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Under efficient

Post #1 made 14 years ago
by captainl
Disclaimer: I have searched and have been drinking homeade kit wine.....

So after reading on here for a bit about over-effieiency I am starting to question my BIAB. Lately I have been getting between 60 to 70 eff. [AdminEdit: See this post below.] Which seamed all well and dandy, but I want to get a little better considering some literature on here says 75% should be easily accomplished. So thanks for some help. I have to admit that I have been striving to limit my brew days to under 5 hours (2 young kids and a reasonable wifey). But I also think I have reasonable equipment.

My setup
15 gallon stock pot
bag 2 feet by 3 feet at least
propane turkey fryer, can get 8 gallons to boil in about 20 minutes off the top of my head.

My last recipe
12 lbs 14 oz grain bill
starting with 8 gallons water full volume mash (no mash out)..I had to top off with .4 gallons or so afterward.
ended with 5 gallons at 1.059 gives me a %63 eff???
Mashed for 60 minutes, 154 cooled to 148 by end of mash, no mash out. I pull the bag out and set it on a rack that sits on the top of the kettle and it drips and I squize a litte while it heats to a boil.

I used to get better efficiency but bad beer. Turned out my tap water had a ph of 8.2. so I started diluting with RO water and adding salts. checking water profile with EZ water 3.0 and Brun'water. Now my eff sux but the beer is much better.

What do you guys think the best improvement I can make is:

90 minute mash??? A lot seam to talk about it here?
Save 2 gallons for a dunk sparge. I do have an extra 6.25 gallon pot.
Mash out?? Maybe the easiest.
Revisit my water....I'll admit I don't take ph readings during the mash.

I got 70 % with a 8lb 12 oz grain bill and 8 gallons of water.
62% with a 13.5 lbs grain bill on an IPA

Are these numbers reasonable or should I be doing better than this.

Thanks guys
Last edited by captainl on 10 Dec 2011, 12:13, edited 4 times in total.

Post #3 made 14 years ago
by thughes
"My last recipe
12 lbs 14 oz grain bill
starting with 8 gallons water full volume mash (no mash out)..I had to top off with .4 gallons or so afterward.
ended with 5 gallons at 1.059 gives me a %63 eff???"

Might just be a math error on your part......is that pre-boil or post boil gravity reading? We measure mash efficiency pre-boil. A simple calculator can be found here: http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/

Although the link says "brewhouse efficiency" it actually calculates your mash efficiency (the amount of sugar you extracted during you mash process), this is the "efficiency" number we commonly refer to.

Also, doing a mashout (raising your mash temp to 168-170F) will definitively increase your efficiency.
Last edited by thughes on 10 Dec 2011, 12:20, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #4 made 14 years ago
by captainl
Original post was post boil. Off the top of my head...Pre boil eff for what I can remember was 1.042 after it cooled. This left me with about 6.8 gallons. 90 minute boil brought me down to about 4.5 gallons @ 1.065. I then topped off until I got 1.060, just under 5 gallons.

I dump the trub and all into the fermentor so my pre boil and post boil eff should be reletively the same. No?

Post #5 made 14 years ago
by hashie
Hi Captain and welcome to the boards.

Your last question first, yes, it should be relatively the same.

Back to the OP. A mash out is the simplest way to increase your efficiency. Raise the temp to 77°c and let it rest for 10 minutes, give the grains a good stir, remove the grain bag and continue on to the boil.

A dunk sparge may help, but really only if you don't have room in your pot for a full volume mash.

Increasing your mash time to 90 minutes will also make a big difference to your efficiency.

Do you insulate your pot during the mash? maintaining a constant temperature during the mash will also make a difference.
Last edited by hashie on 10 Dec 2011, 13:11, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #6 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there captain :salute:,

It must be a day for efficiency questions :P.

An efficiency figure basically tells you how much 'sugar' you have and is based on two inputs - volume and gravity.

The first thing you need to know about efficiency is there are three types...

Efficiency into the Kettle (EIK) - Sometimes known as 'mash efficiency' and is generally regarded to give the same percentage as 'post-boil efficiency'. So we'll treat all these as the same thing.

Efficiency into Fermentor - This should always be less than the above as the gravity stays the same but the volume is less as you have left hop break and other types of trub behind in the kettle.

Efficiency into Packaging - This is lower again as the volume has been reduced by the amount of trub left behind in your fermentors and through spillage. (Whilst the gravity is lower, we still use the original gravity in this calculation as this gravity didn't disappear, it simply changed to alcohol.)

What is Brewhouse Efficiency?

This is a term that has become meaningless as different brewers and different software use it to describe any one of the above three efficiency types. Some software does explain what they mean by brewhouse efficiency but users can still use the program the wrong way.

What should I do?

Any time you post an efficiency figure you should tell people which one of the three types you are using.

The most useful efficiency figure to use when talking to other brewers is EIK. It is the only common ground amongst brewers as it is unaffected by trub losses which vary greatly from brewer to brewer.

If you give another brewer your efficiency into fermentor or efficiency into packaging (rarely done) you must also tell them what your kettle and fermentor losses were otherwise they can only guess.

Summary

So, never say, "My efficiency was 75%" or "My brewhouse efficiency was 75%." These two sentences convey no accurate information to another brewer.

Instead say something like, "My efficiency into kettle was 80%," or "My efficiency into fermentor was 70% and I lost 0.75 gallons to kettle trub." Both of these sentences provide accurate information.

Hope this helps.

:peace:
PP

P.S. Note that all three efficiency figures ('efficienies') will be higher for recipes with a low original gravity and lower for recipes with a high original gravity. See here for more info.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Dec 2011, 17:24, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #7 made 14 years ago
by stux
There is a 4th efficiency

Conversion Efficiency which is how close to the theoretical max conversion you came. Conversion Efficiency is determined by measuring the gravity of the actual mash and by knowing how much strike water you used

100% would mean you achieved the same conversion rate that the scientists in the maltsters lab achieved. Impressive!

In my tests you should be getting around 99% unless something is going wrong
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
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Post #8 made 14 years ago
by captainl
A 90 minute mash with mash out seams like a good thing to try next time.

Sorry about my efficiency confusion. :peace:

I have not been insulating my kettle during the mash. I do still have a bit of headspace so I'll try it next time, especially since its cold here now in Texas. My temps didn't seam to drop as much in the summer when it was 100+ outside. I usually fire up the burner around 30 minutes or so but I tend to overshoot the temp.

Post #9 made 14 years ago
by Lylo
Cptainl,pay close attention to how your water heats up.I found that mine fairly consistent ie 1 deg c/ 2 1/2 min. Now when I check my mash temp and want to raise 5 deg I fire up for 2 min only,give a good stir and recheck.I have found that I am generally better off being a few deg under temp than way over.(which has happened).I also learned to give a really good stir before taking any temp readings as they can be very deceiving depending on where your probe is.
AWOL

Post #10 made 14 years ago
by thughes
Lylo wrote:Cptainl,pay close attention to how your water heats up.I found that mine fairly consistent ie 1 deg c/ 2 1/2 min. Now when I check my mash temp and want to raise 5 deg I fire up for 2 min only,give a good stir and recheck.I have found that I am generally better off being a few deg under temp than way over.(which has happened).I also learned to give a really good stir before taking any temp readings as they can be very deceiving depending on where your probe is.
Agreed. With my old keggle/propane rig I would shut the flame off when my temp was 2 degrees (F) less than my target temp as I knew that the temp would continue to rise after flame out. Your system will "teach" you what you need to do if you keep detailed notes and compare brewing sessions over time.
Last edited by thughes on 11 Dec 2011, 00:14, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #11 made 14 years ago
by captainl
Thanks guys. Yeah I need to perfect the reheat technique. I guess I need to crank the heat up full blast and measure how long it take to warm up a couple of degrees. I have definitely noticed the lag from when I cut the heat to what it warms up to. I have also noticed the HUGE temp disparity between where the probe lies vs stirring and getting an even mash temp. I guess I need to rig a constant stir mash arm in there...he he he. I do have to say my friend who is a huge IPA fan thought my IPA was a hit tonight. I must be doing something right. But man would I like to do it consistently, efficiently, and well.

Cheers mates :?

Post #13 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Just been having another read here captain...

If I have read things right, your efficiency into kettle (EIK) is definitely too low.

There are 9 common reasons for this listed here. Each one of those can be critical.

In your case, I'd pay particular attention to numbers 3 and 7. Definitely buy some pH strips before your next brew.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Dec 2011, 07:00, edited 4 times in total.
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