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Silicone Fabricated Fermenter ?

Post #1 made 14 years ago
by STAG
Hey guys

I know I have`nt posted here for ages but I have popped in fairly often
to keep abreast of all the good things going on.
In between work pressures I have been busy and have nearly completed my
brewing machine, obviously called `The Stag`.
I got loads to tell you and show you and discuss, Like my 3 pipe counterflow chiller idea,
that at the moment only uses 1.5 metres of tubing to cool from boil to 20 deg C.

I dont have a ball valve or anything else fitted/drilled or welded to my pot (to help with cleaning etc).
Instead I place my pump directly into my pot and pump thru the chiller.
Took me a while to source the right pump. £39 delivered

My brewbag (not completed yet) consists of 5 seperate wire mesh discs that are kept apart
within an outer tube, in order to seperate the full volume of grain and allow better
natural sparging during the mashing stage.

I have an electric hoist simply made from a cars window motor/gearbox. The voltage 5-24V
is controlled thru a really cheap device which lets me alter the voltage/motor speed.
In other words I can really slowly lower the grain bag to create an underletting effect
and slowly wet all of the grain, without any dough balls.
A quick up and down burst of the hoist will hopefully act as a sparge/rinse of the grain.

My brew pot sits on a tripod system that has the load cells (stripped from a postal scale)
positioned under each foot and now I have an electronic reading of the weight, IE the water volume pre-mash,
pre-boil or pre-chilling, useful for recreating recipes with more precision. ( I hope)

At the moment I am looking into fermenters, those stainless conicals are what I want but
cost a lot.
Any way I had this idea for making a cheap conical I`d like you guys to look at and hopefully
between us we could devise a sensible workable solution.
I have not worked with liquid silicone before but there must be a way.
Just a rough outline of the plan -
http://www.stag-brewing.co.uk/Silicone% ... menter.gif
Last edited by STAG on 27 Mar 2012, 00:58, edited 3 times in total.
STAG = Single Tun All Grain

Post #3 made 14 years ago
by BrickBrewHaus
I agree. Its a cool idea if nothing else. A couple of questions/comments...

Are you removing the balloon from the inside after coating the different layers? If so, are you then removing the wax layer coating the balloon? I would be concerned about that contacting the beer. But based on the title of the thread, I assume the balloon and wax layers will be removed.

I don't think filling the empty area with spray foam is a good idea. With that much insulation I think controlling fermentation temps would be very difficult. You mention putting a brew belt around it before insulating, but you will most certainly be more concerned about cooling it. I don't think simply putting it in a refrigerator will work well with all of that insulation. Could be wrong though.

Post #4 made 14 years ago
by stux
An interesting thing with the scales, given a weight and a gravity/Plato reading (from a refractometer) you can work out all sorts of cool things, like your exact amount of extract in kilograms and actual grain absorption

I think you might enjoy looking into some of the extract density and wort calculations that go into the ce biabcalc and the theory behind it ;)

For example I derive the weight from gravity and volume and then derive extract amounts, but if you have weight you cann skip all those steps. One day, if you're interested it would be interesting to discuss a brew day based on weight and gravity instead of volumes
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #5 made 14 years ago
by STAG
What got me started on the idea was my daughters exercise ball, you know those really big elastic ones
you can sit on. All can find is that they are made from PVC, no specific info. We all know the smell
of some pvc materials would no doubt impart flavours to the beer, but there are loads of pvc grades that
are used in food packaging. I cant detect any smell from the ball so it alone might be useful.
I read somewhere that a spherical shape would be ideal for fermentation.

Hi BrickBrewHaus,
your comments are what I was hoping for because these will help develop the idea.
Yes the wax coating is only there as a release agent to remove the balloon afterwards.
This must be washed off.
The insulation was added more as a security against dropping and maybe cracking the shell,
we would need to establish a suitable shell material and means of adding it.
The shell would need to adhere to the silicone to keep the conical inside smooth.
perhaps the air pressure could be increased as the silicone was curing to iron out any flaws.

Maybe we could add a premade attachment of protruding blots and embed that into the shell as the layers are built up,
giving us an easy hardware mounting solution.

Temp control- well i spose we could go all the way with a cooling/heating setup built in an around
the conical and still call it a cheap conical as the setup would have been a seperate cost anyway.
I have got hold of a hot/cold water dispenser from work, it has a small compressor for cooling and
element controlled heater which i`m hoping to put to use.

Hey stux,
I never realised how much info could be gained from knowing the weight, I was more thinking
exact recipe and exact volume must improve repeatability. I`ll definately be in touch with you
when I`m ready to go.
Although there are 3 load cells measuring the weight, I also connected up the 4th one to a simple
thumbscrew holder which I thought might be useful for calibrating the system if needed.
I`ll definately be using the biabcalc, that looks amazing.
STAG = Single Tun All Grain

Post #6 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Welcome back Stag :thumbs:,

I think we have all missed your ideas. Make sure you keep us updated on your brewing machine etc. Would love to see some pics.

One important thing with the silicone would be to source the right silicone. I have some food-grade silicone bung that acts as a blow-off as well. One bit of it is only s few mms thick and no matter how hard you stretch it, it won't break. Amazing stuff! So puncturing would be your only worry I think.

With SS conicals, you actually need quite a steep angle for the trub to drain. It tends to stick to the sides much easier than you'd think. In fact tapping the conical to get the trub to move is not uncommon. Maybe with the silicone, you could just give the sides a push to break the trub away?

As conicals are often not very efficient space-wise, I think heating and cooling is going to be important. I used to use a mini-immersion chiller in my fermentors that had water from a fridge kept in a container, pumped through it via a pond pump and temp controller. This worked really well.

I like your idea of building in mounts to the silicone as you want to be able to clean the thing inside and outside easilly. Oh no! Cleaning. Mmmm, you'd want to make sure the hardware could come off easily as you really would have to pull everything apart after every brew. This might take some carfel thinking as you want the fermentor to serve you not the other way around :P.

Looking forward to seeing pics of 'The Stag'.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 27 Mar 2012, 16:54, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #7 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
Hi Stag

This is a very interesting idea. However I think if you are going to the trouble of building a box/support structure for your ballon you may as well ditch the ballon all together and build a wooded conical then line it with the silicone material. If the stuff is sprayable ( which I think it is) you will be able to get a nice smooth finish.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #9 made 14 years ago
by deebo
Sounds interesting.
Silicone is pretty soft isnt it? Would the silicone bulge out at the bottom like a balloon full of water? (might be a bit hard to support while also allowing it to radiate heat out)

Post #10 made 14 years ago
by stux
I've just purchased some 60L fermenter bags. The idea is you line your 60L fermenter with a bag and then ferment in the bag. Then rack out and toss the bag... And you have a clean fermenter.

I think you could avoid the whole complexity by going for a suitable bag you could ferment in and then find a suitable spherical container.

And then the cleanup would be good too ;)
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #12 made 14 years ago
by STAG
Howdy PP thanks for the welcome back, I`m in the process of making a website, hopefully wont be too long.
Could you show us your mini-immersion chiller please.
Just to go back to the PVC ball - as it can stretch easily would it be an advantage to leave out using
a bubbler and let the co2 build up naturally, this increase in pressure, would it send dead cells to the bottom ?
whilst also providing a thick co2 layer on top.
These balls are made from rotation moulding, if there was a way to get the silicone to positively adhere to the pvc
we could perhaps pour in the liquid silicone and spin the shit out of the ball (rotation mould) the silicone until cured.
then you`d still have a stretchy ball which as you say would help shift the crud. Also after mounting the hardware
you could make a simple frame that holds the main ball shape whilst enabling you to pull down the bottom half thereby
creating a cone shaped bottom.

Hi There Yeasty,
I like the idea, quite difficult to make the shapes and certainly not for any joe wishing to follow our lead.
Made in an upper half (round bore) and bottom half (conical bore) You`d have to bond/bolt together blocks of wood
strong enough to withstand machining. I`m hoping for a 60 litre conical. big chunks of wood mate. Am I mis-understanding
your concept ?

You know we could make up a male shaped conical,(would be a lot easier to manufacture than a female) polish to a really
smooth finish, coat with the siicone, cure and then simply remove the silicone skin, this could be shipped to whoever
wants one and they make up the framework needed to support it.
STAG = Single Tun All Grain

Post #13 made 14 years ago
by stux
joshua wrote:Good Day Stux, what are the fermenter bags??? They sound like a great idea!
Are the only available in AussieLand??? or just a regional thing??

Or are you doing something like this http://backyardbrewer.blogspot.com/2010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... n-bag.html
If you have a look at the brewing video at this link you can see them in use

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/i" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... opic=63044

And in the thread I discuss it with Ross, who I later bought ten off

Some info on US fermenter liners : http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtop" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 3&start=15
Last edited by stux on 28 Mar 2012, 05:01, edited 4 times in total.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #14 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
Hi Stag

Try googling boat building, those guys really know there stuff especially the fiberglass boat builders who make whats called a plug from which they make the moulds.

Another way could be to cut the bottom out of a large pot like one of PP's 70L kettles. this would give you a cylinder. Then using your moulding idea make a large silicone cone/funnel that could be jubilee clipped to the bottom of the cylinder. You would have to rig up some sort of support structure. Perhaps a large bag ? or could you reinforce the silicone as you build up the layers with voile/webbing ?
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #15 made 14 years ago
by joshua
Good Day, Thank you Stux for the link to to the Bag maker link.
In my part of the world, this idea is way into the future!
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #16 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hey there again stag,

Not sure about letting the pressure just build up. That would end up being a fair bit of pressure I'd imagine :scratch:.

Here's the details on the mini immersion chiller. Not sure how'd you'd fit it inside the silicone fermentor though as the opeings would be much smaller than mine :think:.

Mini Immersion Chiller

When I first started Ag I was in a pretty small apartment so space was a real premium. Basically I had one fridge for beer. In this I used to have kegs and in those days, a few plastic containers to keep the beer in until I had space in the kegs.

On top of this fridge, I used to keep my large cooler (which I also used as a mash tun back then) and inside that cooler I could fit a fermentor. Often it would be 35 C so keeping the fermentor cool was a problem that the mini immersion chiller solved.

Here's a few pics of the set-up. (Best pics I can find as it was a long time ago now.) Firstly here's the fridge. Those blue containers are 25 L but for my cold water reservoir (not pictured) I would just use a 10L container with the top cut off and the submersible pond pump would be in that. I used to put this container on the top shelf.
Complete Set Up - Open.jpg
Here's a pic of the mini immersion chiller.
MiniIC.jpg
And here's a pic of the fermentor sitting inside the cooler. (I don't think this pic has the mini-immersion chiller inside the fermentor but just imagine you can see two beer lines going into two copper bits sticking out of the fermentor lid ;)).
Fermenter Box.jpg
The top of the fridge had a hole drilled in the middle (still does :)) and I fed a supply and return line up through this hole through a hole at the 'bottom' of the cooler. (This hole in the cooler was used to attach a tap when I was mashing.)

So basically, the submersible pump would run chilled water up, through the top of the fridge and into the mini-immersion chiller. The warm water would return back to the resevoir. I also just remembered that back then I didn't run it on a temp controller although you could. I only needed to run it once or twice a day to maintain temperatures.

I'm actually thinking of returning to this idea mainly to get brews down to pitching temperature as tap water is usually very hot here. I have a fridge/freezer as well now and the freezer part can hold 2 x 20 litre cubes of glycol so there are a lot more options available to me now. (You need a lot more than a 10 litre supply of chilled water to get a brew from 30C to 9C.)

I'm not sure about having a copper chiller in a fermentor but I'm not really worried about it.

Sorry my pics are so crappy mate ;)
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 28 Mar 2012, 20:54, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #17 made 14 years ago
by STAG
Thats a pretty sweet deal there Patch
(This hole in the cooler was used to attach a tap when I was mashing.)
some good engenuity.
Actually I might have to steal this idea from you. Although I originally spoke
of perhaps using a brewbelt, here in the UK winters are pretty shit cold and a lot
of guys use the belts. My brewroom has no heating and does get bloody cold, but summer is on the way so a hot/cold feed thru the fermenter neck sounds great.
Could possibly hack the top part off of one these type barrels and attach it to the silicone job.
But stux idea of a throwaway bag is also pretty neat. hmmm lots of food for thought.
cheers mate.
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Last edited by STAG on 29 Mar 2012, 01:18, edited 3 times in total.
STAG = Single Tun All Grain

Post #18 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Steal away :P. Maybe in cold weather you could move the water resevoir to the oven :lol:.

I reckon building the silicone fermenter would be a pretty massive undertaking so I'd certainly think twice on embarking on the project. The good thing about normal fermentors is they are relatively space-efficient so if you can get a fermenting fridge that can fit two fermentors, that's always a great thing whether you need to keep them cool or hot.

:peace:
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Post #19 made 14 years ago
by STAG
I reckon building the silicone fermenter would be a pretty massive undertaking so I'd certainly think twice on embarking on the project.
Tnx for your honesty. :clap:
This thread was started because I wanna believe there is much cheaper alternative. Something that can be built by most guys with half a brain cell and on a tight budget.
Hey dont burst my (silicone) bubble just yet.
Come on biabrewer team. lets have your answers.

Things like "lets take an elephants ballbag and use that" dont count. :argh:
Last edited by STAG on 30 Mar 2012, 05:57, edited 3 times in total.
STAG = Single Tun All Grain

Post #20 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
STAG wrote:Hey dont burst my (silicone) bubble just yet.
:lol:

Stag, have a watch of this video. 3D printing is very cheap these days so if you can do the drawing then maybe you can get it 3D printed cheaply?

I'm not sure if it is an option but it might be worth a little investigating? It could also be an option for some of your other ideas? (Apparently you can buy a 3d printer for $300!)

Just thinking out loud mate ;).
Last edited by PistolPatch on 30 Mar 2012, 19:00, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #21 made 14 years ago
by STAG
Thanks for that. Really amazing, To see how far they`ve come with metal sintering
is mind blowing. yeah I`m drooling here mate.

The lady really nailed her presentation.

$300 dollars ? did you get to see that offer
STAG = Single Tun All Grain

Post #22 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Glad you enjoyed that Stag. TED is an amazing site. I download all the talks as audio and listen to them while I work. All the speakers are amazing.

I did do a quick search on 3D printers before posting here yesterday. This link will interest you as you can actually build a 3D printer yourself.

:o
Last edited by PistolPatch on 31 Mar 2012, 07:50, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #23 made 14 years ago
by STAG
Yeah I was all over reprap a few yrs ago when I was into my cnc ice machine.
might get back to 3d layering again one day, really interests me.
STAG = Single Tun All Grain

Post #25 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Yeasty wrote:I lost 2 hours of work time yesterday :idiot:
:lol: You can't beat a TED talk. (Let me know off-forum what you listened to or saw.)

Stag, I'd love to see what you'd come up with if locked in a room with a 3D printer and unlimited cad training for a few years. That would be very cool!

:thumbs:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 31 Mar 2012, 23:04, edited 3 times in total.
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