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30l Urn, first AG brew

Post #1 made 14 years ago
by Stefan
Hi all,

New to the forum, new to brewing, new to AG and new to BIAB! But hoping to make a success of it all :)

I have been looking around for adequate kettles etc.. and it seems that my best option is a 2nd hand 30l urn that I have found in the classifieds. Will hopefully go pick it up in the next day or 2. I was going to wait a little longer to go AG but the urn at this price just seems too good to pass up!

Anyways, been trying to read as much as possible but I still have a few questions about what I can expect, recipes, volumes etc...

Using the BIAB calculator, I was only able to get the approx. mash volume down to 30l by changing the brew length to 12l. Does this sound about right? If I do a straight BIAB brew, I would expect to get about 12l of beer at the end?

Also, in terms of recipes and methods etc... I am feeling a little bit overwhelmed by all the options out there. The http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=80 thread is fantastic but I am unclear about how to tailor that to my urn size and also which grains to use and in what proportions (same goes with the hops). I have access to the stock from the following website here in South Africa http://www.africanhomebrewing.co.za/ind ... &Itemid=53 so would want to use these ingredients.

Sorry for the totally newbie questions. I could probably try and wing it but wouldn't want to waste all that beery, hoppy, malty goodness :)

Thanks in advance

Stefan
Last edited by Stefan on 15 Mar 2011, 14:19, edited 5 times in total.

Post #3 made 14 years ago
by dick
G'day Stefan

I replied to your pm before seeing this post. I have pasted my reply here because others might find it useful:

A 30L urn is great for BIAB. If you can source a 40L urn then I think that is better but if not then 30L is fine. Here is my procedure.

- heat 20L of water to strike temperature.
- put in bag
- add grain then stir. Make sure there are no dough balls. Check temperature. I find that the temperature drops by about 3 degrees after the grain absorbs some of the heat.
- I have a camping mat around the urn to reduce heat loss. I put the lid on also to reduce heat loss. I check the temp every 30 minutes and usually add a bit of heat to get back to the right mash temp. I nearly always mash for 90 minutes
- after mashing is finished, raise the bag and drain for a few minutes using a rope going through a pulley and tied off on a cleat
- I get about 16L after the grain is removed
- 30 minutes before the end of mash, I boil the kettle a few times and get 8L of hot water in a 19L stockpot. I transfer the bag with grain to this and I stir and let sit for a few minutes. Meanwhile the urn is taking the wort up to boiling.
- remove the bag from the 19L stockpot. You have just done a batch sparge which isn't really needed but since I am adding water anyway I think I might as well do it.
- add the wort from the stockpot to the urn. I now have about 25L in the urn which is good for not boiling over the sides
- do the boil & hop additions
- towards the end of the boil I boil the kettle and add about 4L of boiling water. I aim to have 25L at the end of boil so I can put about 20L into a cube and have 5L of trub
- turn urn off and then I whirlpool then let sit for 15 minutes. It is covered by aluminium foil
- then I transfer to the cube for no-chill

I hope that explains the process. Just ask if you have any questions. Your first batch seems really hard to do but it is so much easier than you think. Just relax and enjoy it.

Cheers
Dick
:thumbs:

Post #4 made 14 years ago
by Stefan
G'day from SA!

Thanks so much. That seems VERY doable and I am assuming I can just get the grain amounts and temps from your recipe here http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=254. Do you have any other recipes customised to this method yet? I will tackle the recipe conversion thing on my next batch ;)

Thanks for the recipe advice as well! Sounds like a nice beer to start with and I will give it a bash! Will contact the guy I get the Hops from and ask about the AA%. I generally prefer amber slightly bitter beers but I think this will be a great one, which is easily accessible for all my friends (and my wife too!) so seems like a good option.

Thanks so much for all the help. This really seems achievable now :) will hopefully have gathered everything I need by this time next week! Will keep in touch.

Thanks again

Stefan
Last edited by Stefan on 16 Mar 2011, 14:24, edited 5 times in total.

Post #5 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
I wish I could write like dick does Stefan - simple and short! I think the quick 'batch-sparge' that dick mentioned is important when brewing like this. It's hardly any extra effort for considerable reward.

Congratulations stefan on taking the plunge and excellent post dick :peace:.

[Edit: Oh and it looks like you are using The Calculator correctly. The Calculator assumes that you will do a pure BIAB. This means a full-volume mash with a simultaneous passive sparge requiring one kettle and one bag.]
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Post #6 made 14 years ago
by dick
Stefan wrote:
I generally prefer amber slightly bitter beers
Do you mean you like English bitters or American amber ales or...? If English then this works out quite well:
85% pale ale grain
5% wheat (for head retention)
5% aromatic (for rich, complex malty flavours - can use amber grain instead)
5% medium crystal (for those sweet caramelly & toffee flavours)

Aim for 1.050 SG and 1.010 FG. Mash at about 65-66.

Use East Kent Goldings for bittering and about 0.5g/L to 0.75g/L at about 10 minutes for flavouring. Aim for 35-38 IBU to get some bitterness in there to cut through that rich maltiness. I can't remember what other hops your LBHS had, but there wasn't much there.

I also see that you are limited to dry yeasts so go with S-04. I haven't used that myself but it is meant to be suitable for English beers. Ferment at 19 degrees. I try to use a yeast that adds another dimension to the maltiness and there are lots of liquid yeasts to try if you can get some.

Good luck with it Stefan. :peace:
Last edited by dick on 17 Mar 2011, 10:42, edited 5 times in total.

Post #7 made 14 years ago
by Stefan
Ok. So still super keen but have been thinking about things a bit. In all likelihood I will be heading to Vancouver in about 3 months to study/work for the next 2 years so am a little reluctant to invest too much money at this point. I can either buy a second hand urn and sell it or I can simply hire an urn for a day or 2. I am REALLY keen to get at least 1 AG brew under my belt before I leave :)

Here's the question. Does this process leave any smells in the urn or does a good clean get it all out? Am worried as the hiring company may complain if their tea-urn comes back smelling like grain :)

Post #8 made 14 years ago
by dick
Stefan wrote:Ok. So still super keen but have been thinking about things a bit. In all likelihood I will be heading to Vancouver in about 3 months to study/work for the next 2 years so am a little reluctant to invest too much money at this point. I can either buy a second hand urn and sell it or I can simply hire an urn for a day or 2. I am REALLY keen to get at least 1 AG brew under my belt before I leave :)

Here's the question. Does this process leave any smells in the urn or does a good clean get it all out? Am worried as the hiring company may complain if their tea-urn comes back smelling like grain :)
Or you can buy a second hand urn, brew with it, then take it to Canada with you and keep brewing!! :drink: Just check out the electrical supply side of things first.

If you hire the urn, it shouldn't be a problem to give it back without any offensive odours. I clean mine with a nylon scourer and a bit of detergent.
Last edited by dick on 24 Mar 2011, 19:19, edited 5 times in total.

Post #9 made 14 years ago
by Stefan
YAY!

Just got my malts. Bought 4kg of Pale Malt, 1kg of Crystal and 1kg of Melanoidin (sp?) as well as 100g of Cascade Hops.

Just need to wait for my current extract + spray dried malt brew to finish and then I'll tackle this one.

Can't wait!

Post #10 made 14 years ago
by Stefan
Hey all,

Finally got everything together and did my brew yesterday! Took a along time (as expected) but was super interesting! Had a few hiccups along the way, which I will describe below, but hopefully it all worked out in the end! Only time will tell :)

So first off, the urn I used was a 36l urn which I rented for the weekend for the equivalent of $10US, which I though wasn't too bad since they go for about $200 here new! Was a good way to try it out. Also, I was looking for a 30l urn but the 36 was great as I had no worried about boil-overs etc... Luckily, the urn also didn't have any safety shut-off mechanism so for the boil I could just set it to 6 and it kept up a great rolling boil!
Image

For the recipe, Dick gave me a modified version of his 'Eurobeer' recipe. The only thing I did to that was add the Melanoidin Malt. So my recipe ended up being 4kg Pale Malt, 200g Crystal Malt and 100g Melanoidin. In the pic below you can see the malts, my muslin cloth bag and my multimeter which has a thermocouple attachment for measuring temperature (very useful!).
Image
Brought the water temp up to 70C, then turned off the element, removed the lid and pegged the bag to the edges of the Urn. Then slowly added the grain and stirred well with my brew spoon! Image below is after I added and stirred in the grain. Temp dropped down to about 63C so put the element on and brought back up to 67C before closing it up and putting my sleeping bag over it!
Image
Left it to Mash for the full 90min before opening and re-stirring. Once I opened it the temp had risen to about 69 (first mistake)! Must have been the latent heat in the element. Hope this isn't much of a problem. Wort tasted really good and sweet so hoping for the best! Pulled the bag out and let it strain for quite some time.
Image

I then transferred it to my fermentation bucket, pegged open the bag again and poured 4l of boiling water from the kettle over the grains to help strain out all the goodness. My version of a sparge! Added this water and then topped up to 25l while bringing to the boil!
Image
Once it came to the boil, I added hops and this is where I really started to mess things up and wing it! I went to a local beer festival the day before (Saturday) and chatted to the guy I got my Hops from. I was pretty sure he said that the AA% was 4.8% so I did my calculations based on this and added 30g of hops as my first addition. Only after about 15min did I notice that the hops packet actually had '7.0' written on it, which I then twigged was actually the AA% so I re-did my calcs and realised it was WAY too much hops so I pulled the bag out, opened it and spooned out just under half the hops and then re-sealed the bag and put it back in. After a bit of re-calculations I realised that I may have left too little in the bag! After a whole lot of confusion and rushed decisions I ended up boiling for 90min with a second hop addition of 12g 20min before the end and a 3rd hop addition of 6g 10min before the end. I was tasting regularly after the first 60min and I think I got it to a bitterness level I like, although it's pretty hard to tell with all that sweetness there. Hoping for the best and will see what happens!

For the last few mins of the boil I put the lid on to sterilise and then turned off the urn and left it for about 4hours to cool. By this time it had only come down to about 65C. I then put it into my sterile fermenter to cool overnight. Filled the airlock with about 80% alcohol to 'sterlise' the incoming air as much as possible. Am pretty worried about contamination from my slow cool-down but who knows, might be ok. This morning the wort was at 28 so I pitched in some Safale s-04!

Lets hope for the best :)

Will report back as things start happening.

Oh, the OG is 1.040 which is about right for Dick's recipe.
Last edited by Stefan on 18 Apr 2011, 16:36, edited 5 times in total.

Post #11 made 14 years ago
by dick
Well done Stefan. :clap: I think that you have nailed it. You only had a small problem with the AA content of the hops but that won't matter too much. It sounds like you have a nice APA underway.

What volume did you have at the end of the boil? You need this to work out your efficiency so as to get the OG where you want it to be. Only other comment would be that the temperature of the wort when pitching is a bit high.

:thumbs:

Post #13 made 14 years ago
by Stefan
Dick: At the end of the boil it was around 21l. How do I use this to calculate efficiency and how does that effect OG? In terms of measuring the OG, I just removed some of the wort into my measuring cylinder when it was still pretty hot and left it to cool to room temp, then measured the gravity.

Yep, the wort was pretty warm but wanted to get the yeast in ASAP as I was worried about contamination. Also, when reading about S-04 they said that to make a starter one should use wort (or other medium) at 27C +-3C. So since mine was in this range, I thought it would get it started nice and quick while it continued to cool down to ambient. The yeast did start nicely. By the time I got home last night the airlock was bubbling very nicely :)

Hashie: Indeed. Hook, line and sinker!

Post #15 made 14 years ago
by Stefan
Joshua, good to know :) Temp is warm. Around 22C+ so I don't think thats the issue. Will test gravity now and then again tomorrow evening and see. Will post here what I find

Post #16 made 14 years ago
by housecat
Stefan,

Josh is on the money, check your gravity.
Also, don't put too much faith in the air lock! You may have a slight leak around your lid and the yeast may not be producing enough CO2 to push past your airlock.

Most people bypass the airlock/lid all together and use clingwrap and the rubber seal from the lid on the top of their FV.

To really know if it is fermenting or has finished is to take a gravity reading.
Then and only then will you know if your brew has finished fermenting or if it is still active.

HC
Part of the NoAd brewers

My mum says I'm cool.

Post #17 made 14 years ago
by Stefan
Ya, was just a bit surprised. The gravity at the moment is at about 1.011. So will see what it says tomorrow evening!

Seem to have got some trub or something from the boil :( some chunky bits coming out of the tap, not great. Hopefully will settle. Unfortunately have nowhere to do secondary so straight into bottles after this!

Post #18 made 14 years ago
by housecat
Don't be too rushed to get it off of the yeast cake, even if fermentation has "finished", the yeasties are still in there cleaning up after them selves. I usually leave my brews on the cake for around ten or more days (pending on beer levels at the time!)
Not too sure if having temp control or not will affect doing this though. (I have temp control so I feel comfortable leaving brews for longer) Maybe someone else can comment on that.

Also, make sure you get a clean sample of beer from your fermenter when you check the gravity by throwing out (drinking) the first bit that comes out of the tap. As you saw, yeast and other trub gathers there and will distort your reading.

HC
Part of the NoAd brewers

My mum says I'm cool.

Post #19 made 14 years ago
by hashie
Stefan, you are getting some great advice from Housecat and Joshua. The only thing I can add is patience.

All brews will improve with time to let the yeast do it's work. Especially after a quick ferment, it's important to give the yeast time to clean up the flavours and aromas that are produced.

My preference on most of my brews is to ferment at ~16°C for a minimum of 8 days.
Last edited by hashie on 20 Apr 2011, 05:57, edited 5 times in total.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #20 made 14 years ago
by dick
Stefan wrote:Dick: At the end of the boil it was around 21l. How do I use this to calculate efficiency and how does that effect OG? In terms of measuring the OG, I just removed some of the wort into my measuring cylinder when it was still pretty hot and left it to cool to room temp, then measured the gravity.
Hi Stefan

I didn't make that very clear. I meant that you need to know the efficiency of your process so you can get the OG right for future brews. To calculate efficiency at end of boil you need:
1. OG (1.040) - we just need what is after the decimal point, and leave the decimal point out
2. volume at end of boil (21L)
3. total grain bill (4.3kg)

So in your case:
efficiency = (40 x 21)/(4.3 x 307) = 64%

307 is just a mysterious mathematical entity that makes the good girls go bad.

So you can rearrange this equation to predict the OG of your brews. 64% is probably a bit lower efficiency than most but normal for your first attempt.

Cheers
Dick
Last edited by dick on 20 Apr 2011, 06:12, edited 5 times in total.

Post #21 made 14 years ago
by Stefan
Hey all,

First of all I just want to say thanks for all the great information. I have learnt so much from this brew! Going to go into my next one with far more knowledge behind me :)

Going on Holiday mid next week so will leave it as long as possible before I bottle and then leave it to mature in the bottle for 3 weeks while I am away. Should be great on my return (I hope)!

Did another gravity measure this evening and it seems to still be fermenting very slowly. Either that or the bit of trub I had in the measuring cylinder last night effected the reading (both very likely) but will just let it settle for a few days now. So far the taste isn't quite what I was aiming for. Tastes very fruity, which I think is from all the late hop additions. Also almost imperceptible bitterness :( Didn't want lots of bitterness but wanted a bit of crispness. Will see how it turns out later.

All in all going along fairly well :)

Dick: what kinds of things would increase my efficiency? Things like better mash temps, stirring grain during mash, better 'sparge', mashing out (still not 100% what that is), that kind of thing?

Post #22 made 14 years ago
by Stefan
Joshua, that's really interesting. It never even crossed my mind that that could be the reason for raising the temp for mash out :)

What other things could increase my efficiency?

Post #23 made 14 years ago
by stux
Fruity tastes are a symptom of warm fermentation

Which you had

Fast fermentation is also a symptom ;)

Ferment at lower temps for cleaner and less fruity beers
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
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Post #24 made 14 years ago
by Stefan
OK. So been away on Holiday and only back now. Took some of the beers with and unfortunately my stuff-up with the hop additions has resulted in a way too hoppy flavour. Pretty tempted to dump the batch :(

Any ideas of what else can be done with the beer? ;) hehe

Post #25 made 14 years ago
by Beer O'Clock
Stefan wrote:OK. So been away on Holiday and only back now. Took some of the beers with and unfortunately my stuff-up with the hop additions has resulted in a way too hoppy flavour. Pretty tempted to dump the batch :(

Any ideas of what else can be done with the beer? ;) hehe
OK. Give it away, blend it or add lemonade and turn it into a "shandy", if you must, but never dump beer unless it is infected.
:dunno:
Last edited by Beer O'Clock on 16 May 2011, 19:17, edited 5 times in total.
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