I would do the same but my rack is 3-4cm off the bottom, and my bag (a craftbrewer one) is tapered, so there is nowhere near the full volume of wort within the bag. This coupled with the fact that the bag is so fine means that the wort outside the bag heats up a hell of a lot faster than the wort on the inside. I really need to simultaneously agitate the mash and recirculate the wort (via a 5l jug). The problem is the distinct lack of hands :-| Something I was hoping to work around with the hoist'n'heat method.
No matter, necessity is the mother of invention. I shall soldier on with my experiment and if I can get it to work reliably, I'll report my results.
I'll also try agitating it with constant heat and see if stubborn perseverance will do the trick.
Post #27 made 14 years ago
Got myself a deep frying basket which I cut the handle off (hope it doesnt take up too much of the urns volume, think I will just chuck it in after the mash to do mashout).
And also a camping mat which I did a pretty rough job trying to cut up (hope it doesnt melt, anyone know if polyethylene foam (EVA) will handle 100c temps?)
And also a camping mat which I did a pretty rough job trying to cut up (hope it doesnt melt, anyone know if polyethylene foam (EVA) will handle 100c temps?)
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Post #29 made 14 years ago
Nice work deebo 
I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I am re-writing anything. I suspect though that we need to consider two different scenarios that I certainly hadn't thought of until now...
1. Wide diameter kettles - These allow the bag to be "pulleyed" above the base of the kettle but not out of the wort as there is plenty of room. This means a lot of surface area of the wort is exposed and you certainly won't get the hot spot problem. (My kettles are wide so I never considered the below.) With this method, you still must give agitate the grain every now and then to even things out but it is certainly an easy method.
2. Narrow diameter kettles - I see now that you couldn't use the above 'easy' mashout method in some narrow diameter kettles as the bag, if left in the wort, would act as a 'lid' to the kettle. I can't see an easy solution to this problem because as soon as you pull the bag of grain out of the wort, it is going to lose it's heat at an extremely fast rate. Maybe the only solution in this situation is to stir whilst applying the heat.
I was unable to install a pulley for quite a few years so constant, gentle stirring is the way I mashed out. Read a book or have a beer whilst doing so perhaps?
The only other solution would be to make a stainless steel basket that is narrower than the kettle and line it with the bag. Some people have done this. I nearly did it after I first started out but after some thought, saw no real advantage to having the bag in a basket and have dismissed the idea ever since until now...
The bag in a basket might well be a useful thing for those who have the narrow diameter kettles.
Thanks for making me see this pimpsqueak
PP
P.S. I got a bit side-tracked above but no calculation could deal with pulling a bag and dropping it back in as there are too many variables between equipment sizes, calories etc. Hands on will always beat software at many stages of the brew. This is definitely one of them
Hi there ps,pimpsqueak wrote:Is there a calc for doing a mashout via pulling the bag, heating the wort then dropping the bag back in and stirring to equalise the temps? I can ramp up the temp pretty quick (2 degs a minute or so), so the bag won't lose much heat hanging just above the surface. Do you reackon I could use one of the calcs in Beersmith to figure it out with any degree of accuracy?
I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I am re-writing anything. I suspect though that we need to consider two different scenarios that I certainly hadn't thought of until now...
1. Wide diameter kettles - These allow the bag to be "pulleyed" above the base of the kettle but not out of the wort as there is plenty of room. This means a lot of surface area of the wort is exposed and you certainly won't get the hot spot problem. (My kettles are wide so I never considered the below.) With this method, you still must give agitate the grain every now and then to even things out but it is certainly an easy method.
2. Narrow diameter kettles - I see now that you couldn't use the above 'easy' mashout method in some narrow diameter kettles as the bag, if left in the wort, would act as a 'lid' to the kettle. I can't see an easy solution to this problem because as soon as you pull the bag of grain out of the wort, it is going to lose it's heat at an extremely fast rate. Maybe the only solution in this situation is to stir whilst applying the heat.
I was unable to install a pulley for quite a few years so constant, gentle stirring is the way I mashed out. Read a book or have a beer whilst doing so perhaps?
The only other solution would be to make a stainless steel basket that is narrower than the kettle and line it with the bag. Some people have done this. I nearly did it after I first started out but after some thought, saw no real advantage to having the bag in a basket and have dismissed the idea ever since until now...
The bag in a basket might well be a useful thing for those who have the narrow diameter kettles.
Thanks for making me see this pimpsqueak
PP
P.S. I got a bit side-tracked above but no calculation could deal with pulling a bag and dropping it back in as there are too many variables between equipment sizes, calories etc. Hands on will always beat software at many stages of the brew. This is definitely one of them
Last edited by PistolPatch on 31 Aug 2011, 20:07, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #30 made 14 years ago
I'm with you on the Hands On approach. I think I am going to make my next few brews with the same weight of grain bill and see if I can a: get a handle on the heat and stir method without melting anything or overheating the grist
b: see if I can stumble on a formula that works for me in my attempt at hoist-n-dunk.
Having said that, T.B was saying that heat and stir is preferable because of the gradual temp rise and enzymes still working right up to the cut off point, rather than an infusion or hoist n dunk that jumps the mash right up to mash out temp in just a few moments.
I do like experimenting, so it's looking like I'll have plenty of extra record keeping to do in the coming months.
b: see if I can stumble on a formula that works for me in my attempt at hoist-n-dunk.
Having said that, T.B was saying that heat and stir is preferable because of the gradual temp rise and enzymes still working right up to the cut off point, rather than an infusion or hoist n dunk that jumps the mash right up to mash out temp in just a few moments.
I do like experimenting, so it's looking like I'll have plenty of extra record keeping to do in the coming months.
Post #31 made 14 years ago
You can't go wrong with the heat and stir. It's not hard if you have a 'potato masher' mash padddle. (Traditional mash paddles are, honestly, totally impractical for any type of home all-grain brewing. They are copies of paddles used for large vats.*)
You need to monitor the period between end of mash and mash out and be prepared to spend the time doing this. It can't be automated. A new all-grainer automatically thinks that because BIAB is so simple, it must lack and not be able to do a lot of things that traditional brewers can do. The reverse is actually true...
For a traditional brewer to achieve mash out, they will either need a pump or they will have to add boiling water to their mash. With the latter, they still won't reach mash-out temps and who knows what boiling water scalding the grains will do? With the former, well, you need a pump and you can add one to BIAB if you want. The 'easy' mashout method I mentioned above, is excellent, it does what we want without the need of a pump. The apply heat and agitate method offers all advantages though it requires some manual labour.
You mention TB, so I think you mean ThirstyBoy. He and I agree on almost everything and when we don't it is usually a matter of a misunderstanding in our writings. What you say he has said above makes sense, doesn't it? BIAB offers the grain very even treatment that is impossible to achieve in other systens without a pump so be very, very confident in BIAB. In my opinion, it is actually a lot purer method of brewing when you really stop and think about it.
Traditional methods (*and paddles) are based on commercial systems where time in a specialised vessel is, obviously, the over-riding factor. These systems' aim is to try and find a compromise between quality and quantity. It's been a gradual process for me to realise this and undo the brain-washing. It started with a traditional brewer in Tokyo who saw the early BIAB threads and PM'ed me the wisdom of the first two sentences of this paragraph.
Now, I'm actually at the stage where I have no problem in saying that traditional brewers should be trying to copy many, if not all, aspects of BIAB rather than the reverse.
Does that make sense?
PP
You need to monitor the period between end of mash and mash out and be prepared to spend the time doing this. It can't be automated. A new all-grainer automatically thinks that because BIAB is so simple, it must lack and not be able to do a lot of things that traditional brewers can do. The reverse is actually true...
For a traditional brewer to achieve mash out, they will either need a pump or they will have to add boiling water to their mash. With the latter, they still won't reach mash-out temps and who knows what boiling water scalding the grains will do? With the former, well, you need a pump and you can add one to BIAB if you want. The 'easy' mashout method I mentioned above, is excellent, it does what we want without the need of a pump. The apply heat and agitate method offers all advantages though it requires some manual labour.
You mention TB, so I think you mean ThirstyBoy. He and I agree on almost everything and when we don't it is usually a matter of a misunderstanding in our writings. What you say he has said above makes sense, doesn't it? BIAB offers the grain very even treatment that is impossible to achieve in other systens without a pump so be very, very confident in BIAB. In my opinion, it is actually a lot purer method of brewing when you really stop and think about it.
Traditional methods (*and paddles) are based on commercial systems where time in a specialised vessel is, obviously, the over-riding factor. These systems' aim is to try and find a compromise between quality and quantity. It's been a gradual process for me to realise this and undo the brain-washing. It started with a traditional brewer in Tokyo who saw the early BIAB threads and PM'ed me the wisdom of the first two sentences of this paragraph.
Now, I'm actually at the stage where I have no problem in saying that traditional brewers should be trying to copy many, if not all, aspects of BIAB rather than the reverse.
Does that make sense?
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 31 Aug 2011, 22:46, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #32 made 14 years ago
Too bloody right it doesPistolPatch wrote: Does that make sense?
PP
Last edited by pimpsqueak on 01 Sep 2011, 06:49, edited 5 times in total.
Post #33 made 14 years ago
I've been thinking about cross-posting TBs comment from a parallel thread on AHB, so since it was brought up, here it is
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/i" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... t&p=811242
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/i" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... t&p=811242
Thirsty Boy @ AHB wrote: Mashout is something that is predominantly important for people who continuous sparge, especially in a commercial setting. Its because the sparge process can take a very long time. Most commercial plants would be running off for multiple hours, and if you are talking about a floating mash british style sprage... Maybe 4 hours or so. During at time, the fermentability profile of the beer can alter a lot. For all the talk of conversion happening in the first 20 minutes... that absolutely doesnt mean that in all cases nothing is happening in the mash after all the starches have been chopped up to the point where they dont register on an iodine test.
In a homebrew setting with a batch sparge that might take 15 minutes to do, it matters a whole lot less. Sure it might help your run off and give you a touch of extra efficiency, but thats mostly it.
In BIAB where the "sparge" process is over in seconds, there is basically no point in a mashout for stopping enzyme activity - thats not why you'd do it in BIAB. In BIAB the point of raising to mashout/sparge temperature is actually not a mashout in the traditional sense at all, its more final step in the mash itself. If you ramp and stir while you ramp, over a 5+ minute period till you reach say 76-78 degrees, then during that time of gradual temperature increase the last of the more stubborn to gelatinise starch will go into solution - and although they are on their way out due to the temp increase, the last of the enzymes will convert it. At about 78 you have exceeded the gelatinisation temp of even the most resistant starch in barley and most likely converted it too. You will probably notice a small increase in efficiency over a non "mash out" brew, and if there was any issue with unconverted starch in your brew (which will in a BIAB make it to the kettle and your beer, potentially causing haze) then you have dealt with it.
The imprtant bit is the ramp... If you do an "instant" raise of the grain temp like you'd get by hoisting the bag, heating the wort and dumping the bag back in, you get only part of the benefit because things happen too fast. The wort heat quickly and when dumped back in, the grain heats quickly - so you dissolve the starches alright, but there is a pretty good chance you have no enzymes left to convert them with. In that situation, the moderate case for bothering with a "mashout" in BIAB becomes pretty tenuous at best and counter productive at worst. If it was a choice between no mashout and a hoist and dump mashout (or an infusion) - I would choose no mashout.
So BIAB is for me one of the few places where a homebrewer is going to see any tangible enefit from a mashout, and even then only if conducted in a certain way - aside from that, unless you are fly sparging for an hour plus, its a marginal "improvement" at most.
Last edited by stux on 01 Sep 2011, 09:23, edited 5 times in total.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Post #34 made 14 years ago
Glad that last post of mine made some sense. By the time I had finished writing it I had a bit of fuel on board so was a bit worried it might have just read like a ramble 
Thanks for putting it up,
PP
That's a great post of TB's, stux. It would make a nice addition to the BIABrewer FAQs where TB has already written some answers.stux wrote:I've been thinking about cross-posting TBs comment from a parallel thread on AHB, so since it was brought up, here it is...
Thanks for putting it up
,PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 01 Sep 2011, 17:20, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #35 made 14 years ago
Indeed an interesting read stux, thanks for quoting it.
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Post #36 made 13 years ago
Hmmm,
I mash in at 68c, lag for 60 mins, then use a pulley system to slightly raise the bag, bring the wort to 76 degrees and leave for 15 mins without lagging again.
Am I doing it wrong? Should I mash for 90 mins?
I mash in at 68c, lag for 60 mins, then use a pulley system to slightly raise the bag, bring the wort to 76 degrees and leave for 15 mins without lagging again.
Am I doing it wrong? Should I mash for 90 mins?
Post #37 made 13 years ago
Brewpunk wrote:Hmmm,
I mash in at 68c, lag for 60 mins, then use a pulley system to slightly raise the bag, bring the wort to 76 degrees and leave for 15 mins without lagging again.
Am I doing it wrong? Should I mash for 90 mins?
The first part is fine... ie mash at 68°C for 60min.
But for the mashout, just apply your heat whilst stirring. As soon as you get to 76°C to 80°C, just pull the bag and grain out. No need to wait 15.
Think to yourself, what am I waiting for? In traditional mash brewing, one would wait for the grain bed to resettle before lautering. No need in BIAB. Once your grain and wort is at the desired mashout temp, you'll have stopped all enzyme activity and made it easier for the sugaz to slip away from the grist.
Cheers
Last edited by argon5000 on 05 Jan 2012, 07:32, edited 5 times in total.
Post #39 made 13 years ago
I leave my mashout for 20 minutes at 77°C, I understand there is no need if you throw all of your grains into the mash. I don't, only the base malts go into the mash and the specialty grains (those that cam be steeped) go in at mash out. So leaving it at mashout temp. for 20 minutes is beneficial for my beers.argon5000 wrote:
The first part is fine... ie mash at 68°C for 60min.
But for the mashout, just apply your heat whilst stirring. As soon as you get to 76°C to 80°C, just pull the bag and grain out. No need to wait 15.
Think to yourself, what am I waiting for? In traditional mash brewing, one would wait for the grain bed to resettle before lautering. No need in BIAB. Once your grain and wort is at the desired mashout temp, you'll have stopped all enzyme activity and made it easier for the sugaz to slip away from the grist.
Cheers
Last edited by hashie on 05 Jan 2012, 14:19, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #40 made 13 years ago
What is the advantage of throwing specialty grains later, hashie?
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Post #41 made 13 years ago
There's a theory that, as most of the specialty grains that only need steeping, not a full mash, are dark and have very distictive flavours(Crystal, Caraaroma) if not black (Carafa, Roast Barley)then there's no benefit to putting them in at the beginning of the mash as they have been mashed in the husk already, or in the case of RB don't need mashing. So some of them may even release unwanted side flavours if exposed to a long soak in the mash. Interesting that Guinness use their roast barley in the form of an extract of some sort that is prepared in Dublin and is added right at the end of the mash.
Apart from Roast Barley I haven't, myself, added the spec grains late.
On another topic, I use a 40L urn and sit one of these curved roasting racks in the bottom,
which keeps the bag off the element so I can do a mashout by applying direct heat, whilst constantly pumping up and down with my paint stirring tool. I also have an over-the-side element as a supplementary heat source and it only takes me a few mins to get to mashout, particularly if I have done a Hochkurz style stepped mash and only need to get from 71 to 78.
Apart from Roast Barley I haven't, myself, added the spec grains late.
On another topic, I use a 40L urn and sit one of these curved roasting racks in the bottom,
Last edited by Beachbum on 05 Jan 2012, 18:00, edited 5 times in total.
Post #42 made 13 years ago
PP wrote
trout
Pistol, looks like a good sig line.be very, very confident in BIAB. In my opinion, it is actually a lot purer method of brewing when you really stop and think about it.
trout
Last edited by 2trout on 05 Jan 2012, 23:16, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #43 made 13 years ago
Zelig,
There is a good discussion of you question here http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=246. Hashie has some interesting things to say. Ive been steeping speciality grains as Hashie described.
There is a good discussion of you question here http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=246. Hashie has some interesting things to say. Ive been steeping speciality grains as Hashie described.
Last edited by 2trout on 05 Jan 2012, 23:29, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #44 made 13 years ago
Thanks for putting that link in 2trout, it should explain everything 
By the way, how do you find your beers using this method?
By the way, how do you find your beers using this method?
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #45 made 13 years ago
Interesting reading, thanks for the link!
I never do the mashout (as you may know, I'm for keeping things as simple as possible!), but if the separate steeping of specialty grains can improve beer quality, maybe it's worth a try!
What about steeping dark grains in a separate pot with few liter of water, while the mash is finishing, and then adding it to the main pot after pulling the grains?
I never do the mashout (as you may know, I'm for keeping things as simple as possible!), but if the separate steeping of specialty grains can improve beer quality, maybe it's worth a try!
What about steeping dark grains in a separate pot with few liter of water, while the mash is finishing, and then adding it to the main pot after pulling the grains?
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