ratios have been adjusted to the following:
Pilsner malt - (79,7%, 4002g / 8,82 lbs)
Carafa 2 - (2,3%, 114g / 0,25 lbs)
Special B - (9%, 454g / 1 lbs)
Dark caramel syrup - (9%, 454g / 1 lbs)

I think the ratios are correct now and in accordance with the recipe. Do you agree with me? I have 1 lbs Special B, as mentioned in the recipe, 1 lbs dark caramel syrup as mentioned in the recipe, and 1/4 lbs carafa 2 as mentioned in the recipe. All based on an OG of 1,055 and a VIF of 5 gallons, as mentioned in the recipe.

I have enclosed my BIABacus. Have I understood things correctly?

I have a few more questions, which I'll try to write in my next post. I do apologize if my English is a bit clumsy or difficult to understand - I am from Denmark, so English is not my native language.

Thanks for your help so far!
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Post #7 made 10 years ago
So here are a few more questions, although I am sure I will have more later:

Conversions
Like mentioned previously, I am looking to get into mini BIAB, so the amount of beer I'll be able to (and want to) produce will be significantly smaller than the 5 gallons that the recipe is initially meant for. When I've completed the recipe for the original 5 gallons, will I then be able to simply change the VIF to, say, 4 liters and will the BIABacus then automatically adapt the recipe to suit the smaller amount of beer, but keep the same ratios etc. for each ingredient? What I'm asking is whether the recipe will be completely the same, just with a lesser volume of beer.

Boil time
First of all, why did you choose a 90 minute boil time compared to 60 minutes? I'm not asking because I disagree with your choice, I am just trying to learn really. I've seen some recipes calling for a 60 minutes, others for 75, others for 90, and I'm left wondering what difference the time makes to the taste.

Hops and hop scheduling
Secondly, you mentioned hop scheduling. What does FWH mean? How did you determine how much hops to add? I know from the recipe that we want an IBU of 25, but what I can't figure out is how I go from that fact to actually figuring out how much I need to add in the form of hops. Also, the recipe mentions that hopping should be modest - and that leads me to a perhaps tricky question. Does he refer to the IBU when he says modest, or does he refer to the hop scheduling? In other words, I've read that you can add hops either for bittering or for flavor and aroma, or for both. When he says modest, is he talking about bittering (which I assume is expressed through IBU), or taste/aroma? Wouldn't the answer to that question determine when to add the hops - whether to boil them for a long time or add them at the end of the boil?

Dark caramel syrup
He mentions adding a pound of dark caramel syrup "right into the kettle", does that mean that the syrup is supposed to be added during the boil? Is it typically added at the beginning of the boil, or say, for only 10 minutes at the end, or something completey different?

Yeast
The beers that this recipe is inspired from are traditionally quite sweet, I believe. The "Hvidtøl" that he mentions in his recipe is a traditional Danish beer. It is quite dark, and very sweet, and it is this type of beer that led me down the path of wanting to try this recipe. So my question is the following: are there certain kinds of yeasts that will ensure that the beer will be sweet? Yeasts that will enhance the natural sweetness of the beer. Forgive me if my question is stupid, but I don't know much about yeast, and I assume some yeast strains leave a product drier than others.

How does one determine how much yeast to add, or doesn't it make a difference?

Those are some of my initial questions, I am sure I will have more later.
Last edited by Sillybuns on 02 Apr 2015, 16:51, edited 1 time in total.

Post #8 made 10 years ago
Welcome to the forum sillybuns :salute:,

I saw your thread yesterday but ran out of time to reply. Before we get to your latest BIABacus and questions, I just want to clarify a few things above.

Recipe Integrity

Most recipes, even form respected brewing authors, are not published clearly enough to copy accurately unfortunately so don't think you are missing something if there seems to be a lack of info. It is extremely frustrating and this site has put a lot of work into addressing this issue. The BIABacus, Clear Brewing Terminology ensure that recipes have a high level of integrity (ability to be read, understood and scaled accurately).

This recipe, even though it is from Randy Mosher, has quite a few integrity problems. You picked up on a big one - Start with a base of pilsner malt. Aim for a gravity of 1055 (13.6°P) and subtract the contributions of the other ingredients to figure out how much pilsener malt (or pale extract) you need to make up the difference. Just ignore that because it is not right or, if I read it in a certain way, it is at best extremely confusing and unnecessary. Just keep the percentages of malts the same which I believe you ended up don g anyway so good on you!

(Read through some of the stickies in the BIABrewer.info and BIAB for New Members on Clear Brewing Technology and recipe integrity later.)

Your Kettle

Your kettle is really too small to even do small batches. If you can cancel or change the order, I would try to do that immediately.

For small batches, see if you can find a 19L / gal thin walled pot. They are very cheap and good enough to get you started. This is about the smallest practical size pot to use but even it poses problems. Even trying to get 5 gallons into fermentor of a normal strength beer from a 19 L pot is ridiculously difficult and labour and equipment intensive (you need more pots and have to manipulate water and bags of grain in a very messy manner). A 19 L kettle using pure BIAB with a few easy manipulations will probably get you about 12 L of a normal strength beer into fermentor.

Regardless, there is no way around this,your 10 L kettle is too small unfortunately.

Your File

Firstly, as mentioned above, that was the right decision to work on the malt percentages. Secondly, you have also done a really nice job in Section Y. Good job :thumbs: (In most all-grain recipes, you can actually forget Section Y as the auto-estimate comes out pretty much the same as if you put in all the individual specs.)

See the red warnings on the BIABacus above sections A, B and K? They are telling you that this batch is impossible to brew in its current form. You are asking for too much beer from that size kettle and your real kettle is about a third the size :argh:.

In Section D, only the 25 on the second line should be displayed. The 18.93 on the first line should be deleted as we actually have no idea of it from the infor we have been given. (That might have been Josh forgetting to delete it from an existing file.)

We are lacking so much info from the original recipe - mash temperature, ferment times, yeast strain etc. - I really don't know where to start. (See What to Do Now below)

Other Questions

Boil Time: A boil time of 90 mins is always recommended as the safest, highest quality boil time on this site. See Stages and Length of Boiling here.

Hops: Forget FWH (first wort hopping). It is not in the original recipe and it is an advanced hopping method that can produce certain effects in some beer styles using some hops. There is a lot of poor info around on it and it should not be played with unless the original recipe asks you to or you have many brews under your belt.

The right hand side of Sections C and D tell you how much of each ingredient you will need to use for your batch. For example, in your attached file, you would need 23.6 grams of Northern Brewer with an AA% of 9.0% to achieve 25 IBU's on this batch. If you could only buy Northern Brewer with 8.0 AA% then you would type 8.0 on the right hand side and then you would see that you would need to buy 26.6 grams as it is weaker than the hop used by the original brewer.

As for the modest comment, who knows what he means? It's a bit like saying, "Make sure the soup is not too salty. Maybe a pinch or two." Wtf?

Syrup: I don't know what he means by right into the kettle. It could mean anything.

Yeast: The recipe should tell you what yeast to use. Without doing a lot of research. I would have no idea what to use. Amount of yeast is important and there are dried and liquid forms. And this is where yu come into another problem with tiny batches. A liquid yeast costs a lot. A dried yeast costs about a third of a liquid yeast. These will usually be pitched onto about 5 gallons of beer. If you can only brew one gallon, you are wasting the rest of that yeast as it can't be kept without sophisticated methods.

What To Do Now

I think we need to get you on the path of right advice and high quality information. You will get that here. Firstly, I would forget this recipe. It gets worse every time I look at it. When are the hops added for example????

The first decision you need to make is, "Do you really want to make beer?" You will need to buy a minimum amount of equipment of a certain size. You'll need to decide how much you want to brew, how often? It is time-consuming. In some situations, a better hobby could be buying and tasting specialty beers.

So, these are the questions to consider first and after that, we need to look at equipment.

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 02 Apr 2015, 18:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #9 made 10 years ago
Well thank you for your reply.

Perhaps you are right - this project seems too advanced for a beginner, and I might just end up getting frustrated rather than enjoying the process, because I've set myself goals that are too high from the start.

With regards to the pot, there is still time to cancel the order. The only reason why I've chosen a kettle this small, is because I only have a normal household stove, and I didn't think a bigger one would get proper heat from my stove. But I might be wrong. What I figured was just that if the kettle was much too big for my stove, then I wouldn't get proper heat distribution in the pot, but I don't know. I have an induction stove, and the biggest induction plate on the stove is 22cm in diameter. Would a big, 19 litre pot really get proper heat on a stove like this? I would rather not have to invest in a big gas setup. If this project is impossible for me with my current equipment, then I may indeed have to consider whether I can afford the investment.

Post #10 made 10 years ago
Sillybuns,

PP is correct, about you pot/kettle, But I have to say BIABACUS does a great job Scaling Ingredients, and Volumes

Here is a 4L/1 gallon batch size with a Standard Hop Schedule, Check that the Mash Size 9.6L in a 10L pot, Be very Careful.

If you change the boil length to 75 Minutes there are NO volume Issues, try it!!

I use a Cheap(very) 12L stockpot for 4L VIP, and it works well for Gravities to 1.060sg
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Post #11 made 10 years ago
It is possible for me to get an 18L kettle rather cheaply - actually cheaper than the 10 litre one. I am not sure I can get a 19 litre one, the next step up seems to be around 24 litres or 30 litres. But this 18 liter one has a diameter of 31,5cm. Assuming that this is the outside diameter of the bottom of the kettle (I don't know, as I haven't seen it in person), wouldn't it be too big for my stove if I wanted to heat the water properly?

Post #12 made 10 years ago
SillyBuns,

If your going to stay with a 4L-5L Volume into Packaging, the 18L kettle will be Fine.
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The 18L kettle can give your recipe 7.5L into the fermenter, and 6.95L into packaging.
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Last edited by joshua on 02 Apr 2015, 19:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #13 made 10 years ago
I think we still need to find out what Sillybuns wants to brew. Are you happy spending four or five hours brewing just 4-5L of drinkable beer? If you aren't brewing often, the yeast will go to waste.

I would recommend going for the 24L kettle which will make everything manageable at least and give you a reasonable batch size. 30 L will probably be too much (but inductions are massively powerful) and 18 L is limiting you.
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Post #14 made 10 years ago
Well, for me it is not so much about brewing massive amounts of beer. As long as I can make something that I like, that is what gives me pleasure. The process itself of cooking/making something also gives me pleasure and pride, and my thought was that once I'm experienced, I could always upgrade the gear if I felt that it was necessary. Up until now I've been brewing simple fruit mead, based on wild fermentation, and I've never made more than 5 litres at a time. That has taken a few hours every time I've made it, because of all the fruit I had to prepare, the cleaning and so on, and I really didn't mind that it only yielded 5 litres, because I enjoyed the process so much.

I wouldn't mind buying a 24 litre kettle - not at all. As long as it's compatible with my stove, then I'm a happy man. That's the only thing that has made me think I needed to limit the batches to a small size. I thought my stove wouldn't be able to handle more than small kettles.

Post #15 made 10 years ago
SillyBuns, Check how long, a "X" amount of water take to boil on your Stove.

At some point, the Kettle will not get to boil due to Heat lost from the Larger Surface area.

JMHO BTDT.
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