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Converting a Traditional Recipe to BIAB

Post #1 made 14 years ago
by smyrnaquince
Is it possible to convert a traditional brew recipe into a BIAB recipe in a straightfoward manner?

For specifics, consider this original recipe: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/smooth- ... out-50756/

Smooth Oatmeal Stout
Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: S-04
Yeast Starter: no
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.25
Original Gravity: 1.055
Final Gravity: 1.018
IBU: 36
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 35
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 14days @ 65F
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): no

OG 1.055 (80% efficiency, adjust base malt for your system)
IBUs 36
6.75# Pale malt
0.5# roasted Barley (350l)
0.75# chocolate (330l)
0.5# crystal 40
0.5# crsytal 120
0.75# victory
1# flaked oats
2oz Willamette hops at 60
S-04 yeast

Single infusion mash at 156F for 60 min.


I would like to convert this recipe to BIAB and run it through The Calculator to make a mini-BIAB of 2.5 US gallons. I can do the metric/English conversions needed to use The Calculator, but I have questions:
  • The original boil time is 60 minutes. Do I extend this to 90 minutes for BIAB?
  • What do I adjust in the recipe to allow for the 90-minute BIAB boil?
  • Only one volume value is given, which is the "Batch Size." Would this be equivalent to the "End of Boil Volume" or to the "Brew Length" of the original recipe? I need "End of Boil Volume" for The Calculator.
  • Does End of Boil Gravity (BIAB) = Original Gravity (above) = 1.055 ?
  • Original recipe mash is 60 minutes at 156 F (69 C). Because BIAB has no separate sparge step, do I keep the temperature the same as called for, but extend the mash time to 90 minutes?
I assume I would use:
  • Grain Bill exactly as above
  • Hop bill exactly as above, adding the hops at 60 (not 90)
Are there other adjustments I need to make?

P.S. I have modified The Calculator to also show/use English measurements. I can post it if anyone is interested.
Last edited by smyrnaquince on 26 Jun 2011, 02:29, edited 5 times in total.

Post #2 made 14 years ago
by stux
In many way the batch size doesn't matter

The OG is used to work out how much grain you need, thus the original recipe tells you the ratios of the grain bill

Then just use the hop bill page to work out your hop addition by matching IBUs

Yes 60 minute addition even with a 90 min boil. If you want you can do a 60 min boil too
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #3 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Welcome to the forum smyrna :peace:

I can have a look at your recipe later today but if you'd like to explore this on your own before then, have a read of the start of this thread. If you get confident, have a go at doing the conversion yourself and post it up here for us to check. If not, I'll have a crack for you later.

stux above has been improving The Calculator behind the scenes so we'll have one that is a bit easier to use and with much better formulas available soon I believe.

Until later,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 26 Jun 2011, 08:35, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #4 made 14 years ago
by smyrnaquince
I read the suggested thread (at least the first few pages) and I think I am doing the right thing. Although I'd like to have this recipe converted, the bigger thing is that I want to learn to do it the right way so I can do the conversions on my own.

I thought that the Original Recipe End of Boil Volume from the Hop Bill spreadsheet would affect some of the calculations. I searched the workbook, though, and stux is right, that value does not seem to be used in any calculation.

I should have included my calculations with my first post. Sorry. But now, I have re-calculated with a 60-minute boil in addition to a 90-minute boil.

So at this point, my questions are:
  • Is there any reason to go with a 90-minute boil over the 60-minute boil that the original recipe called for? With 90 minutes, the mash volume is 5.21, which will not fit in my pot. With a 60-minute boil, the mash volume is 4.83 gal, which *will* fit in my pot.
  • Original recipe mash is 60 minutes at 156 F (69 C). Because BIAB has no separate sparge step, do I keep the temperature the same as called for, but extend the mash time to 90 minutes? What changes should I make to the mash?
  • Should I make any adjustments to the calculations below? (And if so, I'd like to understand *why*)
I'm sorry about the formatting below, but HTML makes it hard to get nicely lined-up columns.

Here are my results from The Calculator (using a 90-minute boil):

Brew Length_____________________2.50____gal_____9.46____lts
Fermenter Trub*_________________0.20____gal_____0.76____lts
Volume into Fermenter___________2.70____gal_____10.22___lts
Kettle Trub & Buffer*___________0.45____gal_____1.70____lts
End of Boil Efficiency* ________________________79.00___%
End of Boil Gravity (OG)________________________1.055___Deg.
End of Boil Volume______________3.15____gal_____11.92___lts
Boil_Length_____________________________________90______min
Diameter_of_Kettle______________11.50___in______29.21___cms
Evaporation_Per_Hour*___________0.76____gal/hr__2.87____lts/hr
Evaporation_for_this_Brew_______1.14____gal_____4.30____lts
Expected_Start_of_Boil_Gravity__________________1.040___Deg.
Start_of_Boil_Volume____________4.29____gal_____16.23___lts
Grain_Bill_Required_____________5.96____lb______2704____grams
Grain_Absorption*_______________0.45____gal_____1.70____lts
Water_Required_is...____________4.74____gal_____17.92___lts
Approximate_Mash_Volume_________5.21____gal_____19.71___lts

Here are the results with a 60-minute boil:

Brew_Length_____________________2.50____gal_____9.46____lts
Fermenter_Trub*_________________0.20____gal_____0.76____lts
Volume_into_Fermenter___________2.70____gal_____10.22___lts
Kettle_Trub_&_Buffer*___________0.45____gal_____1.70____lts
End_of_Boil_Efficiency*_________________________79.00___%
End_of_Boil_Gravity_(OG)________________________1.055___Deg.
End_of_Boil_Volume______________3.15____gal_____11.92___lts
Boil_Length_____________________________________60______min
Diameter_of_Kettle______________11.50___in______29.21___cms
Evaporation_Per_Hour*___________0.76____gal/hr__2.87____lts/hr
Evaporation_for_this_Brew_______0.76____gal_____2.87____lts
Expected_Start_of_Boil_Gravity__________________1.044___Deg.
Start_of_Boil_Volume____________3.91____gal_____14.79___lts
Grain_Bill_Required_____________5.96____lb______2704____grams
Grain_Absorption*_______________0.45____gal_____1.70____lts
Water_Required_is...____________4.36____gal_____16.49___lts
Approximate_Mash_Volume_________4.83____gal_____18.28___lts


The grain bill and hop bill come out the same with either boil time:

Original_Recipe_________________________________________________Scaled_Recipe
Grain_Name______________(g)_____________(lb)____(oz)__________Percent___(g)_____(lb)____(oz)
Grain_Bill_Required_____4876.117978_____10.75___172_____________100_____2704____5.96____95.38
Pale_Malt_______________3061.748498_____6.75____108_____________62.8____1698____3.74____59.89
Roasted_Barley__________226.796185______0.5_____8_______________4.7_____126_____0.28____4.44
Chocolate_Malt__________340.1942775_____0.75____12______________7.0_____189_____0.42____6.65
Crystal_40_Malt_________226.796185______0.5_____8_______________4.7_____126_____0.28____4.44
Crystal_120_Malt________226.796185______0.5_____8_______________4.7_____126_____0.28____4.44
Victory_________________340.1942775_____0.75____12______________7.0_____189_____0.42____6.65
Flaked_Oats_____________453.59237_______1_______16______________9.3_____252_____0.55____8.87


Original_Recipe_________________________________________________Scaled_Recipe

End_of_Boil_Volume_(lts):_19.87__5.25_gal_______________________End_of_Boil_Volume*_(lts):_11.92__3.15_gal
Hop_Name______Ounces__Grams_________AA%_____Time____________Ounces__Grams___AA%____IBU
Willamette______2_______56.69904625_____5.3_____60______________1.20____34.0____5.3_____35.6
Last edited by smyrnaquince on 27 Jun 2011, 01:14, edited 5 times in total.

Post #5 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi again sq,

Sorry I didn't get to this earlier but I got caught out on another conversion. It's pretty late here now so I'll take a proper look at what you have done tomorrow.

A few quick things though...

The original recipe 'end of boil volume' is important for the hop scaling and is used on the hop bill page. The Calculator is a bit worn out so I'll cut down stux's latest maxi one tomorrow for you and use that.

A 60 minute boil is fine. A 90 minute boil has a few advantages though. Because your boil-off is increased, you are mashing with more initial water which means you are also 'rinsing' the grain with more water which should lead to a tad higher efficiency but nothing to worry about - probably negligible. A 60 minute boil with some water and recipes/grains can produce a hazy beer that a 90 minute boil would fix. This is rare so once again be confident in a 60 minute boil.

I recommend any traditional brewer, BIAB or not, do a 90 minute mash. This is based on my experience that as you take gravity readings during the mash, they still continue to rise after 60 minutes. The limit of attenuation also increases with time. See here for confirmation of this.

And yep, in BIAB, you just mash at the temperature the recipe requires.

Until tomorrow :peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 27 Jun 2011, 01:47, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #6 made 14 years ago
by smyrnaquince
PistolPatch,

I actually like the time zone difference because I don't have to stay right on top of the thread.

I should have searched on $E$8 on the hop bill sheet of the Excel workbook, I had used E8. Now I see the formulas that use it.

The longer mash makes sense for better extraction.

It sounds like I am doing the right things to convert the recipe.

I like the thought of the mini-BIAB for two reasons. It will let me do smaller batches, so I can make a larger variety of beer. (My wife and I don't drink it quickly enough to have multiple full batches on hand.) I will be able to make an all-grain brew on my stovetop with my existing equipment.

Thanks!

P.S. By the way, it is so cool to be part of a group and getting advice from people a half a world away. My use of the word "cool" probably shows my age, but what the heck.

P.P.S. I am sitting on my back porch, enjoying my first bottle (actually, second at this point) of my own homebrew, a hefeweizen from extract and specialty grains. This is actually the second batch I made--the first batch is a stout that I am letting age until the cool fall weather (~October here).

Post #7 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi again sq,

Yes, the international side to this forum is very interesting. Check out the video on BobBrew's website that has a bunch of mad men and women brewing on an ice lake :shock:.

Congrats on the consummation of your first (second) home brew :clap: and...

Even more congratulations on the excellent job you did with The Calculator - impressive :champ:.

There original recipe isn't particularly well-defined but somehow you got around it. For example, the term batch size isn't defined - this term can mean anything. The guy also hasn't told us the AA% of his hops. Giving total IBUs is pretty useless to another brewer as this is not only affected by his starting boil volume and ending boil volume (impossible to work out from that recipe) but also the bitterness equation used. For example, Tinseth (that we use here) will give a totally different result from Rager. Anyway, I have assumed an AA of 5% as this works out about right though it is on the high end of IBU's for that style.

Here is the recipe using stux's massively improved layout and formulas which I am calling The Calculator 2.0 for now.

Let me know if anything doesn't make sense.

Cheers,
PP
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Post #8 made 14 years ago
by smyrnaquince
Thanks and yes, it makes sense. I don't have the time to compare the recipes in detail tonight, though.

I modified the previous Calculator to do conversions to English from metric. If The Calculator 2.0 that you used is stable, I can do that again. Let me know.

Post #9 made 14 years ago
by Pat
Hold off on modifying The Calculator 2.0. stux has just posted another update here which I am going to explore now. Bear in mind, his update will include a lot of tabs that won't be included in The Calculator 2.?

...

Just had a quick read of his post as I went to link it here and it looks as though he has somehow managed to make The Calculator both metric and US imperial :o. Can't wait to see what it looks like now!

It is excellent that you, smyrna, have already taken the time and trouble to start exploring this side of things. You'll find this becomes a great assett to you. Let's go and see what stux has come up with ;)

Pat
Last edited by Pat on 29 Jun 2011, 01:11, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #10 made 14 years ago
by smyrnaquince
Pat wrote:Hold off on modifying The Calculator 2.0. stux has just posted another update here which I am going to explore now. Bear in mind, his update will include a lot of tabs that won't be included in The Calculator 2.?

Thanks for the heads-up. I looked at stux's latest and it is much better than what I did on the conversions. Very impressive! I was playing around with hte grain bill a bit and it looks like there is still a bit of work to do, but this is such a cool tool!

I think he should keep all the tabs.
Last edited by smyrnaquince on 29 Jun 2011, 08:29, edited 5 times in total.
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