Is there any point in mashing out if I'm doing an overnight mash?
Thx
L
Overnight mash and mashout
Post #3 made 14 years ago
Thanx, so according to palmer biabers don't benefit from mashout at all but I think the guys on this site wouldn't agree with that ?
Post #4 made 14 years ago
Goog Gay, To me, the Mashout lowers the viscosity and helps me drain the bag.
But, Maybe it's just me.
But, Maybe it's just me.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #5 made 14 years ago
There are many reasons for a BIABer to do a mashout. As Joshua said above it lowers viscosity of the liquor making bag draining easier. It also helps to improve mash efficiency.
I do it because IMHO improves my beer. Have a read of this thread to see what I do with the mashout.
I do it because IMHO improves my beer. Have a read of this thread to see what I do with the mashout.
Last edited by hashie on 15 Aug 2012, 05:31, edited 3 times in total.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #7 made 14 years ago
I think another problem with the overnight mashing Lars is a time one. Overnight the mash is going to lose a lot of heat and so it is going to take time to heat it back up to mash temps meaning the time saving is not going to be as real as it appears.
Mashout never hurts. Gives the grain a bit more contact time with the water plus the other things above. If you have a poully system, there is no need to continually stir while ramping up to the mashout so why not
?
Mashout never hurts. Gives the grain a bit more contact time with the water plus the other things above. If you have a poully system, there is no need to continually stir while ramping up to the mashout so why not
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Post #8 made 14 years ago
PistolPatch wrote:I think another problem with the overnight mashing Lars is a time one. Overnight the mash is going to lose a lot of heat and so it is going to take time to heat it back up to mash temps meaning the time saving is not going to be as real as it appears.
My overnight mashing experiences (usually 10-12hrs) result in a 5-8 c temperature drop more than my 90 minute mashes. ie. generally 53-56c when uncovered. Then straight on to my gas stovetop to a 78c mashout. 15 minutes. I like Hashie's option of adding spec grains while heating to mashout.
My Big W pot has 14L strike water, 3500-4000 grain bill and is pretty full.(not a lot of dead space) I insulate the pot with two unzipped sleeping bags,a wool blanket and a baby quilt. All strapped tightly around the pot. My first couple O/N mashing attempts, I lost 10-13c. I had instant improvement through warming (above ambient) the insulation articles. ie. while heating my strike water I also bring a four litre stovetop aluminium hot water kettle to the boil. This kettle 'plays mash tun' as it gets wrapped up until my mash-in is finished.
Cheers
Mashout never hurts. Gives the grain a bit more contact time with the water plus the other things above. If you have a poully system, there is no need to continually stir while ramping up to the mashout so why not
Last edited by thylacine on 16 Aug 2012, 12:29, edited 3 times in total.
Overnight mash and mashout
Post #9 made 14 years ago
Why don't u need to stir with a pulley, do you not leave the grain immersed durin the ramp?
Post #10 made 14 years ago
First thylacine then Lars...
thylacine: Those temp drops are bugger all
. I'm still pondering though what the advantages are. I sort of see it and sort of don't see it 
. On one hand, it breaks the brew day up. On the other hand, it creates a big unknown. I'm only saying this because in the back of my mind, I can remember someone saying something valid against overnight mashing. I know that the post was made on a forum and was probably based on theory rather than actual experiment and so should be ignored.
Something else is bugging me though
...
Think I have it now...
If you have an electric kettle or a small pot that you can remove from the stove then you have a lot more opportunity to insulate. In a system like mine, your insulation opportunities diminish - you'll just create a fire hazard. Putting sleeping bags or insulation over a gas-fired system is not great advice!!!!
So, this insulation thing maybe should be confined to stove-top or electric BIAB's???
Lars: You do need to stir with a pulley but not so often
.
When you don't have a pulley, your bag is sitting on the base of the pot and the base can reach temps that will bun the bag. So, any time you apply heat, you need to keep things moving. Your main aim in stirring is to protect your bag.
When you have a pulley though and are doing a mashout, you only need to give the grist an occasional stir. You aren't trying to protect the bag, you are just trying to get an even temperature through the grain from time to time. Does that make sense?
PP
thylacine: Those temp drops are bugger all
. I'm still pondering though what the advantages are. I sort of see it and sort of don't see it . On one hand, it breaks the brew day up. On the other hand, it creates a big unknown. I'm only saying this because in the back of my mind, I can remember someone saying something valid against overnight mashing. I know that the post was made on a forum and was probably based on theory rather than actual experiment and so should be ignored.Something else is bugging me though
...Think I have it now...
If you have an electric kettle or a small pot that you can remove from the stove then you have a lot more opportunity to insulate. In a system like mine, your insulation opportunities diminish - you'll just create a fire hazard. Putting sleeping bags or insulation over a gas-fired system is not great advice!!!!
So, this insulation thing maybe should be confined to stove-top or electric BIAB's???
Lars: You do need to stir with a pulley but not so often
.When you don't have a pulley, your bag is sitting on the base of the pot and the base can reach temps that will bun the bag. So, any time you apply heat, you need to keep things moving. Your main aim in stirring is to protect your bag.
When you have a pulley though and are doing a mashout, you only need to give the grist an occasional stir. You aren't trying to protect the bag, you are just trying to get an even temperature through the grain from time to time. Does that make sense?
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 19 Aug 2012, 22:42, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #11 made 14 years ago
Good Day, I do not want to start a war.....The enzymes are all killed off at mashout, they are gone!!!
But, If you don't hit that temerature, enzymes are still in the wort over a range of temperatures.
See..http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-1.html.
An Overnight Mash can go on until all the starch is converted or the enzymes are used up.
Just my experience, I had very high effiency and a very dry beer, No body, all alcohol!
But, If you don't hit that temerature, enzymes are still in the wort over a range of temperatures.
See..http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-1.html.
An Overnight Mash can go on until all the starch is converted or the enzymes are used up.
Just my experience, I had very high effiency and a very dry beer, No body, all alcohol!
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
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Post #12 made 14 years ago
PP,
I save at least 75min per O/N mash. Uncovering at 53-56c rather than at 59-61c (90min mash) doesn't take me much longer to reach mashout temp. As soon as I empty the bag I mash in the second batch. Two pots...
"...ie. generally 53-56c when uncovered. Then straight on to my gas stovetop to a 78c mashout..."
No, I don't advocate insulating kettles sitting on open flame. Gave me a good laugh though, and reminds me when venues had to start displaying caution/warning notices due to increasingly litigious societies. eg. notice placed next to wall mounted hot water dispenser in staff tearoom: "Warning, Hot Water Can Burn"
Joshua,
My O/N mashing results do not differ from my 90min batches. eg. at least for my taste buds.
I started O/N mashing to save brewing time as I brew four different recipes over two days. ie. so that all go in to my fermentation chamber, which is controlled by a single temperature controller, in a close timeframe to each other. Of the four batches, two are O/N mashes. I have used the same recipe, once using a 90min mash and then on another brew day an O/N mash. Again, my buds (I hope they are still working!) do not reveal obvious differences. I acknowledge my taste buds are not BCTP trained. ;-)
Another brewer has these thoughts re O/N mashing: http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=30815
Q: Won't my wort be super-attenuable and make a dry beer every time with this method?
A: No. This is the question I hear most often, so I spent some time talking to professional brewers, reading textbooks, and studying the matter. Just as with a normal mash, the final fermentability of the wort is more a function of the temperature the mash starts out at, and not the temperature the mash finishes up at (as long as the temperature remains fairly steady over time.) It is possible to mash at a low temperature, say 140F, for a very long period of time to come up with highly fermentable wort, and thus a very dry beer. Many of the "low-carb" or "ultra-light" beers available commercially are made with a similar method.
However, an overnight mash at a higher mash temperature (150F and above) will act pretty much the same as a standard 90-minute mash that starts out at the same temperature, even if the overnight mash ends up at a lower temperature at the end of the mash.
As we know, alpha-amylase and beta-amylase are responsible for starch conversion. At a temperature of 150F, beta-amylase will only operate for about 40-60 minutes before it becomes denatured; this happens quicker at higher temperatures, and a little more slowly at lower temperatures. Alpha-amylase lasts a little longer, but it is not as crucial in determining the final fermentability of the wort; its job is mainly to "de-branch" the larger starches into large sugars, so that beta-amylase can finish the job by breaking them up into even smaller sugars. So, even if alpha-amylase is breaking up the starches for a long time, they're still going to remain "large sugars" (less fermentable) because there's no more beta-amylase to break them down even further. Alpha-amylase itself will be denatured after about 2 hours at normal mash temperatures.
In other words, after anywhere from 60-120 minutes, your mash is finished doing all it's going to do as far as conversion is concerned, and the rest of the time, it's just waiting patiently for you to come back and finish up.
I save at least 75min per O/N mash. Uncovering at 53-56c rather than at 59-61c (90min mash) doesn't take me much longer to reach mashout temp. As soon as I empty the bag I mash in the second batch. Two pots...
"...ie. generally 53-56c when uncovered. Then straight on to my gas stovetop to a 78c mashout..."
No, I don't advocate insulating kettles sitting on open flame. Gave me a good laugh though, and reminds me when venues had to start displaying caution/warning notices due to increasingly litigious societies. eg. notice placed next to wall mounted hot water dispenser in staff tearoom: "Warning, Hot Water Can Burn"
Joshua,
My O/N mashing results do not differ from my 90min batches. eg. at least for my taste buds.
I started O/N mashing to save brewing time as I brew four different recipes over two days. ie. so that all go in to my fermentation chamber, which is controlled by a single temperature controller, in a close timeframe to each other. Of the four batches, two are O/N mashes. I have used the same recipe, once using a 90min mash and then on another brew day an O/N mash. Again, my buds (I hope they are still working!) do not reveal obvious differences. I acknowledge my taste buds are not BCTP trained. ;-)
Another brewer has these thoughts re O/N mashing: http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=30815
Q: Won't my wort be super-attenuable and make a dry beer every time with this method?
A: No. This is the question I hear most often, so I spent some time talking to professional brewers, reading textbooks, and studying the matter. Just as with a normal mash, the final fermentability of the wort is more a function of the temperature the mash starts out at, and not the temperature the mash finishes up at (as long as the temperature remains fairly steady over time.) It is possible to mash at a low temperature, say 140F, for a very long period of time to come up with highly fermentable wort, and thus a very dry beer. Many of the "low-carb" or "ultra-light" beers available commercially are made with a similar method.
However, an overnight mash at a higher mash temperature (150F and above) will act pretty much the same as a standard 90-minute mash that starts out at the same temperature, even if the overnight mash ends up at a lower temperature at the end of the mash.
As we know, alpha-amylase and beta-amylase are responsible for starch conversion. At a temperature of 150F, beta-amylase will only operate for about 40-60 minutes before it becomes denatured; this happens quicker at higher temperatures, and a little more slowly at lower temperatures. Alpha-amylase lasts a little longer, but it is not as crucial in determining the final fermentability of the wort; its job is mainly to "de-branch" the larger starches into large sugars, so that beta-amylase can finish the job by breaking them up into even smaller sugars. So, even if alpha-amylase is breaking up the starches for a long time, they're still going to remain "large sugars" (less fermentable) because there's no more beta-amylase to break them down even further. Alpha-amylase itself will be denatured after about 2 hours at normal mash temperatures.
In other words, after anywhere from 60-120 minutes, your mash is finished doing all it's going to do as far as conversion is concerned, and the rest of the time, it's just waiting patiently for you to come back and finish up.
Post #13 made 14 years ago
Great post thylacine 
. Thanks for all that excellent info .
. Thanks for all that excellent info .If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
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