Only brewed with yeast once (an Oatmeal Stout). SG 1.052. FG 1.018. A rather disappointing 66%....

[EDIT: Never noticed this before but on a wide screen, this post looks like a series of single sentences. I hope all my posts don't look like that .]

Hi there lonetexan ,

Great post! I'm hoping a mod will change the topic title to something like, "Understanding Attenuation - White Labs 007." This would give your post the interest it deserves.

There are many errors in all brewing software. BeerSmith1 has some glaring ones. BeerSmith2 still has some last time I checked but, from memory, I don't think there is an attenuation error.

Never give total respect to figures you get from software. At the very best they are simply estimates.

But, because they are in program form, give us a report etc, etc, we believe them. As you brew on, there are many psychological stages you will go through. The first stage to get through, which most brewers never do, is understanding firstly how bad some software and recipe reports are.

That point is sort of relevant in this case but not quite as I think the attenuation formula you are referring to is probably okay. You would have to check it with the BIABAcus Pre-Release here to know. Let's move on to the real point though...

Let's pretend you found a program you could trust and that it had no very basic errors (I couldn't), then you need to move to another level.

The next level is to realise that no matter how good those formulas are, they can only be an estimate. Some formulas can get close (OG) and others can be woefully useless in many situations (all IBU formulas).

Some formulas are sort of okay. Attenuation is a good example of this. But, so many factors affect attenuation. Mash temp, pH, grains used and God knows how many other things.

So even if you have a sort or reasonably sound formula, you will still have problems matching it. (In my opinion, you should have problems.) But, let's go another step...

Even before we get to the stage where we even question formulas and software, there is another preliminary stage that takes a while to pass and, yet again, many brewers never move beyond it...

You cannot trust a single instrument let alone a single measurement.

If your brain is like mine*, you will fight this for several years. You will want to see your instruments and your samples matching 'the' software.

(*Maybe not? Maybe posts like this will make things easier for you than they were for me?)

I'm not criticising myself for this, what I now, see as, very primitive thinking. Why should I have not believed my instruments or software? No one told me not to trust them. The community was smaller and less experienced then and no one ever write posts like this. Does anyone now?

...

mally likes it when I 'philosophise,' so here you go mally ...

I think, in life generally, one of the best and greatest tools we have available to us is doubt. There's many examples of this but writing on any of them would belittle the importance of it and it's appropriate application.

In brewing, it's a pretty good thinking tool though. Whether you are a new or experienced brewer, there should be a lot of information you come across that doesn't add up or simply doesn't make any sense. This question of lonetexan's is a great example.

Sorry for the ramble lonetexan. Now we have the psycholgy out of the way, maybe someone else can post some good info or links on what affects attenuation. If no one posts, read some of my posts on thermometers/hydrometers etc. Unless you have three of each, you are quite possibly flying blind.


PP

PP, just my $0.023us, If a Stout is made Correctly, there must be a lot of Un-Fermentable sugars to give the Stout, it's Body.

IMHO, a Porter is made at 1.050-1.055o.g. and a Stout("Strong beer") is made at 1.065-1.070o.g.

PistolPatch wrote:[EDIT: Never noticed this before but on a wide screen, this post looks like a series of single sentences. I hope all my posts don't look like that .]

Hi there lonetexan ,

Great post! I'm hoping a mod will change the topic title to something like, "Understanding Attenuation - White Labs 007." This would give your post the interest it deserves.

There are many errors in all brewing software. BeerSmith1 has some glaring ones. BeerSmith2 still has some last time I checked but, from memory, I don't think there is an attenuation error.

Never give total respect to figures you get from software. At the very best they are simply estimates.

But, because they are in program form, give us a report etc, etc, we believe them. As you brew on, there are many psychological stages you will go through. The first stage to get through, which most brewers never do, is understanding firstly how bad some software and recipe reports are.

That point is sort of relevant in this case but not quite as I think the attenuation formula you are referring to is probably okay. You would have to check it with the BIABAcus Pre-Release here to know. Let's move on to the real point though...

Let's pretend you found a program you could trust and that it had no very basic errors (I couldn't), then you need to move to another level.

The next level is to realise that no matter how good those formulas are, they can only be an estimate. Some formulas can get close (OG) and others can be woefully useless in many situations (all IBU formulas).

Some formulas are sort of okay. Attenuation is a good example of this. But, so many factors affect attenuation. Mash temp, pH, grains used and God knows how many other things.

So even if you have a sort or reasonably sound formula, you will still have problems matching it. (In my opinion, you should have problems.) But, let's go another step...

Even before we get to the stage where we even question formulas and software, there is another preliminary stage that takes a while to pass and, yet again, many brewers never move beyond it...

You cannot trust a single instrument let alone a single measurement.

If your brain is like mine*, you will fight this for several years. You will want to see your instruments and your samples matching 'the' software.

(*Maybe not? Maybe posts like this will make things easier for you than they were for me?)

I'm not criticising myself for this, what I now, see as, very primitive thinking. Why should I have not believed my instruments or software? No one told me not to trust them. The community was smaller and less experienced then and no one ever write posts like this. Does anyone now?

...

mally likes it when I 'philosophise,' so here you go mally ...

I think, in life generally, one of the best and greatest tools we have available to us is doubt. There's many examples of this but writing on any of them would belittle the importance of it and it's appropriate application.

In brewing, it's a pretty good thinking tool though. Whether you are a new or experienced brewer, there should be a lot of information you come across that doesn't add up or simply doesn't make any sense. This question of lonetexan's is a great example.

Sorry for the ramble lonetexan. Now we have the psycholgy out of the way, maybe someone else can post some good info or links on what affects attenuation. If no one posts, read some of my posts on thermometers/hydrometers etc. Unless you have three of each, you are quite possibly flying blind.


PP

I think what PP is trying to say is..."Are you sure your hydrometer is calibrated correctly?" Does it read 1.000 when immersed in 60deg F water?

And as joshua said, you have a fair amount of unfermentables in this beer. What was styles you tried to brew with 007 previously? Maybe its just a matter of having too many unfermentables.

Finally, how are you oxygenating/aerating? I see you're making a starter so that's a good start.