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Landlord variant

Post #1 made 15 years ago
by Ralph
Picked up some hops in Brisbane yesterday so I'm farting around with the Landlord recipe again, wanting to try a couple of things:
i) 1882PC Thames Valley II yeast instead of 1469PC
ii) Higher mash temp, I'm aiming for a pretty dry beer but for methey've been just too dry at 64

So starting today, the next few batches will be
95% GP
3 % Caraaroma
2% Aromatic
Mash for 90 minutes at 66
10% grain bill as sugar

20IBU Fuggles @ 90
10IBU EKG @ 20
2g/L Styrian Goldings @ flame- out
15g Styrian Goldings (in a 23L batch) dry hop or hop tea after fermentation is almost complete

Seeing as it is an ESB, I'll try the two hour boil like Pat suggested and skip caramelising some wort (I'm also getting lazy...).
Last edited by Ralph on 24 Apr 2010, 11:32, edited 34 times in total.
[center]Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes[/center]

Post #2 made 15 years ago
by hashie
Looks a good recipe Ralph. I don't normally dry or late hop my ESB, so I'd be interested in what you think of this when it is drinking.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #3 made 15 years ago
by Ralph
Hi hashie,
this is actually batch #26 (not a typo, that's 'twenty- six'! And that's only since I started counting them- there were a few before the official #1)! The Landlord is my house ale, ever since I was lucky enough to land the right yeast (1469PC) nearly a year ago it is what I've brewed most of the time, or variants thereof. I have only just started using spec malts again, was doing it as 100% base malt with decoction and caramelising wort but while I learnt a lot about base malt characteristics I didn't get the malt profile I was after so went back to using the spec malt. In this recipe I'm adding a dribble of aromatic, I have a bit to use up and I prefer it over melanoidin but in the long run it will not be included.

I've been happy with 2g/L late kettle hops, a Landlord has to have some late Styrian spiciness IMO, obviously this wouldn't suit all ESBs, but a Landlord it does. Only sometimes will add some more during fermentation, I'm not completely sold on dry hopping either, in this one a larger, flame- out addition is quite OK instead, but I've also topped up the late component when it was found wanting, a dose of hops tea a day or two before bottling.
Beachbum made a version with just 60 minute hops additions IIRC, might've even won a prize with it? So, I guess there's no right or wrong answer, just might take a few goes at it to find the method that suits your own tastes.

Actually, as an aside, and I don't want to name- drop, but the Landlord originator and keeper of much Landlord wisdom over at AHB (Dr S) came to the same conclusion I did about the malt bill, compared to his original with GP, munich and choc malt (which is quite an OK brew in its own right), the 3% caraaroma version is just brilliant and it also needs more late Styrian. We both reached that point independently though, but an amazing coincidence and did my own confidence the world of good!

I find the 10% sugar quite useful in limiting the overt graininess, thins it out ever so slightly and balances it well. I find 100% malt ESBs can become too malt- dominant, particularly mashed low for a dry ESB, at least the way I do them. I am not sure if it was supposed to be 10% of the grain bill as sugar or 10% of the fermentables in the wort, but for me 10% of the grain bill works well but also ensures that I can still magically wring a 23L fermenter- full from just the 19L stockpot. The batch I did yesterday should yield 24L of 1.055 (17L of 1.078), which is perfect and leaves a bit left over for a couple of starters.
[center]Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes[/center]

Post #4 made 15 years ago
by hashie
Good reply Ralph and interesting how you came to your conclusions on that beer.

For me I do my ESB as follows;

85.55% Ale malt
13.31% Munich
1.14% Chocolate
1 tsp salt
Mashed @ 64C 90 minutes

90 minute boil
17.9 IBU Goldings East Kent @ 60
10.8 IBU Goldings East Kent @ 20
3.0 IBU Goldings East Kent @ 5

Fermented with Danstar Nottingham Ale Yeast

This turns out a nice beer, but my house beer is an Irish red ale. It's in the recipe section called Red Beer'd.

I find the teaspoon of salt in the mash for the ESB helps to bring out the malt profiles in the finished beer. For my tastes I wouldn't mash any higher than 64 as I like my beers to have a drier finish, I can't stand beers that have residual sweetness, it makes them sticky icky.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #5 made 15 years ago
by Ralph
Many thanks hashie, in my previous post I meant to ask for your recipe!

IIRC, that ESB grain bill is similar to Dr S' original Landlord- so very interesting! A long, low mash would be perfect for avoiding the lingering, icky sweetness and I might give all- EKG a go too, for something different.
Even though I have checked my thermometer at freezing and boiling (adjusted for altitude too!), mashing at 64 I have been getting beers that are just too dry, even with 1469 which isn't the world's best attenuator (reputedly 67-71%), they are still getting down as far as 1.006 and always 1.010 or lower. So I've lifted the mash temp a bit and will give 1882 a whirl.

But then I get the odd one which behaves completely different and confounds all the theories I've developed in the previous few dozen batches and turns everything on its head! Either a stunner when unexpected or the converse with a crap batch when I'm sure eveything should be peachy. :? Anyone else find that? It drives me nuts sometimes! :shock:
[center]Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes[/center]

Post #6 made 15 years ago
by hashie
Getting a brew down to 1.010 or 1.006 is as good an attenuation as you could hope for. Raising your mash temp will reduce attenuation not increase it, so expect your FG to be higher than 1.010

I have a brew (Black IPA)about to be kegged in the next couple of days. It is sitting on Nottingham ale yeast, fermented at 14-16c OG 1.060, current SG 1.010, so pretty good attenuation from Nottingham.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #7 made 15 years ago
by Ralph
Yeah hashie, I'm thinking it is giving me too much attenuation though, when I mashed this sort of thing around 66 and above it would pull up around 1.012 consistently, only occasionally 1.010 and would not be so dry like I've been getting lately. The 1469 I didn't think would hyperattenuate, I'm wanting SGs of around 1.012 again as many of the latest ones have been too dry.

On paper at least, 1882 is likely to be even more thorough, so I could be going one step forward and one step back for what I want that is- I'm probably getting away from the major Landlord characteristics in doing this, but I've flogged one end of the mash temperature scale with this recipe and am getting a bit tired of it now. I'm happy to give it a whirl though, I've been using 1469 almost exclusively for about six months. In fact, I have some fresh slants if anyone is interested*, just reply here or PM me.

* Edit: Slants available: Wyeast 1469PC West Yorkshire, 1768PC English Special Bitter, 1882PC Thames Valley II, will soon have some 2247PC Euro Lager as well. Happy to share, particularly these PC strains and the slants post with ease- no need to refrigerate etc. plus they're easy to grow out- just empty into 100ml of cooked 1.040 wort, then double every day for four days.
The 1768 makes a mean stout, I really should've used it in the Ball- Roller Stout.
Last edited by Ralph on 25 Apr 2010, 11:48, edited 32 times in total.
[center]Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes[/center]

Post #8 made 15 years ago
by Ralph
Today's landlord variant, mk32 or thereabouts.
4.5 kg (94%) Bairds Perle
0.14 kg (3%) Caraaroma
0.14 kg (3%) Caramalt
1 tsp gypsum (mash)
64 or 65 degC for 90 or longer (while walking the dog, the girls might find some nice boy dog chaps to flirt with!)
Probably the same hops as before and have gone back to 1469 again for a bit.

Stovetop BIAB, dunk sparge/ mashout as usual, 4.7kg of malt so a fairly concentrated boil, should yield 23L of 1.050 with <10% sugar, won't be caramelising any wort though.

Hoping to add some of GP's richness with the Caramalt- Bairds Perle/ Pale Ale is quite a good, clean ale malt but no real emphasis in any particular sector. I'm just using the last of a bag up.

Still have those slants BTW, 2247 is grown out successfully so feel free to drop me a line if you're wanting any of them. Some should be en route to you guys over in the west this week, finally have some Ball Roller Stout in PETs as well!
[center]Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes[/center]

Post #9 made 15 years ago
by Ralph
And here comes another one, more fiddling around with the specialty malts:
5.20 kg 94% TF GP
0.11 kg 2% Caraaroma
0.11 kg 2% Caramalt
0.11 kg 2% Pale Wheat
Rainwater, 4g Gypsum, 4g Table salt, 63.5 C for a couple of hours, usual hops. Probably add 0.28 kg 5% of the grain bill as sugar at pitching.

5.53kg- pretty big grain bill for mashing in a 19 L stockpot, hey? :o A piece of cake! :D
[center]Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes[/center]

Post #10 made 11 years ago
by pat86
Don't mean to drag up an old thread but Ralph 5.5kg of grain - respect! I am using a pretty similar method to you and that seems crazy!
Obviously you brew a tonne like this and I have seen many quotes of around 4KG max for Maxi BIAB, but where have you found the limits of - easy/ good beer in 19L pots?

I'd be interested to know what you thought the upper limit of grain kg is and also maybe S.G. as that would also take a hit the higher you go.

I am sure I will have some maxi biab decoction questions for you too once I have given it a try - maybe my next brew or two...
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