Best way to utilise a 27 litre electric urn for a 20 litre b

Post #1 made 10 years ago
Hi all,

I decided against getting a big metal pot for the stove as we rent and our electric hob is not really up to the job. For budget and space the 1 pot approach was the only choice and I opted for an electric tea urn. I know its not an ideal volume but I got a Klarstein Biggie 27L. I am English living in Denmark and it was cheaper getting it from Germany. Very european. You can control the temp between 30 and 100°C. The element is hidden so should be perfect for BIAB.

http://www.amazon.de/Klarstein-Einkocha ... B00Q74DWI0

I figured I could keep topping it up with water during the mash process and the heat control could prevent boil over. Just ordered all my grain. Still need an immersion cooler and my BIAB bag. For the bag I was planning on making my own from net curtains. Has anyone tried this? Is the mesh fine enough - 1-2 mm wide square holes.

My aim is a 20L batch, how would you manage the brew? My thoughts are: heat 20L to desired temp take a 90 min incubation with the grain. Drain the water top up with fresh. Heat up to 70 and drain. When it hits the temp. Remove grain add back liquid and mash out. Some of the details and decisions will no doubt be made up on the day. This will be my first all grain attempt.

Maybe someone has a better strategy for me? Is there any pitfalls I should definitely avoid? Thanks for your help. Still awaiting delivery.

Hammoco

http://WWW.yeastyeastyeast.blogspot.dk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by hammoco on 08 Mar 2015, 01:02, edited 1 time in total.

Post #2 made 10 years ago
Hammoco, here is a poorly Checked Recipe
Image
for 27L kettle and 20L Volume into the Fermenter VIF

Check section 'W' for water added during the Boil.
Last edited by joshua on 08 Mar 2015, 03:09, edited 1 time in total.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #3 made 10 years ago
Cheers Josh, I have been reading about the Biabacus but didn't manage to track it down. The calculations you made there make me think this is gonna be easier than my post made it sound.

Post #5 made 10 years ago
Welcome to the forum hammoco :peace:,

When your kettle is too small to handle pure BIAB (full volume breweing) you need to become aware of how the 'Full Volume Variations' affect your brew. A read through the following posts... #62, #63 and #71 will explain this.

If you use the BIABacus (we can help you with it) you will know in advance, where and how much water you will be able to add. The one Josh supplied above is a good example.

Above you mentioned that you have already bought your grain. That means we'll have to do a bit of fiddling as you should really only order your grain and hops once you have finalised your recipe plan. For example, in Josh's file above, you would be ordering in 5,100 grams of malt. Existing brewing software (besides the BIABacus) is actually quite primitive and will lead you to think that no matter how you treat it, x amount of grain will give you y amount of beer which is incorrect. Anyway, we can work around whatever quantity of malt you have already ordered.

Curtain material with 1 to 2 mm squares is much too coarse. You need a lot finer than that. In fact, you need about 30 to 40 threads per cm something like as pictured here.

Also, you don't want to be draining your urn, you want to be pulling the bag. I think you know this but just wanted to double-check ;).

Get back to us once you have read the links above with...

What types and weights of malts and hops yo have ordered, the internal height of your urn and the diameter of it and we can work from there.

:salute:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 08 Mar 2015, 20:10, edited 1 time in total.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia

Best way to utilise a 27 litre electric urn for a 20 litre b

Post #6 made 10 years ago
Thanks for the advice. I am reading through the posts. Still waiting on the grain which gives me a bit of time to get my bag fixed up. Also need to get an immersion cooler but my homebrew expenditure is getting silly. In other news the tea urn arrived today. Measuring in at 35cm internal diameter and 30cm to the brim. I have 30 cm high hopes for this system.
Image
Image
Image
Image

Homebrew without the rulebook. http://www.yeastyeastyeast.blogspot.dk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by hammoco on 10 Mar 2015, 04:10, edited 1 time in total.

Best way to utilise a 27 litre electric urn for a 20 litre b

Post #7 made 10 years ago
This is what I have on order.

Grain:

Chateau Pale Ale 7 EBC, 19 kg.
Chateau Abbey 45 EBC, 4.5 kg
Chateau Biscuit 50 EBC, 1 kg.
CHÂTEAU PEATED 3,5-5 EBC, 1 kg.
Chateau Vienna 5-7 EBC, 1 kg.
Chateau Cara Crystal 150 EBC, 1 kg.
Chateau Cara Ruby 50 EBC, 1 kg.
Chateau Arome 100 EBC, 1kg

Hops:
Chinook 100 gr.
Citra 100 gr.
Willamette 100 gr.
East Kent Goldings 100 gr.
Northern brewer 100 gr.

Yeast:
Danstar Belle Saison Gær 11 gr.
Mangrove Jack's Burton Union
ølgær SAFALE S-04 11.5 gr


Protaflock tabletter 10x

All bought online from a Danish website. I am planning at least 3 batches based on some recipes from "homebrew beer - greg hughes" book. 1x Abbey beer, 1 x smoked beer and 1x Scottish 80 shilling. They will need to be scaled and adapted to the available danish ingedients.

You are going to tell me I bought too much grain but delivery costs and grinding costs mean it just doesnt make sense for me to buy smaller quantities. I need to find a way of storing the grain upon arrival.


Homebrew without the rulebook. www.yeastyeastyeast.blogspot.dk

Post #8 made 10 years ago
hammoco, this is a lot better than I thought! I thought you had already ordered the ingredients to brew just a single batch of beer. That is perfectly sensible ordering. As the grain is arriving pre-crushed, I would want to see you storing it in air-tight containers (tupperware?). I know this will be expensive but if you have to store pre-crushed grain for long periods, it will be worth investigating that option or vacuum packing.

Three more questions before we get into the details...

1. What recipe do you want to do first? (Can you also do a search and see if we have dealt with any of Greg Hughes recipes yet? If not, we are for your first recipe at least, going to need as much information as you can provide on that recipe - volumes, malt types/weights/percentages, IBU's, colour etc. It's like baking a cake I suppose. The less specific the information, the less likely it is we will be able to duplicate the cake.)

2. What are the Alpha Acid Percentages of the hops you have ordered? You might have to contact the retailer to determine this. Also ask for the harvest year if you can get it.

3. Did you order enough yeast? On a quick review, I would like to see you with 6 sachets of dried yeast.

:peace:
PP
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia

Post #10 made 10 years ago
The hops I ordered:
Chinook - Alpha acids 10-14%
Citra - Alpha acids 11-13%
Willamette - Alpha acids 4- 5%
East Kent Golding's - Alpha acids 4.5-6.5%
Northern brewer - Alpha acids 8.5-10%

(Firstly sorry for sharing the recipe Greg Hughes. Its a great book, you should buy it people. ) I believe there have been some adaptations of his recipes on BIABrewer but I am composing this on my mobile which makes refering back and forth and multitasking a bit tricky.

The recipe I will go for first:

Smoked beer.

Bitterness 30.2 IBU
Colour 23.6 EBC
Makes 23 Litres - I assume this is volume of ambient wort (VAW)
Original Gravity (OG) 1.051
Final Gravity (FG) 1.012

Mash:
Volume into Mash (VOM) 12.7 litres
Pale malt 4kg
Smoked malt 700g
Crystal malt 300g
Carafa special II 70g

65 °C 1 hour mash

Sparge grain - total volume now 27 litres (VIB)

Boil 27 L (VIB) 1hr10mins

Chinook 18g 25.9 IBU at start of boil.
Willamette 18g 4.3 IBU last 15 mins
Another 18g Willamette at turn off. IBU 0.

Protoflock 1 tsp last 15 min. Is 1 tablet going to be equivalent?

Wyeast 1056 American Ale

Total water needed 32 litres (TWN)

Firstly, as you will see from my shopping list I don't have the Carafa special II malt so need to substitute that. Any recommendations? Apparently that should have an EBC of 800-1500. I didn't buy anything that dark (oversight).

Also not quite sure whether the hop weights should be adjusted. Sorry couldn't find the year they were produced. Not arrived yet.

It doesn't have to be an exact clone but just a tastey effort. Any recommendations for how I should adapt this recipe? I would be interested to hear if anyone has ever tried a smoked or peated beer? I haven't, but I like a peated whiskey.

I will make a yeast starter culture to get my yeast growing before I start the brewday.
Last edited by hammoco on 11 Mar 2015, 20:56, edited 1 time in total.

Post #11 made 10 years ago
I am not sure this will help, But, this link

http://www.brew.is/files/malt.html

Shows a Carafa Special II substitute is Chocolate malt.

Another thing, unless you have a bottle of the "Real" beer, how can you tell if it a good Clone, and not just Good Beer????
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #12 made 10 years ago
I think Greg and many other authors can send me an apology and say thanks for the amount of time it takes myself and others to make sense of their recipes, if we even can. Before even starting to write this post, I have spent 40 minutes on investigating the recipe.

I'm sure these authors write good recipes and they work for them on their equipment and on whatever dodgy software they use, but it would be really nice if they went that one step further and really understood the basics of recipe publication. Existing crappy software is responsible for a lot of this nonsense.

Where this Recipe Lacks Integrity

Like most recipes in books, on the net or in magazines, critical information is missing. Here is what is missing in this recipe...

1. Poor Malt Terminology - Pale Malt can vary greatly in it's flavour and colour. Not a big deal but the pale malt should be described better. More importantly, crystal (or caramel) malt covers a massive spectrum. The term. 'crystal malt', without any further definition is meaningless.

If the author provided colour values of each gain, this would help us tremendously in interpreting the recipe. Did he?

2. Poor Volume Terminology - It's nice to see the Volume into Boil figure but, like almost every recipe, the volume at flame-out, once cooled (Volume of Ambient Wort - VAW) is not described. I think your guess of 23 litres is the best guess we can assume hammoco but another author saying, "makes 23 litres," might mean 'Volume into Fermentor (VIF)' or 'Volume into Packaging (VIP).'

3. Poor Hop Info - A high integrity recipe needs to advise the reader of the AA% of the hops that were used. The same hop, even grown in the same year, can vary wildly in its potency. Imagine your hops are like chillis. If a recipe says add three chillis, how reliable is that recipe? If it says, add three really hot chillis, then that is going to be a bit more informative.

The calculated IBU's of 30.2 might be useful but only if we knew what software was used to calculate that number and what formula that software used. In other words, we really can't do much with that number.

....

Half a tablet of Whirfloc at 5 minutes before flame-out will be the way to go. I have typed this into the file below.

Without Further Info, Here is What I Would Do...

During the 40 minutes I mentioned above, one of the things I did was to type in what info was available into a BIABacus file. I've written about all the dodgy stuff above. After you have read that, here is the important stuff...

1. See if you can gather more information on any of the above.
2. Note my changes to mash and boil times in Sections B and E.
3. I don't know what you mean by in your title by "a 20 litre b" :P. I'm assuming you meant to write batch but, even if you did, it does not tell me if you mean VAW, VIF or VIP. In section B, you will see that I have guessed you meant VIF.
4. The Full Volume Variations I have made in Section W mean that you will have to use about 20% more grain (about a kilo). On this brew, you could reduce the extra grain cost by about 700 grams. if you actively sparged it. This would mean a lot more work and a compromise on quality. The links on "Sweet Liquor Shop" I gave above should help you work out what is best for you.

Save the following file under two different names and play around with the second file's Section W.
BIABacus PR1.3T - Greg Hughes - Smoked Beer - Batch 0.xls
Please Pay BIABrewer.info Back in Some Way

I am going to have to start adding something like this to all the posts that take considerable time. The above post alone has taken 95 mins, let alone anything I have written previously in this thread or today in other threads. I have another hour of things to deal with before I can even work on long-term site improvements. And, all this is after a ten hour work day!

I love being able to give careful and considered attention to questions here but it does come at a great cost to everyone, not just me. For every question I intently focus on here, each minute spent is lost on focusing carefully on finalising the first main release of the BIABacus, a new site structure and so many other things.

The site requires energy to run. Here are some easy ways you can help run it...

1. Please study any carefully written answers you receive here. (You've done a nice job on that above hammoco :peace:).
2. Please welcome new members to the forum in the My First Post thread.
3. Please become a Donor or an Enthusiast. It's a bit hard to see, but just click on the space just above the Forum Search at the top right of every page or click here.
4. Please encourage others on their brewing journey. For example, any registered member could comment on this post.

Energy-wise, far more important than any of the above is handing on knowledge that you receive here. Answering questions well takes time but also helps you clarify what you still need to know or what no one knows as yet! Atm, on this site, if you provide an answer, if anything is obviously wrong, someone would hopefully send you a PM or, if you are not confident, send me a PM and I would be happy to check your answer over.

...

Now, I am out of energy!
PP
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 11 Mar 2015, 20:51, edited 1 time in total.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia

Post #13 made 10 years ago
I guess as a beginner I look at a recipe and say does that sound good to drink? But I am not experienced enough to guage the quality and potential pitfalls of the recipe. You need to give people a bit more time as it is difficult to take everything in and also we are more than likely in completely different timezones on completely different schedules. I was actually working on translating all the info I have provided above into the BIABacus when you posted. That said I thank you for the effort.

I will not be the first to try using this type of tea urn for brewing with but it is definately on the small side for BIAB compared to most setups. I was desperately trying to find some advice on "the way to go" before purchasing it. No such luck, hence I engaged in this forum. Therefore I hope this post will engage other readers and encourage them that a low footprint cheap alternative is out there no matter what your stove looks like. As such this will obviously help others in the future (call it a part payment). I hope I can also help in the forum to add further value. You may even get a donation, because it is a valuable resource - when I recover from other brewing expenditure.

The BIABacus is really good. It took me a while to realise that the numbers I was adding in section W were the main factors affecting my brewing volumes calculation in section K. To improve my efficiency I am thinking of doing a whilst boiling sparge. I plan boiling more water than I need to start with e.g. 26 L to 100oC then saving half of that strike water as sparge water in my fermentation bucket. I will then top up the strike water with cold water and equilibrate to mash temperature. Performing the mash for 1 hour. If the sparge water is too hot I will cool it with an immersion cooler.

Post mash and during the boil I will add my bag of grain to the sparge water and then use the sparge water to top up my levels during the boil. I will let you know how it goes. Thus, in the attached recipe, water added before and during the boil will be from the pseudo-sparge water and should increase my efficiency.

Thanks for the help :)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Post #14 made 10 years ago
I've left this thread for over three days now hammoco because you said I needed, "to give people a bit more time." No idea what you meant but...

I have read and re-read your last post several times since then, thinking I have missed something either as an experienced brewer or just as a generally polite person :scratch:.

I thought that a polite, experienced brewer such as myself spending several, very careful, hours on your thread alone and giving you very detailed advice would warrant a little more thanks than the above comment and the, "You may even get a donation..."
For me, and any member here that spends time on you, it is not about money, it is about respect and interest.
As if a five dollar donation could even cover the several hours I spent above on you. And as if you couldn't save a heap of money by reading or asking just a single question here :roll:.

But then I thought...

"Maybe this new brewer is just absorbing and digesting what I spent several hours writing and thinking on above?"

You haven't though. You have written a long reply, three days ago. I read it many times because I thought I must have missed something.

It is way obvious that you have not studied, let alone responded carefully to anything I have written above so...

Unless something changes dramatically, I am out on this thread from now. Anyone that needs advice on Greg Hughes recipes can follow this thread.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 15 Mar 2015, 18:59, edited 1 time in total.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia

Post #16 made 10 years ago
Unfortunate, but I feel that PP was properly responding to what was specifically asked.

"Best way to utilise a 27 litre electric urn for a 20 litre boiler".

"best way" requires quite a bit of analysis, and ensuing response(s) with a high level of articulation to your contextual brewing situation. The recipe ingredients have a direct effect on your methods, and this needs consideration. It cannot be ignored. You received exactly what you asked for. Unfortunately, I don't think you actually wanted the "best way" ... but more of some help attaining an undefined preconceived notion of drinkable beer. Only you can answer that.

MAXI-BIAB and use of a boiler is not uncommon here, at all. Many people here can help set you on a great path if time and consideration is reciprocated.

Flat out ignoring when crucial red flags are pointed out isn't really a great strategy to achieve a "best way" for anything. This recipe and ingredients will need altering based on the brewing method you are using. PP simply can't ignore that fact, and took the time to help educate you what could result since ingredients were already purchased. This way, you know exactly what to expect in the end ... and next time planning will go a bit smoother for you.

As soon as you ordered those ingredients, the "best way" had escaped you. PP was going to give you a strategy to make the best out of a hasty purchase. Let us know how the brew goes for you, and we'll be right here to continue the discussion if you wish.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 20 Brews From United States of America
Post Reply

Return to “Electric BIAB”

Brewers Online

Brewers browsing this forum: No members and 18 guests