This is a big topic and I need help with this one.
There is so much unproven theory in brewing and fermenting which tends to complicate and lead to a lot of unnecessary work, in my opinion. If I posted the way my mother made beer, back in the day, it would scare the living daylights out of people, and yet her beer was famous!
People seem to be moving away from two stage fermenting and moving to single stage fermentation (without racking into a carboy), as there is no advantage, and a lot more work with the former method. From what I have read about that, two stage fermentation was done based on a theory which has recently been disproved.
I thought I’d talk about single stage fermenting right in the brew kettle. It is something I’ve done for my last 15 batches and I love doing it. I single stage ferment for 10 days in kettle with a ball valve, and then keg (or bottle) from the ball valve. The ball valve has a bazooka screen on the inside which works well to keep my leaf hops out of the keg/bottles. I have some smaller stock pots that I use for test batches. These pots have glass lids so I can watch the yeast. For my big kettles with the stainless steel lids, I allow myself to lift the lid slightly, once only, the following morning to check on the yeast.
There’s very little on the net about this. There is a forum thread or two. One or two guys timidly asking if it could be done, followed by a whole lot of put downs, like “should work, but I’d never do it as it would tie up my brew kettle” (get another pot!) and “what’s the point?” One guy made himself a brew kettle with clamps on the lid to seal it and an air trap and proudly posted his pictures. He was pooh-poohed as well, but most of the commenters said you don’t need to seal the lid and you and you don’t need a trap, just let the CO2 “burp” the lid. Poor guy! he’d welded all kinds of clamps to his pot and he was so proud.
Then there was one short post, it’s the one that really pricked up my ears, and I wish I could find it. His post was completely ignored. He said he was busy but he wanted a batch of beer. He put his pot of wort on the step to cool, sprinkled dry yeast on the surface, put the lid on, and left it to ferment. He called it his “lazy beer” and he said “it turned out to be the best beer he ever made”.
The advantages for me are that, there is no fermenting bucket to clean, sterilise and fuss with. No transfer of wort to fermenter. No air trap. Lots of saved time. The brew pot, which then becomes the fermentation vessel is sterilised by the boiling (except the lid, which I heat separately in the oven to sanitize).
Does anyone have any other shortcuts that they find work? apart from going out to the pub! This brewing nonsense is driving me to drink! Well it drove me to BIAB and this site any way. BIAB in my opinion is a tremendous innovation and it saved me (temporarily) from ending up in the “nut house”.
Post #2 made 13 years ago
I wouldn't discount this method but I think the point of it tying up your pot is a valid one, A FV costs £10 my pot cost £50. I ferment for around 14 days, sometimes longer so to have a pot out of action for that long is not practical. I can manage to buy 3 FV's but 3 pots 
no way, I can buy a whole bunch of malt for £120. Another problem could be that a pot may not fit into your Fermenting fridge whereas most FV's will. And is it really a short cut ? you still have to cool and oxygenate.
The biggest short cut I think is No chilling and fermenting in the cube with S04 yeast. You'll be done in a week.
no way, I can buy a whole bunch of malt for £120. Another problem could be that a pot may not fit into your Fermenting fridge whereas most FV's will. And is it really a short cut ? you still have to cool and oxygenate. The biggest short cut I think is No chilling and fermenting in the cube with S04 yeast. You'll be done in a week.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #3 made 13 years ago
I found that if I need to speed up a hobby, I usually 'Eff' it up.
But, I also found if I want to speed up a hobby, to quicky finish it, It was not worth being a "hobby" because it was a lot like "work".
I don't really like work. Now I go for EASY. BIAB is easy.
Ohh, Once I tryed to speed up the yaest, Those little bastards went on strike, and Trashed the Entire batch.
Lesson, don't trust YEAST!!!
But, I also found if I want to speed up a hobby, to quicky finish it, It was not worth being a "hobby" because it was a lot like "work".
I don't really like work. Now I go for EASY. BIAB is easy.
Ohh, Once I tryed to speed up the yaest, Those little bastards went on strike, and Trashed the Entire batch.
Lesson, don't trust YEAST!!!
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #4 made 13 years ago
No Chill.GuingesRock wrote:Does anyone have any other shortcuts that they find work? apart from going out to the pub! This brewing nonsense is driving me to drink! Well it drove me to BIAB and this site any way. BIAB in my opinion is a tremendous innovation and it saved me (temporarily) from ending up in the “nut house”.
Last edited by thughes on 18 Jan 2013, 21:36, edited 2 times in total.
WWBBD?
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Post #5 made 13 years ago
Thanks for your comments Yeasty. Do you have any shortcuts?
Thanks Joshua
Thanks thughes. Would you write a simple introduction to No Chill.
Thanks Joshua
Thanks thughes. Would you write a simple introduction to No Chill.
Guinges
Post #6 made 13 years ago
Yea just one.GuingesRock wrote:Thanks for your comments Yeasty. Do you have any shortcuts?
If someone at a party gives you a bottle of Bud, pour it straight down the toilet and save your kidneys some work.
seriously Biab and NC is about the shortest you can get. Oh and use the house boiler for your water, I have a combi and use hot water from the tap which is about 50+ ish saves alot of time heating water.
Last edited by Yeasty on 18 Jan 2013, 21:51, edited 2 times in total.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #7 made 13 years ago
I don't see a problem at all with GR's suggestion - I love it 
.
I am going to PM a mod though to get it moved to the advanced section and suggest a different title. (I think the current title should be re-posted with a link to the new thread. Will PM you more on this GR though I'm sure you'll think it's okay.)
There's a few reasons why I think it needs to be moved to the advanced area. The main reason is that new brewers should be taught safe, proven practices. The second reason is that we experienced guys are all lazy and are in the best position to test this stuff out
.
You're not alone in your thinking here GR. A few guys here will remember many emails I sent them years ago before this forum even started about my great idea to ferment and dispense from a corny. I never did it because there was too much work and too many problems with the idea. I still have a heap of the crap here though I tinkered up for that project.
Your idea is muchbetter.
Come to think of it, I actually did do a few posts years ago on boiling and fermenting (and even dispensing) in the same vessel but I dismissed these myself as I was too rule-bound. Kept focussing on how to get rid of the trub at various stages etc etc.
I am wrapped that you have done this GR.
The Advantages
This is brewing with only two main bits of equipment, a kettle and a heat source so...
- No ferementor or fermentor and cube to clean. (How good is that?)
- Only one transfer.
- Time, labour, chemicals and water usage drastically reduced.
- Increased production due to the above.
- Risk/reward ratio reduced more than you may think (see below).
The Disadvantages
- Lots of theoretical advice that says you aren't going to win the comp (but in several styles, you might).
- Lots of theory/anectodotes/judges/people in the know that will tell you that this this practice will produce some dodgy things. I think they are probably right but...
Weighing it all up...
I really think there is a place for this. I have a fellow AG'er who lives up the street. He can't stand diacetyl. I can't stand acetyldehyde. I don't even know what diacetyl is after years of brewing. But, then again, I'll give other experienced brewers a beer I can't drink due to acetyldehyde and they love it - I have silvers from two to five years ago to prove it.
If you bear this in mind, what's the problem with trying this method on your house beer? Surely it's worth a one batch trial at least?
Side by Side
I'm out of my house beer and have two BIAB set-ups so I can do side by sides. I have a glut of cubes here waiting to be fermented but this is definitely going to be my next side by side.
If the one-vessel turns out to be within 90% of my house beer (in my opinion, no one else's), it will make a huge difference to me. Would I try it on a lager or pilsner I'm putting in a comp? Not now.
Great thread GR
,
PP
.I am going to PM a mod though to get it moved to the advanced section and suggest a different title. (I think the current title should be re-posted with a link to the new thread. Will PM you more on this GR though I'm sure you'll think it's okay.)
There's a few reasons why I think it needs to be moved to the advanced area. The main reason is that new brewers should be taught safe, proven practices. The second reason is that we experienced guys are all lazy and are in the best position to test this stuff out
.You're not alone in your thinking here GR. A few guys here will remember many emails I sent them years ago before this forum even started about my great idea to ferment and dispense from a corny. I never did it because there was too much work and too many problems with the idea. I still have a heap of the crap here though I tinkered up for that project.
Your idea is muchbetter.
Come to think of it, I actually did do a few posts years ago on boiling and fermenting (and even dispensing) in the same vessel but I dismissed these myself as I was too rule-bound. Kept focussing on how to get rid of the trub at various stages etc etc.
I am wrapped that you have done this GR
.The Advantages
This is brewing with only two main bits of equipment, a kettle and a heat source so...
- No ferementor or fermentor and cube to clean. (How good is that?)
- Only one transfer.
- Time, labour, chemicals and water usage drastically reduced.
- Increased production due to the above.
- Risk/reward ratio reduced more than you may think (see below).
The Disadvantages
- Lots of theoretical advice that says you aren't going to win the comp (but in several styles, you might).
- Lots of theory/anectodotes/judges/people in the know that will tell you that this this practice will produce some dodgy things. I think they are probably right but...
Weighing it all up...
I really think there is a place for this. I have a fellow AG'er who lives up the street. He can't stand diacetyl. I can't stand acetyldehyde. I don't even know what diacetyl is after years of brewing. But, then again, I'll give other experienced brewers a beer I can't drink due to acetyldehyde and they love it - I have silvers from two to five years ago to prove it
.If you bear this in mind, what's the problem with trying this method on your house beer? Surely it's worth a one batch trial at least?
Side by Side
I'm out of my house beer and have two BIAB set-ups so I can do side by sides. I have a glut of cubes here waiting to be fermented but this is definitely going to be my next side by side.
If the one-vessel turns out to be within 90% of my house beer (in my opinion, no one else's), it will make a huge difference to me. Would I try it on a lager or pilsner I'm putting in a comp? Not now.
Great thread GR
,PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 18 Jan 2013, 21:55, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #8 made 13 years ago
The only short cut that I regularly do is fermenting in the no-chill container. If the N/C is really full I make sure I have "Ferm Cap" in and I put some sanitized "clear wrap" over the spout securing it with a rubber band. After the really active fermentation is over I replace the cap with a extra cap I bought that I drilled out and secured a airlock into. I leave this in until I dry hop and bottle or keg.
Using the no chill container for fermentation works fine with only a bit more cleaning work to do because of the small opening. I have had no problems yet. Naturally you can't do every beer you brew this way but simple amber ales work fine. I took a first place using this method last year with a Black IPA.
Using the no chill container for fermentation works fine with only a bit more cleaning work to do because of the small opening. I have had no problems yet. Naturally you can't do every beer you brew this way but simple amber ales work fine. I took a first place using this method last year with a Black IPA.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #9 made 13 years ago
Thanks PP for getting geed up about fermenting in the brew kettle. The title was part of a trilogy of subjects that I wanted to hear from people about (kegging shortcuts, bottling shortcuts, brewing and fermenting shortcuts), but have it moved and change the title as you wish. I'm just glad someone doesn't think I'm a complete idiot. 
Bob, That's pretty interesting. Thanks Yeasty. I love this kind of stuff.
Bob, That's pretty interesting. Thanks Yeasty. I love this kind of stuff.
Guinges
Post #10 made 13 years ago
[center]OFF-TOPIC[/center]
Sorry GR, you caught me in the middle of writing some totally OT stuff to Bob. You get away with it all the time so surely I am allowed one post
. (You'll like it 
)
Sorry GR, you caught me in the middle of writing some totally OT stuff to Bob. You get away with it all the time so surely I am allowed one post
. (You'll like it )Ah! That explains an email I received last year...BobBrews wrote:I took a first place using this method last year with a Black IPA.
Dear PP,
Thank you so much for your excellent advice on brewing. Just that one email you sent me resulted in me getting a first place in my competition. I was thrilled.
I know that my first place was entirely due to you and, as a sign of my undying gratitude, I wanted to send a copy of my first place certificate with this email. Unfortunately it was stolen from me during the awards ceremony.
I should have known that following your advice religiously was a guarantee of a first place but, even so, I was absolutely amazed. I was so excited, I probably drank a bit more than I usually do. The last thing I remember is having beers with a guy who kept giving me black IPA's. The last thing I remember is holding my, or should I say, 'our,' first place certificate as I was sliding off the bar stool and screaming, "Mind this for me!"
I'm clutching at straws now, but you wouldn't by any chance know some guy called, "Bob?" He lives in North America and is pretty old and fat but don't tell him that (of course) if you do know him! I know it's a silly thing to ask but he did say, over and over again, that he was a regular guest on all the brewing shows and, seeing as you know everything, I thought this might ring a bell?
Just thinking it all over again and Bob, like you, was a great guy. I'm sure that I am being paranoid thinking he might have fed me all those black IPA's just in order to steal our certificate. In reality, he is probably anxious to return it to us but has no idea how?
Even if you and I never see that certificate again PP, I just want you to know that it's all yours.
Eternally grateful,
Edward Duringham
Last edited by PistolPatch on 18 Jan 2013, 23:42, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #11 made 13 years ago
That's hilarious!
thughes wrote:Hey Mark, welcome aboard here........Hang out, enjoy yourself...... (Watch out for Bob)
Last edited by GuingesRock on 19 Jan 2013, 00:10, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges
Post #12 made 13 years ago
That would explain the PM BB sent me, warning me about a drunk guy he met at a comp.Well you know how Bob slurs his typing,
so I didn't quite get the guys name,but Bob said he was a lying sack of guts! 
AWOL
Post #13 made 13 years ago
Well you may have got it right by saying I live in North America and you may have got it right that I am pretty old. But you... but you.... OK I am pretty fat too I guess. So you got lucky!by any chance know some guy called, "Bob?" He lives in North America and is pretty old and fat but don't tell him that (of course)
Wonderful! I just returned from a 60 mile drive. I went to my local HBSS (Home Brew Supply Shop) to take my entry for the 2013 Golden Growler competition and buy a 50 pound sack of grain. When I got to the shop I realized that my (Mia Bock) was still at my house because "I forgot to put it in my stupid car"!!!!! I guess the quote about me being "pretty old" should have said "pretty old and forgetful" The chances for me winning anything this year are ZERO at the moment!
PP, I thought I could trust you with my secrets? But I guess you trusted me in that I would actually send you your prize in Cheesestradamus! So I guess we are even and both can't be trusted?
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Last edited by BobBrews on 19 Jan 2013, 02:40, edited 2 times in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #14 made 13 years ago
Fermenting in a brew kettle moved to here: http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... 917#p26917
That stuff above is hilarious (please don't move it Nuff...Just this once!)
That stuff above is hilarious
(please don't move it Nuff...Just this once!)
Last edited by GuingesRock on 19 Jan 2013, 03:25, edited 3 times in total.
Guinges
Post #15 made 13 years ago
Back to shortcuts..........
How can you brew great beer and have time to sit down relax and enjoy it.
Consider you have a maniacal job, kids, and no time to scratch your… ummm back.
Help me out guys!
How can you brew great beer and have time to sit down relax and enjoy it.
Consider you have a maniacal job, kids, and no time to scratch your… ummm back.
Help me out guys!
Last edited by GuingesRock on 19 Jan 2013, 15:51, edited 2 times in total.
Guinges
Post #16 made 13 years ago
Mine would be considered advanced fermenting, carbing and serving vessel shortcut. I use the word shortcut because it works for me and I see advantages on how I what to do business. It's a hobby.
I pressure ferment in a corny keg. Most all is basic ale recipes. 7 days fermenting and 7 days crash chilling, it is ready to counter pressure transfer on the 14th day already fully carbed and at serving temp. ready to serve.
My photostream on Flickr shows clues on how I do this.
~richard
I pressure ferment in a corny keg. Most all is basic ale recipes. 7 days fermenting and 7 days crash chilling, it is ready to counter pressure transfer on the 14th day already fully carbed and at serving temp. ready to serve.
My photostream on Flickr shows clues on how I do this.
~richard
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Post #17 made 13 years ago
Hundreds of interesting pictures there Mad Scientist! Of all your inventions, are there some little things that save a lot of time?
Guinges
Post #18 made 13 years ago
ON-TOPIC
MS, I remember reading about your fermenting in the corny ages ago. Loved it!
GR, I like the new thread. Have posted there (sober) with a few more thoughts on the fermenting in the kettle business.
Brewing shortcuts... Will try and think of some others but, for now, weighing everything out and getting your equipment ready the night before seems to really make eveything go smoothly on brew day.
I know that's a bit underwhelming but it does make a difference to me especially when doing two double side by side batches. Used to make a difference in the early days as well when I was starting out though.
OFF-TOPIC
Bob, Edward wants his certificate back. He read the fat and forgetful bit above and wrote to me, "That's the guy for sure!"
(That's my last OT remark for this thread. I better use the nonsense thread from now on).
MS, I remember reading about your fermenting in the corny ages ago. Loved it!
GR, I like the new thread. Have posted there (sober) with a few more thoughts on the fermenting in the kettle business.
Brewing shortcuts... Will try and think of some others but, for now, weighing everything out and getting your equipment ready the night before seems to really make eveything go smoothly on brew day.
I know that's a bit underwhelming but it does make a difference to me especially when doing two double side by side batches. Used to make a difference in the early days as well when I was starting out though.
OFF-TOPIC
Bob, Edward wants his certificate back. He read the fat and forgetful bit above and wrote to me, "That's the guy for sure!"
(That's my last OT remark for this thread. I better use the nonsense thread from now on
).
Last edited by PistolPatch on 19 Jan 2013, 20:51, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #19 made 13 years ago
GR,
While there are shortcuts during your brew day, you can also turn your brew day into brew days.
Here are some things that I do that at least allow me to spread out my brew day into manageable parts.
1. Don't "worry" the process. Try not to fret about everything. Practice good sanitation, and your beer will be good.
2. At the Home Brew Store, measure and grind your grain by repice and package it into 1 or two bags so it is prepared and ready to mash. No messing about later.
3. I do my mash one day/night. (Your pot will need a good lid for this.) Tightly wrap the pot/lid junction with “Bundling Wrap” or plastic wrap. Now I feel that I can boil at my leisure, 1 or 2 days later.
4. I boil when I have time. Complete the boil, and use a hop sock. Pull the hop sock at the end of boil or when you wish, pop on the pot lid, and wrap tightly again with the bundling wrap, and no chill. trube and all.
5. When I have time to pitch, I pour into my fermenter, onto my yeast. I try to avoid adding all the trub, but it’s OK if I do.
6. I usually single ferment for 1-2 weeks, more if I can’t get to bottling. I use gelatin as finings in the fermenter. It settles and seems to solidify the trub so I can gently pour into a bottling bucket onto my bottling sugar water and bottle.
This process limits cleaning and sanitizing, and lets me brew on my schedule. Maybe I get some off flavors? I don’t know, but my house beer does not seem to change if I brew as above vs all in one day practicing trub management, quick cooling, and all the things you are “supposed “ to do while brewing.
trout
While there are shortcuts during your brew day, you can also turn your brew day into brew days.
Here are some things that I do that at least allow me to spread out my brew day into manageable parts.
1. Don't "worry" the process. Try not to fret about everything. Practice good sanitation, and your beer will be good.
2. At the Home Brew Store, measure and grind your grain by repice and package it into 1 or two bags so it is prepared and ready to mash. No messing about later.
3. I do my mash one day/night. (Your pot will need a good lid for this.) Tightly wrap the pot/lid junction with “Bundling Wrap” or plastic wrap. Now I feel that I can boil at my leisure, 1 or 2 days later.
4. I boil when I have time. Complete the boil, and use a hop sock. Pull the hop sock at the end of boil or when you wish, pop on the pot lid, and wrap tightly again with the bundling wrap, and no chill. trube and all.
5. When I have time to pitch, I pour into my fermenter, onto my yeast. I try to avoid adding all the trub, but it’s OK if I do.
6. I usually single ferment for 1-2 weeks, more if I can’t get to bottling. I use gelatin as finings in the fermenter. It settles and seems to solidify the trub so I can gently pour into a bottling bucket onto my bottling sugar water and bottle.
This process limits cleaning and sanitizing, and lets me brew on my schedule. Maybe I get some off flavors? I don’t know, but my house beer does not seem to change if I brew as above vs all in one day practicing trub management, quick cooling, and all the things you are “supposed “ to do while brewing.
trout
"All I know is that the beer is good and people clamor for it. OK, it's free and that has something to do with it."
Bobbrews
Bobbrews
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Post #20 made 13 years ago
2trout. That's really good! thanks.
I have a feeling I'm going to be coming back to that and reading it again and again. Instantly latched on to a couple of those ideas.
I hate doing what I'm "supposed to do". Bit of a bugger that way.
I have a feeling I'm going to be coming back to that and reading it again and again. Instantly latched on to a couple of those ideas.
I hate doing what I'm "supposed to do". Bit of a bugger that way.
Guinges
Post #21 made 13 years ago
GR,
I should probably ad a bit of a disclaimer to my above post.
There are LOTS of reasons why the process I described is probably a bad idea.
When I have time, I DO brew a more "safe" process, and new brewers(or smart ones) should follow the proven BIAB process.
However, I follow lazy process often because makes it possible for me to keep on brewing and allows it to be fun. I would brew infrequently if I had to put together 3-4 hours every time I had the urge to brew. So take my shortcuts with a grain of salt.
trout
I should probably ad a bit of a disclaimer to my above post.
There are LOTS of reasons why the process I described is probably a bad idea.
When I have time, I DO brew a more "safe" process, and new brewers(or smart ones) should follow the proven BIAB process.
However, I follow lazy process often because makes it possible for me to keep on brewing and allows it to be fun. I would brew infrequently if I had to put together 3-4 hours every time I had the urge to brew. So take my shortcuts with a grain of salt.
trout
Last edited by 2trout on 20 Jan 2013, 05:03, edited 2 times in total.
"All I know is that the beer is good and people clamor for it. OK, it's free and that has something to do with it."
Bobbrews
Bobbrews
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Post #22 made 13 years ago
Oh, I know 2 trout, I’d think (based on past research) and research more, and test. Or maybe I’d take a plunge and see what happens.
Great food for thought though. You’re obviously a thinker.
Great food for thought though. You’re obviously a thinker.
Guinges
Brewing and Fermenting Shortcuts
Post #23 made 13 years ago
I think this is an excellent idea and will be trying it out next time I bottle. Slightly off topic but I think it fits in here!
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/double- ... st-257264/
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/double- ... st-257264/
Post #24 made 13 years ago
I can't think of anything prophetic to say. I agree no-chill is a time saver, also fermenting in a plastic bucket and kegging (not bottling). The obvious shortcut is BIAB itself.GuingesRock wrote:Hundreds of interesting pictures there Mad Scientist! Of all your inventions, are there some little things that save a lot of time?
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 24 Jan 2013, 08:37, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #25 made 13 years ago
Aw! That’s a shame Mad Scientist.
I was left wondering by your post in this thread about the pressure fermenting in a keg that you do? How do you do it? Why so long to crash chill? Why does it speed things up?
Thanks
I was left wondering by your post in this thread about the pressure fermenting in a keg that you do? How do you do it? Why so long to crash chill? Why does it speed things up?
Thanks
Guinges
