Another idea poped into my head today. Suppose you get a 5 or 10 gal circular cooler like the ones they use to make fancy false bottom stainless steel ball valve having MLTs. Scrap the expensive stainless false bottom and get anything that will hold the BIAB bag off of the bottom creating a few CM of dead space. The bag will act like a manifold and if the bag is made right for the cooler should provide minimal channeling of wort. Then you could use the built in spigot instead of removing that and adding $$ of brass and stainless. This would alow you to vorlauf in a BIAB setup and even sparge. No expensive manifolds or false bottom, no expensive valves. I tried searching around to see if anyone else has ever tried or done this. If it works it would also make cleaning a MLT a breeze just lift the bag of grains no need to clean out the manifolds or use rice hulls. The cooler would help keep the mash temperature stable for the 90 minutes that BIABers use too.
Maybe your thumb would hurt pressing down the valve's button, but I'm sure a button hold down device could be made on the cheap.
Post #2 made 13 years ago
Great idea and I've heard of a lot of folks doing something similar, drawbacks are: you can't direct fire and there is an extra piece of equipment to clean. I prefer traditional single vessel BIAB myself because I hate cleaning. YMMV.
---Todd
---Todd
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Post #3 made 13 years ago
In leu of being able to not direct fire you get the inate abiltiy to hold temperature for longer. I wonder if that would offset the need since having to not fire at all would be easiest, at least it seems to me. As for the cleaning I would fill the MLT back up with hose water dump it out and then reuse it as a sanitizing vessle for the rest of the day since I'm already using a bucket for that.
Post #4 made 13 years ago
I've brewed both ways and found that the cooler MLT has about the same thermal mass as a 15 gallon keggle with 9 gallons of water and 15 #'s of grain int it. EG: both of them lose @ 2-3 degrees F over the course of a 90 minute mash. Advantages being I don't have to clean a cooler at the end of the day and when it comes time for mashout I can just light the burner or fire the element and raise to 170F instead of holding back water during the initial mash and then adding it to raise the grain to mashout temp. Again, YMMV.
I'm not bashing your idea, it's how I used to do my cooler MLT mash, it's just that I am older and lazier now.
--Todd
I'm not bashing your idea, it's how I used to do my cooler MLT mash, it's just that I am older and lazier now.
--Todd
WWBBD?
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Post #5 made 13 years ago
Why do you have to mash for 90 minutes?
I do 60 and got good efficiency (80%+)
Tight Crush, and occasionally stir. So what if you lose a degree?
If you lose several, heat it up a bit (stirring some more)
I dont see what the cooler offers you.
Place the bag in the kettle.
Heat your water.
Pour in the grain.
Stir
Adjust temperature.
Cover
Stir occasionally & take the temperature.
RDWHAHB
After 60 minutes raise the bag (squeeze, and save the later drippings so you can dump them in the kettle)
Start the Boil
I do 60 and got good efficiency (80%+)
Tight Crush, and occasionally stir. So what if you lose a degree?
If you lose several, heat it up a bit (stirring some more)
I dont see what the cooler offers you.
Place the bag in the kettle.
Heat your water.
Pour in the grain.
Stir
Adjust temperature.
Cover
Stir occasionally & take the temperature.
RDWHAHB
After 60 minutes raise the bag (squeeze, and save the later drippings so you can dump them in the kettle)
Start the Boil
Post #6 made 13 years ago
You can buy a water hose valve for $2-3 at home depot. remove the push button valve that came with the cooler, replace it with the water hose valve. You may need to drill out the plastic cooler a bit. Wrap the valve in teflon tape and screw it into the hole. Surprisingly enough it doesn't leak. Now you've got a cheap mash tun. But as mentioned above you now have something extra to clean. I use this for both a mash tun and I also fill it with ice water and attach to my copper coil wort chiller. Gravity flow from the cooler through the chiller to a bucket and recycle since the water exiting the chiller is STILL COOLER than my tap water in Houston in the summer.
Post #7 made 13 years ago
Hi ArclightArcLight wrote:Why do you have to mash for 90 minutes?
I do 60 and got good efficiency (80%+)
I'm not an expert but I believe that there are still sugars that gets converted in minutes 60-90. You should be able to check it yourself if you take a gravity reading at 60 minutes and then one at 90 minutes.
I start my mashout after 60 minutes and my total mash process exceeds 90 minutes. But I do believe that there are loads of people who only mash 60 minutes and get very good results - like your 80%.
lambert
Last edited by lambert on 15 Jul 2012, 07:10, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #8 made 13 years ago
This is basically the method I've started using. I've done the traditional 3 vessel, single tier method and found it to be too much work. I then switched to BIAB in one of my keggles; loved it, but found my temperatures dropped too much during my mash and didn't want to babysit the burner to maintain temps. I then made the switch to MIAB (mash in a bag) in my cooler. I pump the strike water from the kettle to the cooler for mash in, gravity drain the runnings into the kettle with the bag still in the cooler - no lifting of heavy wet grain bags, then start my boil. Cleanup is almost as easy as a normal BIAB, I just have to rinse the cooler out now (which takes literally 2 mins since all the grains are still in the bag), and the pump doesn't have to be cleaned since I'm only using it for water transfers. I don't bother with a mashout or sparge of any sort and have managed 78% extraction to kettle (on a 1.066 beer)
To me, it's a great trade-off from the traditional BIAB method which allows you to maintain mash temperatures without babysitting it, and very little extra cleanup.
My custom made cooler BIAB Stand before it's setup (takes 20 seconds to go from collapsed to set up) Everything set up
To me, it's a great trade-off from the traditional BIAB method which allows you to maintain mash temperatures without babysitting it, and very little extra cleanup.
My custom made cooler BIAB Stand before it's setup (takes 20 seconds to go from collapsed to set up) Everything set up
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Last edited by Jimmy on 05 Nov 2012, 08:22, edited 3 times in total.
Post #9 made 13 years ago
Welcome to the forum Jimmy. Great post and pics 
,
That is one very clever stand as well - nice work
. Would love to see more details on it if you get time.
kartoffel - Jimmy and the others have covered the pros and cons of MIAB well. Basically you are adding an extra vessel to avoid having to babysit the mash. Obviously, in some set-ups, you can avoid baby-sitting your BIAB by insulating the kettle. There's two other things that are important...
1. When you add an extra vessel, you add more 'height'. One of the best advantages of BIAS that we don't talk about enough is this height advantage. We don't talk about it enough because a relatively small percentage of BIAB'ers have not three-vesseled as well. It's very important to realise that any time you add another vessel, you are going to either need extra height or a pump to move the water or wort from vessel to vessel. A traditional three-vessel brewer without a pump, needs a rig twicwe as high as a BIAB'er. (HLT/MLT/Kettle/Fermentor versus Kettle/Fermentor). Don't forget that!!!!
2. The other issue is that with a baby-sat BIAB, you can easily maintain a constant and even mash temp. A traditional RIMS will do the same but is equipment-intensive (pump etc). A mash that is not, 'baby-sat,' means that you will have uneven pockets of temperature though.
Are uneven pockets of temperature bad?
I don't know. Does anyone know? Maybe an uneven mash brings out qualities that you won't get from an even, "baby-sat," mash. It could well be but maybe it's not. (Crusty, an ex $4,000 rims/herms brewer now BIABer has some views on this
.)
PP
,That is one very clever stand as well - nice work
. Would love to see more details on it if you get time.kartoffel - Jimmy and the others have covered the pros and cons of MIAB well. Basically you are adding an extra vessel to avoid having to babysit the mash. Obviously, in some set-ups, you can avoid baby-sitting your BIAB by insulating the kettle. There's two other things that are important...
1. When you add an extra vessel, you add more 'height'. One of the best advantages of BIAS that we don't talk about enough is this height advantage. We don't talk about it enough because a relatively small percentage of BIAB'ers have not three-vesseled as well. It's very important to realise that any time you add another vessel, you are going to either need extra height or a pump to move the water or wort from vessel to vessel. A traditional three-vessel brewer without a pump, needs a rig twicwe as high as a BIAB'er. (HLT/MLT/Kettle/Fermentor versus Kettle/Fermentor). Don't forget that!!!!
2. The other issue is that with a baby-sat BIAB, you can easily maintain a constant and even mash temp. A traditional RIMS will do the same but is equipment-intensive (pump etc). A mash that is not, 'baby-sat,' means that you will have uneven pockets of temperature though.
Are uneven pockets of temperature bad?
I don't know. Does anyone know? Maybe an uneven mash brings out qualities that you won't get from an even, "baby-sat," mash. It could well be but maybe it's not. (Crusty, an ex $4,000 rims/herms brewer now BIABer has some views on this
.)PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 09 Nov 2012, 21:46, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #10 made 13 years ago
Pistol, thanks for the comments.
The stand I'm using is one I found at a local hardware store: http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/produ ... 2469927148
It is available at other stores such as amazon.com, though I'm not sure if it would be available in Australia.
A sort of "added benefit" of including a second vessel in your system is the ability to do larger volume/higher gravity brews. If you are limited on batch size/gravity due to the size of your pot, you can follow a traditional batch sparge method with the MIAB and split your water volumes. All you would have to do is drain your first runnings from the cooler and into a bucket, then transfer sparge water from the kettle to the cooler and drain everything back into the kettle. It's an added step that isn't necessary unless you are looking for the higher volume or higher gravity, but it's a nice option to have if you need it.
The stand I'm using is one I found at a local hardware store: http://www.canadiantire.ca/browse/produ ... 2469927148
It is available at other stores such as amazon.com, though I'm not sure if it would be available in Australia.
A sort of "added benefit" of including a second vessel in your system is the ability to do larger volume/higher gravity brews. If you are limited on batch size/gravity due to the size of your pot, you can follow a traditional batch sparge method with the MIAB and split your water volumes. All you would have to do is drain your first runnings from the cooler and into a bucket, then transfer sparge water from the kettle to the cooler and drain everything back into the kettle. It's an added step that isn't necessary unless you are looking for the higher volume or higher gravity, but it's a nice option to have if you need it.
Post #11 made 13 years ago
Thanks for the link Jimmy. I love the way it folds up. 250 lbs (113 kg) capacity per shelf is pretty impressive as well 
.
Regarding the high gravity issue, this is a very interesting area where I suspect there is some mythology. I'll have a crack at explaining this but am not sure how I will go. It boils down to the following question...
Question: "Does sparging increases efficiency?"
For a start, we need to rephrase this question properly. A more appropriate question to ask might be any variation of the following example, "If the total amount of water I need for a brew is 33 litres, will I get better efficiency if I mash in with all 33 litres or should I mash with 15 litres and then do two sparges of 9 litres?"
My Current Answer: There is no difference.
Over Christmas, I am going to do a series of experiments on this but preliminary ones (based on 6 side by side brews and a few others) are indicating that there is no difference in efficiency.
When you think about it, there actually should be no difference. In both cases, the grain is washed in the same amount of water.
I say, "current answer," because I really want to do many more tests on this.
Why Some People Would Disagree: Some psychological & mathematical reasons.
Firstly, psychologically, we all think that rinsing makes things cleaner. We all wash our clothes right? However, in clothes washing, it is impractical to use the full volume of water at the start of the wash. The machine would have to be huge as about 100 litres are used in an average washing machine. It's natural to think that water added in stages will result in cleaner clothes however, at the end of the day, the dirt and soap is simply diluted by 100 litres. Our minds however are naturally resistant to this thought.
Secondly, there are major holes in current sparging (or partigyle) mathematical models. For example, from what I have seen, most assume that you will get the same efficiency in the mash as well as the sparge. This is not correct. A thick mash gets far lower efficiency than a thin mash as the thick mash is being washed in less water.
To put it more simply, let's say you had a brew mashed with half the total water and sparged with half the total water. Basically, the mathematical models would say that if the gravity into the boil ended up being 1.050, then the gravity of the mash would have been 1.075 and the gravity of the sparge would have been 1.025. The reality is more like 1.065 and 1.035 as the mash is far less efficient than the sparge. Increase the grain bill and things actually get less efficient.
Sorry about the very poor explanation
I know I haven't done a very good job of explaining myself above and there are a lot more problems with the mathematical models that I wouldn't go into here. I think the important things to remember are...
1. For any method of brewing, the higher the grain bill, the less efficient the brew becomes.
2. If you sparge, you must be aware that by holding back water for the sparge you are also increasing the concentration of sugars in the mash. In effect you are robbing Peter to pay Paul.
As mentioned above, I am going to do a whole series of tests on this over Christmas as this area interests me. I don't really know for sure what the results will be but I am hoping that whatever they are, a few other brewers might be able to conduct the experiment as well.
Good experiments are much more satisfying than theories
.
Hopefully at least something above makes some sense
,
PP
.Regarding the high gravity issue, this is a very interesting area where I suspect there is some mythology. I'll have a crack at explaining this but am not sure how I will go. It boils down to the following question...
Question: "Does sparging increases efficiency?"
For a start, we need to rephrase this question properly. A more appropriate question to ask might be any variation of the following example, "If the total amount of water I need for a brew is 33 litres, will I get better efficiency if I mash in with all 33 litres or should I mash with 15 litres and then do two sparges of 9 litres?"
My Current Answer: There is no difference.
Over Christmas, I am going to do a series of experiments on this but preliminary ones (based on 6 side by side brews and a few others) are indicating that there is no difference in efficiency.
When you think about it, there actually should be no difference. In both cases, the grain is washed in the same amount of water.
I say, "current answer," because I really want to do many more tests on this.
Why Some People Would Disagree: Some psychological & mathematical reasons.
Firstly, psychologically, we all think that rinsing makes things cleaner. We all wash our clothes right? However, in clothes washing, it is impractical to use the full volume of water at the start of the wash. The machine would have to be huge as about 100 litres are used in an average washing machine. It's natural to think that water added in stages will result in cleaner clothes however, at the end of the day, the dirt and soap is simply diluted by 100 litres. Our minds however are naturally resistant to this thought.
Secondly, there are major holes in current sparging (or partigyle) mathematical models. For example, from what I have seen, most assume that you will get the same efficiency in the mash as well as the sparge. This is not correct. A thick mash gets far lower efficiency than a thin mash as the thick mash is being washed in less water.
To put it more simply, let's say you had a brew mashed with half the total water and sparged with half the total water. Basically, the mathematical models would say that if the gravity into the boil ended up being 1.050, then the gravity of the mash would have been 1.075 and the gravity of the sparge would have been 1.025. The reality is more like 1.065 and 1.035 as the mash is far less efficient than the sparge. Increase the grain bill and things actually get less efficient.
Sorry about the very poor explanation
I know I haven't done a very good job of explaining myself above and there are a lot more problems with the mathematical models that I wouldn't go into here. I think the important things to remember are...
1. For any method of brewing, the higher the grain bill, the less efficient the brew becomes.
2. If you sparge, you must be aware that by holding back water for the sparge you are also increasing the concentration of sugars in the mash. In effect you are robbing Peter to pay Paul.
As mentioned above, I am going to do a whole series of tests on this over Christmas as this area interests me. I don't really know for sure what the results will be but I am hoping that whatever they are, a few other brewers might be able to conduct the experiment as well.
Good experiments are much more satisfying than theories
.Hopefully at least something above makes some sense
,PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Nov 2012, 08:26, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #12 made 13 years ago
Agreed. My opinion is that I don't think sparging makes much of a difference, if any at all. I was thinking more along the lines of the capacity of a vessel. By using the second vessel, you can split your water bill and mash at a more traditional thickness (thus taking up less room in the mashing vessel), then sparge with your remaining water. Will it extract more than a full volume mash? I doubt it. But it will let you mash that higher grain bill, or brew that larger volume batch.
Long story short, I'm sticking with no sparge - full volume MIAB (unless I need the extra room).
Long story short, I'm sticking with no sparge - full volume MIAB (unless I need the extra room).
Post #13 made 13 years ago
Here's a quick video I made during today's brew. Just a look at me draining the cooler that I use a BIAB in. I don't vorlauf, I don't lift the bag, I just leave it in the cooler and gravity drain through the valve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZp6AqanvPw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZp6AqanvPw
Post #14 made 13 years ago
A video of my MLT hybrid BIAB brew day on Sunday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyz_zT_glDM&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyz_zT_glDM&feature=plcp
Post #15 made 13 years ago
Nice video jimmy.
One question...What's the purpose of the 90deg fitting on the inside of your mash tun? To prevent the bag from clogging the outlet?
One question...What's the purpose of the 90deg fitting on the inside of your mash tun? To prevent the bag from clogging the outlet?
Post #16 made 13 years ago
Thanks.BrickBrewHaus wrote:Nice video jimmy.
One question...What's the purpose of the 90deg fitting on the inside of your mash tun? To prevent the bag from clogging the outlet?
And yes, that's why I put the 90* on there (I haven't tried it without so I don't know if it's necessary). It also helps pick up every last drop of wort
Last edited by Jimmy on 05 Dec 2012, 23:31, edited 3 times in total.
Post #17 made 13 years ago
Well I think its a nice alternative to traditional BIAB (I'm a little biased and think the traditional route is the way to go ).
I ask because my dad wants to switch from BIAB to a 3V system with a cooler mash tun. He wants to switch because of an incident we had last year where his bag was scorched and made for a huge PITA. But I'm certain he'll hate having to deal with 3V. Maybe I can convince him to give this a shot instead of buying even more equipment.
Have you come across anyone heating up the water while its in the cooler with a bucket heater? Seems like an easy way to eliminate a transfer step.
).I ask because my dad wants to switch from BIAB to a 3V system with a cooler mash tun. He wants to switch because of an incident we had last year where his bag was scorched and made for a huge PITA. But I'm certain he'll hate having to deal with 3V. Maybe I can convince him to give this a shot instead of buying even more equipment.
Have you come across anyone heating up the water while its in the cooler with a bucket heater? Seems like an easy way to eliminate a transfer step.
Post #18 made 13 years ago
Traditional BIAB is great - but in Nova Scotia it gets pretty cold and makes it hard to maintain temps. If it wasn't for that I'd still be doing the traditional method.BrickBrewHaus wrote:Well I think its a nice alternative to traditional BIAB (I'm a little biased and think the traditional route is the way to go
I ask because my dad wants to switch from BIAB to a 3V system with a cooler mash tun. He wants to switch because of an incident we had last year where his bag was scorched and made for a huge PITA. But I'm certain he'll hate having to deal with 3V. Maybe I can convince him to give this a shot instead of buying even more equipment.
Have you come across anyone heating up the water while its in the cooler with a bucket heater? Seems like an easy way to eliminate a transfer step.
As for the bucket heater; no I haven't. I'm honestly not too familiar with the bucket heater..might be a good alternative though. How long does it normally take one of these heaters to raise a 9g of water to mash temp?
Last edited by Jimmy on 05 Dec 2012, 23:48, edited 3 times in total.
Post #19 made 13 years ago
Agree completely about difficulty in maintaining temps in cold weather. I would much prefer to hit mash temps and forget about it for the duration of the mash. Not always possible though, and I think this is a nice alternative for the outside brewers in cold environments.Jimmy wrote:Traditional BIAB is great - but in Nova Scotia it gets pretty cold and makes it hard to maintain temps. If it wasn't for that I'd still be doing the traditional method.
Bucket heaters are just immersible electric heating elements. They're self contained so you can immerse, heat, then pull it out. The problem is that most are 110V and probably take a while to heat a large volume of water. I've seen someone who plugs it into a kitchen timer so that it starts a set time before his brew day begins so that everything is heated up when he's ready to begin. Might be nice to have for the instances where you come in a little low on mash temp and need a little heat.Jimmy wrote:As for the bucket heater; no I haven't. I'm honestly not too familiar with the bucket heater..might be a good alternative though. How long does it normally take one of these heaters to raise a 9g of water to mash temp?
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 06 Dec 2012, 00:47, edited 3 times in total.
