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NEED SERIOUS HELP - Norway 6.6 g IPA recipe to 5 gal

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by ASCbrewery0913
All,

I am new to this and I need someone to review my BIABacus calcs. This is the first time i have tried using this thing. I like it but im having trouble

I will be doing a IPA from Norway called Nogne O IPA - Pure BIAB

I use a 15.5g Keggle for my brews

I have attached the orignal recipe. any and all comments are NEEDED :)


[center]BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3 RECIPE REPORT[/center]
[center]BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.[/center]
[center](Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)[/center]
[center]Nogne O IPA[/center]

Recipe Overview

Brewer: Andrew Clancy
Style: American Pale Ale
Source Recipe Link:

Original Gravity (OG): 1.074
IBU's (Tinseth): 64
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 0.86
Colour:
ABV%: 6.68

Efficiency into Boil (EIB): 90 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 81.8 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 60 mins at 64 C = 147.2 F
Boil: 90 min
Ferment:

Volumes & Gravities
(Note that VAW below is the Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) less shrinkage.)

Total Water Needed (TWN): 31.6 L = 8.35 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 28.88 L = 7.63 G @ 1.059
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 22 L = 5.81 G @ 1.074
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 20 L = 5.28 G @ 1.074
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 19 L = 5.02 G @ 1.022 assuming apparent attenuation of 70 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

72% Maris Otter 4397 grams = 9.69 pounds
10% Cara Blond 611 grams = 1.35 pounds
10% Munich Light 611 grams = 1.35 pounds
8% Wheat Malt 489 grams = 1.08 pounds


The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

21.2 IBU Chinook Pellets (11.9%AA) 17.9 grams = 0.632 ounces at 90 mins
24.4 IBU Cascade Pellets (5.8%AA) 42.4 grams = 1.495 ounces at 90 mins
13.1 IBU Cascade Pellets (5.8%AA) 48.9 grams = 1.725 ounces at 15 mins
5.3 IBU Cascade Pellets (5.8%AA) 48.9 grams = 1.725 ounces at 5 mins
0 IBU Cascade Pellets (5.8%AA) 40.7 grams = 1.437 ounces at 0 mins (First Wort Hopped)
0 IBU Simcoe Pellets (14.9%AA) 40.7 grams = 1.437 ounces at 0 mins (First Wort Hopped)
0 IBU Cascade Pellets (5.8%AA) 40.7 grams = 1.437 ounces at 0 mins (Dry Hopped)
0 IBU Simcoe Pellets (14.9%AA) 40.7 grams = 1.437 ounces at 0 mins (Dry Hopped)

Mash Steps

Mash Type: Multi-Step Mash - First Step for 60 mins at 64 C = 147.2 F

for 15 mins at 72 C = 161.6

Mashout for for 1 mins at 78 C = 172.4 F

Miscellaneous Ingredients

Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Fermentation& Conditioning
Serving Temp: 6 C = 42.8 F
Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer
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Last edited by ASCbrewery0913 on 20 Feb 2014, 03:29, edited 1 time in total.

Post #4 made 12 years ago
by Yeasty
Just had a quick glance at your recipe PDF and its very basic to say the least. Is this the original recipe or is it your brew sheet ? The information it provides minimal and you will be taking a stab in the dark with this brew. The title says it all "Indian Pale Ale 25L" 25L of what ? is this into fermenter, into kettle or into packaging ? No doubt it can be brewed but you will be second guessing a lot of details. A long time brewer might be able to spend a lot of time working on this and probably knock it into shape as they will have the confidence that comes with experience. Someone new to brewing won't have that luxury and there doubts will be a distraction.

If you have a link to the original recipe post it up and we will have a look. But to be honest you might be better off finding a solid detailed recipe of the same style or ask on the forum for a tried and tested recipe and scale that.

I don't want to put a downer on your choice of recipe but this is classic "low integrity" stuff. Don't be put off either as we are here to help you make great beer, I'd hate you to try Biab and fail at the first brew then move on to 3V. THAT would be a crime.

Just seen you have posted a Biabacus file, its late here now so I will have to leave it till later, someone else might chip in and comment. In the mean time try to provide some more info.

:salute:

Yeasty
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
by ASCbrewery0913
Yeasty,

Thanks for your comments and they are all well taken. I do want to clear a couple things up.

The Brew Sheet that I posted was from the actual brew house in Norway. I emailed them to see if they would help. you cant get this beer in the US from what I can tell which is why I would like to try and make it. I can email them back and ask for some additional information

my assumption right now is the 25 l or 6.6 gal is product or into the bottles.

My goal here is to try and make this beer. If it turns out that it isnt EXACTLY like it but drinkable? WOOHOO! Im happy. I recently got into brewing and have read many forums and info on line so I dont see myself quitting at all after a not so good brew. I think I will have to "create" most of the details which seems fun to be.

I hope I can provide more info and gain some good insight on this brew mainly with the Biabacus cause im not sure if I did that correctly.

anyways thanks for your comments and if you would take a look at what i have so far on the Biabacus it would be appreciated

Post #6 made 12 years ago
by balli1990
Looking at you BIABacus.

In section C you haven't entered anything in the EBC fields - this will give you an estimated colour of the final brew.

In section D you entered the original recipes VAW as 27L but I cant seem to find this figure on your brew sheet, assuming you guessed this figure I think it would be better to enter the desired IBU (60) and remove the VAW figure you entered.

When entering the hop bill -

Leave the 'form' field blank if your using pellets.
you entered FW for the method of the 0 min hop addition. 0 min additions are added at the end of the boil (flame out) and usually left to steep for 10 mins or so. FW refers to first wort hopping which is when the hops are added after the mash/before the boil and then left in throughout the boil. Unless you intend on first wort hopping these additions the method field should be left blank.

Also a 90 min mash is advised for BIAB.

as yeasty mentioned above this is a low integrity recipe. Im not sure what else I can add maybe a more experienced member can give some more insight?

maybe you should look for a similar recipe with a higher integrity?

Post #7 made 12 years ago
by ASCbrewery0913
Thanks for your comments and I have attached an edited BIABacus

I really want to try and make this beer. I hear what you guys are saying but could you explain why you think this wouldnt work or be drinkable?

Why is it low integrity ? Im not questioning your comment just trying to learn
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Post #8 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Hello Andrew and welcome to the forum.

I will touch on a few things too. I am a keggle user too. I carefully measured my keg and came up with a kettle diameter of 39.2 and kettle height of 42.4 and in section x, a kettle shape volume adjustment of 4.3 litres. You have caused me to re-think about putting a value in the kettle shape height adjustment field, which currently, have nothing entered there. :argh: This gives me a kettle capacity of 55.5 litres (14.65 gallons) up to the welded seam (with the understanding that I can mash up to that 'Mash Volume' in section k and a zero inch headspace per section t). For calculation purposes, this is what I have done.

Your kettle shape adjustments in section x are wrong. Please review this link; http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... 914#p25939

I recommend you setting the remaining values in section x to a blank (null) setting, so you can use the defaults for now.

I question section e. What is that advanced mashing step of 15 mins. at 161.6 F? A total of 75 mins. mashing is okay. More common is a 90 mins. mash.

Lastly, because of the low integrity recipe, I would change in section d, the top portion. Remove the value for VAW and pick an IBU Tinseth within the style guidelines. I would go with 70 IBU.

:peace:
MS
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Post #9 made 12 years ago
by majorphill
Andrew

One of the problems with scaling this recipe is that you don't know what the 25L means. It might be the volume of wort (VAW). It might be the volume into the fermenter (VIF). It could be the volume into the packaging (VIP). That's the main low integrity bit that I can see.

In this case they give a vague hint when in the last line of the instructions they say "Use the totalt amount of finished beer as a rule of thumb" which I take to say the only volume they quote is the amount of finished beer i.e. (VIP).

On that assumption adjust your VIF until you get the right VIP. That is dependant on the value for you have entered into the FPL cell in section X. I would do as Mad_Scientist recommends and leave all the fields in Section X blank and use the Biabacus defaults until you know your equipment a lot better. The defaults work for me.

At this point your volumes appear to be right but your grain bill is off because you don't know the "efficiency" that they are working at. If you add 78.7 to the Auto Kettle Efficiency field in Section X the grain bill matches theirs. That would suggest that 78.7% is their efficiency, which is unlikely to be yours.

You now have a recipe that matches theirs (but only if my volume assumtion is right).

To scale it set the Auto Kettle Efficiency back to null and adjust the VIF field to whatever you want.

You might note that your ABV is too low but that can be mathematically corrected by altering the attenuation figure in section H to 78%. That is just fiddling numbers. Your end result will likely differ depending on how your yeast behave.

I say again it all depends on the 25L being VIP.

Finally your original attempt would work and be drinkable. It might not be what you expected, that's all. Fairly hard to make an undrinkable all grain beer.

There maybe other ways to scale the recipe but it works for me :drink:

Majorphill

Post #10 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there ACS and welcome to the forum :peace:,

I'm really pleased with the answers above but you probably aren't :)... :dunno:. Because of all the work you and the others put in here, I just spent a fair bit of time trying to see if I could 'crack' this recipe and I can't. I've run it through several programs and several IBU estimate formulas and I can't get any sense out of this recipe sorry.

This thread reminds me of one last week and I'll link a post from that in a minute which I think will help you.
I am new to this and I need someone to review my BIABacus calcs. This is the first time i have tried using this thing. I like it but I'm having trouble
You have done really well on the BIABacus ASC, and the only reason why you have had trouble is that your original recipe does not make sense in many areas. This is not your fault and it is not the BIABacus's fault. In fact, the BIABacus is designed to hopefully force you into having problems if you are given a low integrity recipe. In other programs, if you are given a low integrity recipe, you'll find it very hard to spot them unless you are a very experienced user or have been hanging around here for a while. Most recipes brewers think they are copying well, they are not. And that is the good news! I'll often see someone posting, just brewed so and so's recipe and it was great. I look at their numbers though and see that what they brewed was 20% + or - different from the original brew :).

...

I think the next thing we need to get around in this thread is this psychological bewilderment that you must be experiencing right now. In other words, I think you must be saying to yourself, "Look, this recipe comes from guys that actually run a brewhouse. Why wouldn't they give me a 'high integrity' recipe? Surely, they know more than a few home brewers?"

Have a read of this post first.

After that come back here and we can give you a list of questions that the original brewers need to be asked. Okay?

....

Don't feel bad about this at all. For the reasons explained in the link above, even a lot of micro-brewers have no idea on numbers. We are fighting a war on three fronts here atm. Low integrity recipes from other sites, low integrity software from other sites and a lack of time to put out high integrity recipes on high integrity software on this site.

C'est la vie :smoke:,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 20 Feb 2014, 16:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #11 made 12 years ago
by ASCbrewery0913
PP,

I first want to say thank you for your write up and I understand what you are saying. The reason there are questions is due to the lack of detailed and useful information in the recipe I was given. You all are helping me learn and its been a lot of fun doing it.

I think I have given off the wrong impression about the final goal for this brew. I see all of you looking at this as a mission to re create this beer exactly and to the book. While that would be awesome to be able to do, when I received the recipe in the first place I knew that was going to be a shot in the dark and we can see that now. I want to make a beer as best I can and as close I can with the information I have... Thats really all I can do and you all have helped me alot in getting closer i think

I also agree with the assumption of what is stated as 25L in the recipe is final product or what the Biabacus calls VIP. So with that as an assumption I have adjusted the Biabacus.

I want to address one thing on this which could change the out come of this beer and I would like an opinion on it.

The figures I am concerned about are as follows:

TWN vs. SWN - It is my understanding (which could be way off) that the SWN figure is what you physically put in the pot and the TWN is lower due to evaporation during heating to strike temp. If that is correct my figures are SWN: 35.13 and TWN: 34.45. I honestly dont think I will loose this .70L during initial heating to 68 C Thoughts?

Evaporation - I think this figure is high for my setup and my equipment. I roll a strong hard boil but I havent lost that much water in any of the 4 brews I have done. I am estimating around .75 gal / 60 min. I am on the fence on if I want to adjust this to more of what I think or just leave it and see how it goes.

KFL - Currently my calcs show a KFL figure of 3.42 L which with my equipment I dont see happening. I have a stainless steel ball valve at the bottom / side of my Keggle. My process in the past has been to drain all the wort I can leaving the "junk" or turb behind which hasnt been much in the past. maybe 1.5L I feel I should adjust this figure as I can assume that I can extract 95% - 99% of the liquid into the Fermentor. yes this will give me more FPL loss but I think that would be easier to measure. on the flip side - I could just plan on leaving 3.42 L in my Keggle but wouldnt that just lower efficiency?


I hope what I have written here makes sense. Also I think what I have as far as the grain bill and hop bill is good and thats what I will use. Just need to finalize some of the numbers and Brew. I am looking forward to having this tool during the brew process. In the past I havent taken the time to measure all the volumes at different steps and I am looking forward to tracking some actual data.

Post #12 made 12 years ago
by Rick
TWN is lower, because heated strike water actually expands to a greater volume. Same difference with VFO and VAW, they are hot and cool .. respectively.

As for the rest, if a trivial reduction in efficiency makes your brew day more enjoyable .. I think you shouldn't worry about it. If you look back and regret it, you can always change on the next brew.
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Post #13 made 12 years ago
by mally
This post I did here #25 onwards explains a lot of the terminology (just in case you had any more questions). The TWN/SWN bit is shown on pic3

I do similar with zero KFL, but an increased FPL.
I would normally recommend you stick to the BIABacus defaults until you know exactly what your setup works to (normally 5+ brews), but if you feel the need to make changes to it nobody can stop you. :luck:
Last edited by mally on 20 Feb 2014, 23:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #14 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
ASCbrewery0913 wrote: Evaporation - I think this figure is high for my setup and my equipment. I roll a strong hard boil but I havent lost that much water in any of the 4 brews I have done. I am estimating around .75 gal / 60 min. I am on the fence on if I want to adjust this to more of what I think or just leave it and see how it goes.
My average evaporation rate over six to eight brews is 3.48 l/hr or 0.92 gal/hr at my location. :)
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 21 Feb 2014, 07:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #15 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
I think Rick, mally and Richard (MS) have got you sorted on most questions but make sure you ask them for more detail if you need it. The BIABacus defaults are set up to favour most brewers getting a little more beer than expected as this is the safest path so, as long a s you have good reason to change the defaults yo mentioned, there is no reason why you shouldn't do so.

I also really like your sentences...
You all are helping me learn and its been a lot of fun doing it. I think I have given off the wrong impression about the final goal for this brew. I see all of you looking at this as a mission to re create this beer exactly and to the book.
Lovely! But don't you worry ASC, I don't think anyone here thinks you have been too expectant. I think your attitude to the recipe is great :clap:. What myself and the other guys above do realise is that there is always this massive Catch 22 between respecting numbers and disrespecting numbers.
Here, we sort of want people to understand numbers well enough so as they can get to the stage where they know which ones (or recipes) to disrespect :interesting:. But we also want people to know that you can brew pretty much any sort of recipe and still get a great beer.
So, I'm in two minds as to whether to wrote any more. You are feeling confident that you have the grain and hop bill right but myself and the other guys are thinking, "These are the exact numbers we are worried about."

Remember above, I said, "...After that come back here and we can give you a list of questions that the original brewers need to be asked." After reading your post above, at this stage of your brewing career and with your excellent attitude, I think we can avoid that for now as long a s you understand two things....

1. That is a nice looking recipe. You will get a lovely beer form it.
2. Will it be like the original recipe? Until you brew it or ask the original brewers more questions, none of us can possibly know.

Brew it as is :peace:,
But, make sure you report back here as you and a few of the above have all put time in here ;).

Can't wait to hear how this goes :luck:,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 21 Feb 2014, 17:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #16 made 12 years ago
by ASCbrewery0913
All,

So I brewed to recipe and I have input my numbers as best I could. I want some thoughts on the out come.

Issues:

1. My mash temp I was shooting for was 154 F. but I didnt hit it spot on. i doughed in at 162 F and it stayed at about 157 F for close to 40 mins. finished at about 152 F. Mistake one. but did show me a good lesson

first thing is I was wrong about the evaporation number and should have left it alone because I did end up evaping 2 galoons. Other than that I thought I did a good job. The Gravity reading of the wort was a little low but the final came out really close to what I was shooting for.

Not sure how to read or take the efficiency figures and I am looking for some honesty.

Look forward to your thoughts!
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Post #17 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Congrats ASC

Mash temp... Okay, I think I might reduce the default figure in the BIABacus. One principle of the BIABacus is that the defaults should lead to an outcome that is easily corrected. Having a mash too high is not easily corrected, so our bad I reckon. Anyway, this is not a biggie on your brew ;).

Lol on the evaporation number. Remember though that these vary wildly from day to day just from atmospheric conditions. So, treat evaporation estimates with a great deal of disrespect. Doing that will get you to be more aware of them.

As for your efficiency figures...

You may have read here about, "Never trust a single reading on a single brew." So let's not forget that.

I like your numbers though. They look very honest and the three volume and gravity sets of measurements seem to confirm each other. So, if we wanted to get stuck into analysing this one batch, we would see that your kettle efficiency is under-estimated and your KFL is over-estimated.

Kettle efficiency is always the primary thing to focus on. All you can do at this stage until you brew again and can get figures that further confirm/refute a kettle efficiency problem is examine Some Common Reasons for a Low Efficiency Reading.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 05 Mar 2014, 21:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #19 made 12 years ago
by ASCbrewery0913
Took a reading on the IPA today and wasnt happy. Looking for some help.

im getting 1.020 fg
the calc says it should be about 1.016.

is there anything to be worried about here?

Post #20 made 12 years ago
by BobBrews
ASCbrewery0913,

No need to worry. :salute: There are so many variables involved that you will always have some variation. How old was the grain you bought? How do you know the quality of the grain? Nothing to measure there but it may effect your final gravity. The pH of your brewing water (even if you have a valid print out) will vary with the season. (spring floods effect pH and so does water treatment plant cleaning) Viability of your yeast, the oxygenation of your wort and nutrients all have a hand in it. Even a experienced hand at BIAB will vary some.

Have a beer and relax your beer will be fine. Cheers :drink:
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

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Post #21 made 12 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
I looked at your #16 post and your file with your actuals. If you like this brew and repeat it again, I would shoot for a lower mash temp., maybe around 148-150 F if you want it drier. That is one of the variables I would do next time. You got a 73% attenuation instead of 78%, it's on the maltly side.

Let us know how it tastes. You did great! That's a 6.9% ABV. :smoke:

:peace:
MS
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