LOL 2XC! Do I detect a bit of passion on this subject?

A great and very interesting post though 2XC.

Like you, I never had the opportunity to have a rope and pulley for my first three or four years of BIABing. Pulling the bag wasn't hard but I am no longer sure whether this might be true for all BIAB brewers - see my thoughts below. Like you, I also did several double batches (call them 46 L into the fermenter) and never found pulling the bag hard.

From memory, though I haven't read it in a long time, I don't think 'The Commentary' here denigrates the 'pulling the bag by hand' method at all. So hopefully this site is giving the right advice?

Here's a few of my thoughts...

1. Bag Porosity: Some bags are easier to pull than others but might be worth the extra effort - like some old girlfriends of mine . My first bag was very easy to pull. LloydieP has it now and I should have a look at that bag compared to what I use now with a magnifying glass. I am serious here because they look the same but I suspect there might be a noticeable difference under magnification. I know BIABrewer.info wants to sell bags and one major reason for this is so as we BIABer's can experience some uniformity. The sooner they do, the better.

A finer bag will be harder to pull but produce less trub. To what extent, at the moment, we really don't know.

2. Being Practical: A big focus for new all-grainers is on efficiency and this focus is a real problem. I can increase my end of boil efficiency a few percent by hanging and squeezing my bag for the entire boil. Traditional brewers can employ similiar tricks. This is not good practice though. At some stage, an experienced brewer will have a cut-off point. This psychologically and practically allows the brewer to focus on far more important things than an extra percent of efficiency. My cut-off point is the start of the boil. I do not wrench my bag to squeeze out every last drop. I just give it a twist/squeeze to stop the bastard dripping as mush as possible.

3. Convenience: I suspect my new bags are finer than my original one - they seem harder to pull. I also now almost always do two double-batches side by side as I have two set-ups. Furthermore, I also now am in a place where I have been able to install a skyhook to hang a pulley from. Having a skyhook has many advantages especially if you mash out...

While raising the temperature to mash-out, you can just raise the bag meaning you don't have to constantly stir while applying heat. When mash-out is reached you totally submerse the bag again. As to whether raising the temp to mash-out makes a difference or not, my palate is not skilled enough to know. I have done plenty of brews without mashing out.

So, for me now, mostly doing double-batches, doing a mash-out and with possibly a fine porosity bag, my skyhook, rope and pulley system works very well.

I still hang the bag in a bucket once I pull it from the kettle after mash-out and this gives me more wort easily. It's the same thing I used to do before I had the rope and pulley. But, my bags have always had drawstrings and there is always a door handle handy so this is no extra effort and I would be silly not to do it.

Sorry about the long thoughts and I hope I got the context bit right

Here's my 2cents

1. What volumes you are brewing.....Standard 5 gallon batchs (uk gallon)
2. What equipment you are using......50L pot on kitchen Hob + Bag,bucket and big spoon
3. Whether a rope and pulley is possible for you.....Yes
4. Whether you mash out....Did last time
5. Methods you have tried and why you may have stopped using that method.......By hand and with a pulley

Two brews and I've used both methods, althought my pulley was a bit unusual.

The first time I brewed I just pulled the bag by hand gave it a couple of twists and after draining for a bit I dumped it into a bucket. No real drama but you have to be capable of holding something heavy aloft for a minute or two. Some set ups will be easier if your pot is lower than a kitchen worktop.

On my second brew I wanted to mashout so I rigged up a "pulley system" using a potatoe masher which I bent to hook over the extract hood and which had a hole in the handle through which I threaded my rope I tested it by pulling on it hard and it lifted the bag a treat.After mashout I let it drain for 10min and then gave it a twist to drain abit more. Again no drama. It was less messy though and I still got a bit more out whilst in the bucket.

Out of the two methods I will stick with the pulley as its easier and lets you drain straight back into the pot.

One thing I'm going to do on my next brew is attach my rope to the bag via a set of fishing scales so I can record how heavy the bag is. From this I can calculate how much water loss to grain absorption I'm having.



Yeasty

1. What volumes you are brewing. (19L 5 Gal)
2. What equipment you are using. (standard beer keg)
3. Whether a rope and pulley is possible for you. (No I brew under a garage door)
4. Whether you mash out. (Yes)
5. Methods you have tried and why you may have stopped using that method. (none tried)

I lift up the bag with my *"huge arms". I hold it as long as I can while pushing on it with a SS spoon. I put the bag in a bucket with a inverted colander to keep the bag off the bottom. After 10 min? I pour about 1/2 gallon of water on the open bag letting the water wash the sugars into the bucket below the bag. I let it drain a short time and then dump the grain into a used bucket to feed the horses. The water sugar liquid is then added to the boil. The simpler the process the simpler the solutions.

http://www.stempski.com/biab.php *"huge arms"

1. What volumes you are brewing. Generally 27 litres end of boil.
2. What equipment you are using. Keggle, where the opening diameter is less than the keggle wall diameter.
3. Whether a rope and pulley is possible for you. Yes, I brew in the shed with a pulley mounted above the keggle.
4. Whether you mash out. Yes, every brew gets a mashout @77c for 20 minutes.
5. Methods you have tried and why you may have stopped using that method. I have not tried any other methods.

I use the rope an pulley because it works for me. When I cut the top out of the keg, I didn't make it so as it had straight sides. This makes lifting by hand somewhat difficult because the bag has to squeeze through the gap. Having a rope and pulley means I can raise the bag in increments to allow sweet liquor to drain before squeezing the bag through the gap to raise it above the keggle to drain. Sometimes, once raised, I squeeze the bag for a bit of extra wort, sometimes I twist and sometimes I don't do anything other than let it drain for an hour while the wort is boiling.

I also have very puny arms that would snap if a sparrow sat on them.

Lemon wrote: 4. Whether you mash out. - No. Should I?


Lemon

It's debatable

Raising the mash to mash out is a bit like heating honey, it makes the sugars (fermentables) more viscous. Therefore allowing you to extract more sugars from the grain.
Moderator Note: A new thread on Mashout can be found here.

1. What volumes you are brewing.

40L end of boil, 10KG grainbill

2. What equipment you are using.

50L pot

3. Whether a rope and pulley is possible for you.

I made it possible

4. Whether you mash out.

I do now that I have a pulley

5. Methods you have tried and why you may have stopped using that method.

I used to brew on a burner on top of a BBQ. This worked well for single batches, but the pot was coming up to shoulder height, making pulling the bag difficult, also I think my bags porosity is quite fine. I found I slopped runnings everywhere getting the hot bag out of the pot and into the bucket... sticky deck = no fun the next day.

When I started doing double batches, I had a very very bad time trying to get the bag out... I ended up on a step-ladder, with my wife holding my hips as I tried to gain some advantage. Not good.

Also, the iron roof above the bbq meant condensation dripping back into the brew... and again, drippings runnings all over the deck... for the next brew I relocated into the carport, installed a skyhook into a beam (took about 2 minutes) and setup a temporary pulley system.

I also lowered the pot to hip height, this makes it much easier to pull the bag, and I could've pulled the 10KG weight bill by hand... but would've dripped everywhere... using the pulley makes it so simple, that I just pulled it up, let it drip for 30 minutes... by which time the bag is cool enough that you can squeeze it by hand... and then move it to a bucket with no drips.

Also, no condensation problems now, but that's another story.

I would like to setup a double pulley for some more mechanical advantage... it was still a bit of a chore raising the bag with just the one pulley... again... its the porosity of the bag.


Next Time

Double Pulley, and make sure the bag is centred over the pot!

Pull the bag up, tie down... let drip while boil starts, squeeze the bejeezus out... let drip... squeeze again... transfer to bucket... sparge, then collect runnings and be done with it.

I have to have the pot up high, so I can gravity siphon into the cubes... but I would say the two biggest factors to difficulty in pulling the bag is pot height and bag porosity, with grainbill size making a small contribution.

The unexpected bonus of using a skyhook is it means I can drip into the pot, which means no drips on the ground, which means no sticky mess to clean up.

So, I just installed a clothes line hook into the beam as high as possible, and a cleat on a nearby wall. The awning pully hooks onto the hook, and the rope has clippy thing which hooks very easily onto the tags my wife embedded into my biab bag.

I love the clippy thing

Welcome to the forum Kyle ,

I like your perforated bucket idea - very nice

One thing that worries me though is that you are pouring water through it. This means you must be heating that water in a second vessel which, with your equipment should be unnecessary and might mean you are missing out on the beauty of BIAB...

The beauty of BIAB is that the mash water (soaking water) and sparge water (rinsing water) gets added to the grain right at the start. This is what avoids using other 'hard' vessels.

There is no problem with using a second vessel but doing so, in your situation, might just be creating more work (not wort!)

Leaving your bag to drain in a perforated bucket (food-grade to boiling point) is a great idea though. Saves time and energy!

Good on you,
PP

1. What volumes you are brewing. - 5 gallons
2. What equipment you are using. - 60 quart aluminum kettle on a turkey fryer
3. Whether a rope and pulley is possible for you. - yes/no. I know a simple way I could do it at my house but have not done it
4. Whether you mash out. - yes.
5. Methods you have tried and why you may have stopped using that method - when it is time to pull the bag I pull it out with my hands. (I have some rubber oven mittens given to me as a gift that work good). I drop the bag into a plastic bucket while I bring the wort heat up to mash out temp. I used to leave the bag in the kettle but the temperatures would very widely throughout the mash even when I would constantly stir. To the point where I would have boiling water outside of the bag, and much colder temps in the bag. That problem is gone now that I remove the bag while adding heat for mash out. I put the bag back in the kettle for 10 minutes at mash out temp. When it is time to pull the bag for the final time I get an oven rack out of the oven and pullout the bag while sliding the oven rack on top of the kettle. This is easier with a helper but I have done it by myself. I than just leave the bag on the oven rack and let it drain a little and than push on it real hard with my rubber oven mitts. I twist and turn and push from all different angles until I am tired. Than I remove the bag and oven rack from the top of the kettle and start the boil.

joshua wrote: I am trying to figure out, a spring loaded flat metal plate system to attach to the bag, and apply pressure continuously.

Why not get a Cider press ? and ring the bejesus out of it

Joshua,
How about one of those mop wringers? You know, you put the mop in and push the lever. Place in on top the kettle and let it fly! Of course you have to use a new one or use it as a model for some "Rube Goldberg" rig?

joshua,
This will have to be this years project! We all have ideas and we need pictures! Have a good beer day!

BobBrews wrote:Joshua,
How about one of those mop wringers? You know, you put the mop in and push the lever. Place in on top the kettle and let it fly! Of course you have to use a new one or use it as a model for some "Rube Goldberg" rig?

I have one of those mop spinning things, http://www.thespinngo.com/howtouse.htmlyou know I reckon they would work for a final spin of a normal grain bill, with a heavy circular plate on the top. Probably need to do it in two batches. If you only used it for wort it would be perfectly sanitiz-able using sodium percarbonate, good wash down and dry in the sun, it's hot side anyway so the wort gets boiled. Those things get up to hundreds of revs per minute
SWMBO (that's her in the photo) bought mine for me recently as I'm the cleaning drone - I'll ask how much she paid.

joshua,
This is what I do. I have a empty fermentation bucket that I put a inverted colander into. I take the spent grains and place the bag into the bucket. I open the bag top and pour a quart or two of water over it. The colander holds the bag above the draining wort and the wash water that I put on the grains to rinse the sugars and cool the grain. As my wort comes to a boil I dump the collected wort/water and dump it into the keggle. I really don't squeeze the grain much (I do) because the extra water should have rinsed the remaining sugars away(?) The spent grain goes to the in-laws for their horses. The extra water means a extra 10 minutes of boiling? Brew on brother!