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q's about my first BIAB brew session

Post #1 made 15 years ago
by kristfin
hi all,

i'm planning my first BIAB brew tonight or tomorrow. i've brewed over 30 batches of all grain and several extract ones so i'm not stranger to brewing.

that said, after having looked at the calculator supplied here, i have some questions.

here is the recipe, equipment and method aside.

Code: Select all

Pilsner 93,00 %       
Carapils 4,00 %        
Caramunich II 2,00 %        
Caraaroma 1,00 %        
Northern Brewer Pellets [8,50 %]  (60 min) 33,5 IBU      
Goldings, US [5,00 %]  (20 min) 3,3 IBU       
Goldings, US [5,00 %]  (5 min)  1,6 IBU
my equipment is a 50 liter pot, 37 cm diameter, 5500W ultra low density element and pid controller.

when i punched in 37 cm diameter, 1,050 OG, 25 liter brew length into the calculator, it tells me:

Code: Select all

A. MEASUREMENT	
Brew Length	25,00
Fermenter Trub*	2,00
Volume into Fermenter	27,00
Kettle Trub & Buffer*	4,50
End of Boil Efficiency*	79,00
End of Boil Gravity (OG)	1,050
End of Boil Volume (Batch Size)	31,50
Boil Length	90
Diameter of Kettle	37,00
Evaporation Per Hour*	4,60
Evaporation for this Brew	6,90
Expected Start of Boil Gravity	1,041
Start of Boil Volume	38,40
Grain Bill Required	6494
Grain Absorption*	4,08
Water Required is...	42,48
Approximate Mash Volume	46,77
i have been using beersmith for all my recipes and would like to continue doing so. however, i would have to lower my brewhouse efficiency down to 66%, instead of the regular 75% i have maintained, in order to get the same amount of grains as the calculator spreadsheet suggests. does that sound about right?
looking at the beersmith numbers
brewsmith.jpg
it seems like beersmith would call it 66% efficiency what the calculator spreadsheet would call 79%.

here is the beersmith recipe, given 66% brewhouse efficiency,

Code: Select all

Style: American Pale Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35,0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 27,00 L      
Boil Size: 40,18 L
Estimated OG: 1,050 SG
Estimated Color: 7,0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 38,4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 66,00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount        Item                                      Type         % or IBU      
6,05 kg       Pilsner (Weyermann) (1,7 SRM)             Grain        93,00 %       
0,26 kg       Carapils/Carafoam (Weyermann) (2,0 SRM)   Grain        4,00 %        
0,13 kg       Caramunich II (Weyermann) (63,0 SRM)      Grain        2,00 %        
0,07 kg       Caraaroma (Weyermann) (178,0 SRM)         Grain        1,00 %        
35,56 gm      Northern Brewer Pellets [8,50 %]  (60 min)Hops         33,5 IBU      
17,78 gm      Goldings, US [5,00 %]  (20 min)           Hops         3,3 IBU       
17,78 gm      Goldings, US [5,00 %]  (5 min)            Hops         1,6 IBU       
1,49 items    Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15,0 min)          Misc                       
2 Pkgs        American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056)          Yeast-Ale                  
2 Pkgs        English Ale (White Labs #WLP002)          Yeast-Ale                  


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out 68
Total Grain Weight: 6,50 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out 68
Step Time     Name               Description                         Step Temp     
60 min        Mash In            Add 45,30 L of water at 71,2 C      67,8 C        


Notes:
------
Starting Water (ppm):			
Ca:	4,65		
Mg:	0,9		
Na:	8,9		
Cl:	9		
SO4:	2		
HCO3:	20		
			
Mash / Sparge Vol (gal):	18,48	/	0
RO or distilled %:	0%	/	0%
			
Total Grain (lb):	14,326		
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain:	0,9918		
Roasted Grain:	0		
Beer Color (SRM):	7		
			
Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:			
CaSO4:	32	/	0
CaCl2:	0	/	0
MgSO4:	12	/	0
NaHCO3:	0	/	0
NaCl:	0	/	0
CaCO3:	0	/	0
Lactic Acid (ml):	3		
Sauermalz (oz):	0		
			
Mash Water / Total water (ppm):			
Ca:	109	/	109
Mg:	17	/	17
Na:	9	/	9
Cl:	9	/	9
SO4:	324	/	324
Cl to SO4 Ratio:	0,03	/	0,03
			
Alkalinity (CaCO3):	-34		
RA:	-121		
Estimated pH:	5,21
any thoughs?
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Last edited by kristfin on 03 Nov 2010, 21:23, edited 5 times in total.

Post #2 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
Welcome to BIABrewer kristfin,

Great to see another traditional brewer having a crack at BIAB - I can't think of any of us here who have ever turned back ;).

There is no need to increase your grain bill, if anything the opposite...

The problem you are getting in your calcs is a terminology and, "software set-up," one. The batch size you have been using in Beersmith is not the same as the one referred to in The Calculator.

If you have time, go to Sheet 3 of The Calculator and copy some figures over. You'll find that the 66% refers to your efficiency into the fermenter not your pre or post-boil efficiency. (In the pic you posted there is an efficiency into the boiler of 76.97% - if anything you should raise this a little to say 80%.)

So, Beersmith is really calling it 76.97% while The Calculator is calling it 79%. Same thing!

Funny that you ask this question tonight as I have just spent a few hours writing on how confusing home-brewing definitions and terminolgy are - lol! Have a read here for some more reading and links and if it still doesn't make sense then let us know.

Recipe conversions are often a bit boggling :think:

Let us know how you find your first BIAB. All the best,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 04 Nov 2010, 00:01, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #3 made 15 years ago
by kristfin
thanks,

my question was not a very structured one, i give u :)

the efficiency dialog, actually displays 3 (in some sense different( calculations.

what matters for me is that in my regular all grain brewing with 75% brew house efficiency i would use 5,7kg of grain to get 27 liters into the fermenter.

the calculator using 79% efficiency (which is not comparable) tells me to use 6,5kg to achieve the same result.

if I pull the beersmith brew house efficiency down to 66% (from 75%) i get the same amount of grain in both

if i bump the calculator efficiency up to 90% i get the same amount of grain in both.

Post #4 made 15 years ago
by kristfin
i'm going to brew it like beersmith tells me to do it. i'll just adjust if the result is different.
i have a refractometer so i can adjust the hopping if i'm off OG wise.
i'll keep you posted

Post #5 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
kf, you have done a heap of AG brews, so forget The Calculator and just use what you are used to. i.e. use exactly the same weights and volumes as you have done for these past 30 brews - just add the mash and sparge volumes together and throw all this into the kettle. This formula has worked in the past very well and so should work very well for you too.

Hopefully you have brewed the above recipe a few times before and have recorded a few figures. If you trust these figures, then they will certainly get you in the ball-park with BIAB. If you have been a twin-sparge batch-sparge brewer then the results you get from BIAB should work out 4 - 5% higher (over several brews) which is nothing worth worrying about.

:luck:
PP
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Post #7 made 15 years ago
by kristfin
i finally had my first full BIAB session tonight.
i had problems with the chinese 25A SSR's in the first run and ended with just mashing it in the new BIAB pot and using my old one to boil.

the pot is a 50 liter ss one, with a 5.5kw heating element. i welded a 1" whaddyacallit to the pot and screwed the element in. also i added 1/2" for the tap and a 3/8" for the k-tc probe which i just push into a copper pipe that i screw into the pot.
i also have another 85 liter pot that i can use for larger batches.
i insulated the pot with a thermo mat i got 25 years ago.
Image
the first beer i brewed was an ordinary bitter. when i formulated the recipe in beersmith, i lowered the brewhouse efficiency to 70% from my usual 75% i use when batch sparging. the only thing i did different in beersmith, is that i put all the water beersmith told me to prepare in the infusion mash - like some instructions on the beersmith web side had suggested.

i had 4kg of grain that i crushed and stirred into 32 liters of water in the bag in the pot.
added my calculated amount of gypsum, calcium cloride and epsom salt, which should give me pH 5.33 and let it rest.
after 70 minutes i lifted the bag, raised the temp to 76, lowered the bag and let it sit for 10 minutes, then headed for the boil. after 70 minutes i lost less than 1°C in temp so the insulation works.

my preboil gravity was 1036 instead of my expected 1034.

the OG after 60 min was 1040 instead of 1038, but i got 25 liters instead of 23 i had planned so it should be easy to adjust my numbers after this.

looking good!
Image
the controllers are housed in a computer box. i use fans to cool down the SSR's.
the controller on the left controls the heating element in the pot, but the left one maintains the temperature in the fermentation controller. the fermentation temperature is maintained with a 1kw heating element and solenoid valve that controls the flow of the cold water. my cold water is 9°C so controlling is very easy.
Image
one happy BIAB beer, fermenting away at 20°C
Image
Last edited by kristfin on 25 Nov 2010, 09:23, edited 5 times in total.

Post #9 made 15 years ago
by kristfin
yes, i was very happy with the performance. my brew day was less than 4 hours, grain to fermenter. usually it took me 7 hours with my old system.

next step is to try out the 85 liter pot. p :thumbs:

Post #10 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
Thanks for letting us know how it all went kristfin. It looks like things went really well. I'm not absolutely sure how your efficiency went but I think I am reading that you found it close/equivalent to what you are used to getting so that should make future calculations easier.

It's always great to hear how plans work out. I especially love posts from experienced traditional brewers like yourself. There are not many traditional brewers who are willing to have a crack at BIAB and I don't blame them. Why try a different system when you have spent 6 months / a year/ ten years understanding or perfecting your existing system? I would have never explored it if I hadn't been living in an apartment. Now, even if I had a mansion, I wouldn't brew any other way.

Make sure you let us know how you like the resulting beer.

:thumbs: kristfin,
PP
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Post #11 made 15 years ago
by kristfin
brewing efficiency is a strange beast.

since i'm just brewing for myself, i don't bother that much with it.

had i been brewing this beer with my old system, i would have gotten 75% brewhouse efficiency (according to beersmith) and 23 liters of 1038 beer to fermenter.

in this first BIAB i got 25 liters (instead of 23) of 1040 beer to the fermenter.
so as i am used to calculating, i say that BIAB gives me 80% efficiency.

the main difference, using beersmith, is that most likely i'm getting more liquid out of the grain, when i drain the bag, versus sparging, because i had at least 2 liters more left in the grain, in my old ways of doing things.

but I'm very happy with this. specially the part that i'm down to 4 hours from 7. the time saving is at least 1 hour BIAB, but the new and powerfull boiler shaves 2 hours off the brewing time.

Post #12 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
kristfin wrote:brewing efficiency is a strange beast.
LOL! It is very poorly written about.

The 80% efficency is what you should expect from BIAB. This refers to mash efficiency or pre-boil efficiency and post-boil efficiency. Depending on the way you set BeerSmith up, it will agree with The Calculator. (Batch size is the usual confusing bit of terminology as you have probably now gathered ;)).

So, I reckon you must have done everything right :salute: kristfin.

Looking forward to your next posts,
PP

P.S. You will get more liquid out of the grain and it will be of the equivalent gravity as batch-sparging for reasons written here.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 26 Nov 2010, 01:01, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #14 made 15 years ago
by kristfin
i heated up 32 liters.
i'm not sure about the time it took, since i just set the controller to 72°C and prepared dinner.
i guess it took some 20-30 minutes from 8°C.
then i stirred the grain in and closed the lid for 5 minutes, to heat it up.
stirred more until the temp was 67°C and then gave it 70 minutes.

the heating element is 5.5kw and the boiler is pretty well insulated. at least compared to my old boiler it is much faster. most of my time, earlier, was spent waiting for it to boil.
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