Scaling and late hop additions

During my evolution from a brewer to a thinking brewer I've been giving some thought to hop additions and the scaling function of the calculator, especially late additions at flame out or 0 minutes.

As I have mainly been working my way through British Ales it hasn't been often that hops have been added at 0 minutes and when they were I've just scaled according to my required volumes. Today I am brewing an APA and using hops in stock rather than buy those in the recipe.

Now the calculator scales the hops as per AA% boil time and average Gravity etc. However when its a 0 min addition the IBU is 0 as there is no boil and the weight is scaled as per the recipe according to the AA% of the scaled recipe hops. This is where I confused myself..Shouldn't we be scaling according to the weight to liquor volume ratio rather than AA% in these situations ? the reaason I ask is that one of my substituted hops had a higher AA% than the original and therefore when scaled the amount was nearly 5g less, as these are added for taste and aroma I am concerned that I am not adding enought. I suppose it depends upon the ratio of AA to Aromatic oils

Hope that makes sense, I'm gonna read up on it tonight (brewing now so no time) just thought I'd ask if anyone had any thoughts on it.



Yeasty

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Good question Yeasty .

The reality is that hops are a black art. We had the head brewer from Little Creatures talk to us once on hops and it was a fascinating talk. He basically said that a lot of the science of hops makes no sense and certainly doesn't match reality and he knows hops well.

For example, he has to produce the same beer over and over again but using different aged hops and different varieties of hops as one year he may not be able to get the hops he used the year or even a few weeks before. In fact, almost every batch of the same recipe he brews uses a different combination of hops. He told us that every variety behaves differently and once you get to know its 'personality' then you can do a lot of different things with even a single hop variety. So, with some batches he may throw hops in the whirlpool that in a previous batch, with a different hop, he may have added 15 minutes before the boil end.

Any software, in this area, can only stop the brewer from making major errors. It's all software really does. Gravity and volume estimates can be quite good but software bitterness and colour estimates will only get you in the ballpark of reality at best.

As to your question, with flavour and aroma hops, what you say is true. There are many different compounds in a hop that create flavour, aroma (and bitterness). The AA% is what we hope will reflect other aspects of the hop (which it won't always) and therefore software uses this number x the weight in scaling. Some brewers however prefer for flavour and aroma additions to work more on weight than AA%.

So, it's a tricky area with no right answer I have ever seen and maybe there isn't one? I suppose the best rule is to try and find flavour and aroma hops that are within the vicinity of the AA% of the hops used in the recipe you are copying.

Because I'm not much of an artist, I usually just do what the numbers tell me to do. If I do have a big discrepancy in AA% of the flavour/aroma hops I have on hand and those called for in the recipe, I might make a bit of a weight adjustment but this is rare. The beer always tastes great so we probably don't need to get too worried.

Other Hop Discrepancies

There are even more discrepancies from brewer to brewer on flavour and aroma hops. For example, some brewers will let their kettle settle for 20 to 30 minutes before they start chilling, other brewers will chill immediately and others will no-chill. Another brewer might even use a hop sock and pull it a little after the end of the boil. So, all these brewers following a recipe that called for a 15 min and 1 minute hop addition may get different beers.

I think the best answer to these questions is for all BIAB brewers to have two side by side rigs and always brew two batches of the same recipe but in two different ways . Of course, this is totally impractical but doing this is probably the only real way of getting anything more than anectdotal evidence. For now, I suppose we'll have to stick with the anectdotal .


PP

P.S. In other words, what Bob said .

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P.S. In other words, what Bob said .

PP got it right this time! Yeasty just remember that this is a "Black Art"! With lots of luck and with lots of pluck you can create wonders but repeatable wonders? For a guy with no tasting talent (maybe that's why I like my beer?) I can discern changes in my favorite craft beers. When I ask the owner or head brewer (yes, they are former brew club members) what changed? They always say it was the hops! Can't get them? Different weather conditions? They tested (AA%) higher - lower? Soil changed or different fertilizer used? A potful of reasons. I love hops and they love me! But they are not the same hops I started with.

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Boy you guys are sharp tonight

I'm not over worried It was just something that occured to me when I was scaling my hops. Thought I'd share it.

I suppose its these little things that make the winning beers different from all the others. Artistic talent or luck ? I guess we will never know..

Cheers

Yeasty

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thughes wrote:Agreed. While I am fascinated with the science and magic that actually takes place, I tend to "brew like Bob does" (I'm going to get that printed on a tee-shirt one of these days) and treat brew day as an adventure.....letting the beer gods take me where they will as I brew. I do take detailed notes so I can replicate any brew session but I learned long ago that the exact same recipe, brewed the exact same way, will turn out slightly different every time. To quote PP: "The beer always tastes great so we probably don't need to get too worried."

---Todd (a dumb-luck brewer)

Great idea Todd! My mantra when I am not sure which way to go with something in my brew (or even when contemplating whether or not to have a beer) is I ask myself"what would BB do".It hasn't failed me yet!

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Bob talking about Chaos Theory

So when I shook my FV about an hour ago with a knife in it which then came through the side therefore ruining it, it was because Bobs bag slipped into the mash !! or Bobs bag slipped into the mash because I holed my FV..

Hang on that could be String theory

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Yeasty wrote:Boy you guys are sharp tonight

And this is from the guy who puts a knife into his FV (What on earth was the knife doing in there? )

Yeasty wrote:I suppose its these little things that make the winning beers different from all the others. Artistic talent or luck?

I reckon it's having a good, robust recipe and some luck. I have no artistic talent so almost always steal my recipes from others. I also generally don't use any 'advanced' techniques except for a bit of pH adjustment. I am a very clean brewer though. Some recipes I have put in a comp and they always get a place.

Mind you, there are other recipes I enjoy more that I wouldn't even bother putting in a comp as they wouldn't stand out. For example, I've never had any luck with NRB's All Amarillo Pale Ale although it would be one of the most popular beers I brew.


PP

P.S. Bob, I think that small bag better become a hop sock. Nothing worse than a small bag .

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P.S. Bob, I think that small bag better become a hop sock. Nothing worse than a small bag .

To big for a hop sack (even for a hop-head) and to small for my pot! I should have known better? Everyone says that I have a big pot! So yesterdays brew was a disaster. I thought I had enough 2 row. I needed 20 pounds and I only had 12! I had to add 8 pounds of Golden Promise to make up the difference! Ran out of propane somewhere during the last half hour? Luckily I keep a spare but still how long was it out? I was on the forum wasting time when it died. Ran out of oxygen after oxygenating the first batch. I wanted both batches to be identical in preparation! I ended up with two 4 gallon batches rather than two five gallon! I started the yeast late so they didn't have time to multiply enough. One batch was no chilled the other immersion chilled for comparison. The immersion chiller had the exit side come loose and squirted hot water all over??

I thought I had this brew figured out? Chaos rears it's ugly head! Maybe, just maybe, I am just a knucklehead? If these beers make it they will be renamed the miracle beer!

I will have to repeat this experiment tomorrow after I go to the store and buy grain and a clamp for the chiller!

It's Mothers day I better call Mum! Yes, before anyone asks. I have a Mother!

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Typing on forums while brewing, yeah, I can relate to that Bob. The theory of relativity comes into play then... "It'll only take me a minute to write this post."

BobBrews wrote:Too big for a hop sack (even for a hop-head) and too small for my pot!

The bag will work fine as a hop sock. I use my mash bag as a hop sock. Just suspend it from a hook and let it 'float in the breeze.' I actually think its better than a small hop sock as the hops are less restricted. So, maybe the bag has a purpose yet .

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Bob what a nightmare, funny thing is the knife in my FV was there cos I used it as a screwdriver to tighted my hose clips to stop a leak

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Yeasty.

Tightening hose clamps with with a knife? What do you use to slice bread a screwdriver? Tool use problems? I am not going to take this any further because PP will jump on the obvious? You know that the reason that I no chill is that my immersion chiller leaked into my wort infecting it! So one time I pull it out of retirement and the dam thing blows up on me! I know it's my fault but this is why I N/C!

Yeasty, next time we get some donations we might just send you money to buy a screwdriver?

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I am jumping on the obvious immediately... Bob, why not use the "too small" mash bag as a hop sock?

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Bob, why not use the "too small" mash bag as a hop sock?

PP,
I plan to! Unless I can find someone with cash that has need for a "short" sack? I have some of the disposable hop sacks that work just fine. Lovely day today! Mothers day finally has a winner! No rain, warm, sunny. I've had shrimp on the barbie for breakfast and a steak later on today. Now, if I only could think of what I will have to drink today? Ive got it! Beer! What a inspiration that was!

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LOL Bob and good on you .

Leaking chillers are not fun. The O-rings tend to go quite quickly due to the heat so it's not a bad idea to keep some spares handy.

I think I'm going to braze some extensions on my chillers so as the connections, if they do leak, won't drip back into the pot. When do the jobs end?

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