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Poor head retention :(

Post #1 made 14 years ago
by dicko
Folks,

Not sure what has happened but my last 6 brews have had poor head retention.
Head is good on initial poor, but drops off over the space of a couple of minutes.
1cm of foam stays around the edge of the glass with nothing in the centre.

I only have 12 BIAB brews under my belt.

I cube my wort and generally pitch within a few days.

Things that have changed in my process are:
Introduction of Mash Out (Eff ave now is 84%)
Filtering beer
Mash time now 60 mins (boil remains at 90 min)

Anyone any ideas what I can do to diagnose this issue?

I know more information will be required but don't know what will be relevant!

Cheers! :headhit:
On Tap: ESB,Oatmeal Stout, APA
Primary: APA x 2
Cubed: Nowt

26/07/12

Post #2 made 14 years ago
by joshua
Good Day, I have read that a very fine filter can remove very much of the protiens that make a good foam. I had a similar problem, and stopped the filtering, and now have a good head, sometimes a great foam. But now I wait up to 4 weeks for the beer to clear before bottling. You may want to try a larger Micron filter first.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #5 made 14 years ago
by dicko
Thanks for the replies folks.
I am kegging not bottling.

I have a few beers that I didn't filter that had poor head retention.
I'm using the beer filter mk 2 from CraftBrewer.

Even tried cranking up the pressure on the reg.
Typically I store beer at 3c and serve around 80kpa.
On Tap: ESB,Oatmeal Stout, APA
Primary: APA x 2
Cubed: Nowt

26/07/12

Post #6 made 14 years ago
by thughes
Are you force carbonating? Every time I have tried that (turn up the pressure and shake the keg) I get lousy head retention. I have read somewhere that shaking is the culprit.....who knows. All I can tell you is that I "set and forget" my CO2 at serving pressure and wait a couple of weeks for the beer to carb up. This always results in a nice thick head that laces all the way down the glass and stays around to the last sip. I also add a bit of malted wheat or cara-pils (dextrine) to everything I brew.
WWBBD?
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Post #7 made 14 years ago
by dicko
Squared wrote:any difference between unfiltered (ex. wits/hefeweizen) vs. pale ales/pilsners?
The last heffeweizen I did had poor head retention too.
Which concerns me as I used 75% wheat!
Last edited by dicko on 21 Nov 2011, 04:23, edited 4 times in total.
On Tap: ESB,Oatmeal Stout, APA
Primary: APA x 2
Cubed: Nowt

26/07/12

Post #8 made 14 years ago
by dicko
thughes wrote:Are you force carbonating? Every time I have tried that (turn up the pressure and shake the keg) I get lousy head retention. I have read somewhere that shaking is the culprit.....who knows. All I can tell you is that I "set and forget" my CO2 at serving pressure and wait a couple of weeks for the beer to carb up. This always results in a nice thick head that laces all the way down the glass and stays around to the last sip. I also add a bit of malted wheat or cara-pils (dextrine) to everything I brew.
I am indeed force carbonating.
In fact the last few brews have been carbonated using keg rocking.
Forums refer to it as the Ross method.

Prior to this I was setting at 300kpa and leaving for 24 hours.

Next keg I wont rock and see if it helps!
Last edited by dicko on 21 Nov 2011, 04:28, edited 4 times in total.
On Tap: ESB,Oatmeal Stout, APA
Primary: APA x 2
Cubed: Nowt

26/07/12

Post #9 made 14 years ago
by thughes
I serve at 12 psi, 38 degrees F. Takes 10-14 days to get a full keg carbonated at those settings.Good luck and let us know what you find!
WWBBD?
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #10 made 14 years ago
by hashie
one question not asked is have you changed your cleaning habits?

Do you use a different cleaning/sanitising agent for your kegs?

Have you changed the way you clean your glasses, or the detergent/dishwasher powder/tablets?

When was the last time you flushed your beer lines and taps?
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #11 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
I force carbonate (shaking and/or rolling) and don't have any problems. I dispense at 110 kpa though. Are you seeing fine bubbles in the beer or does it look flat?

Only a couple of other things I can think of....

1. Your cleaning schedule: Are you including an acid in your cleaning? If not, your basic' cleaner will be leaving a slight film on your equipment which increases every time you clean. Apart from leading to infections, I imagine that it is possible for this to also lead to head problems.

2. Glasses: I don't think this is a glass problem from your description but the same principle applies as above. Some detergents will leave a film on your glasses.

3. Mash Length: I'd go back to 90 minutes though I have no idea if there is any scientific logic to this suggestion. Maybe your water is of a profile that is 'slower' to act on the mash and the chemistry of the mash does change over time. This suggestion is probably clutching at straws though.
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Post #12 made 14 years ago
by dicko
hashie wrote:one question not asked is have you changed your cleaning habits?

Do you use a different cleaning/sanitising agent for your kegs?

Have you changed the way you clean your glasses, or the detergent/dishwasher powder/tablets?

When was the last time you flushed your beer lines and taps?
I use PBW to clean my kegs and line.
Followed by a rinse with Starsan.

Haven't really changed the chemicals but I probably dont clean my lines as often as I used to.
Used to clean along with the keg as I had a 4 tap/4 keg kegerator.
Now I have a 4 tap/8 keg kegerator so I tend to switch to the full keg when I run out now!

I probably clean now every 2 kegs.

Do you think this would make a difference?
Last edited by dicko on 21 Nov 2011, 07:11, edited 4 times in total.
On Tap: ESB,Oatmeal Stout, APA
Primary: APA x 2
Cubed: Nowt

26/07/12

Post #13 made 14 years ago
by dicko
PistolPatch wrote:I force carbonate (shaking and/or rolling) and don't have any problems. I dispense at 110 kpa though. Are you seeing fine bubbles in the beer or does it look flat?

Only a couple of other things I can think of....

1. Your cleaning schedule: Are you including an acid in your cleaning? If not, your basic' cleaner will be leaving a slight film on your equipment which increases every time you clean. Apart from leading to infections, I imagine that it is possible for this to also lead to head problems.

2. Glasses: I don't think this is a glass problem from your description but the same principle applies as above. Some detergents will leave a film on your glasses.

3. Mash Length: I'd go back to 90 minutes though I have no idea if there is any scientific logic to this suggestion. Maybe your water is of a profile that is 'slower' to act on the mash and the chemistry of the mash does change over time. This suggestion is probably clutching at straws though.
Depends on the style sometimes it seems REALLY carbonated. Especially in the Headmaster glasses.
I use the Celli taps with variable flow control. So I keep my lines as short as possible.
Will certainly try the Mash if it helps!
I will try one thing at a time until I nail the issue.
Although I guess it may be a combination of things happening.
Last edited by dicko on 21 Nov 2011, 07:18, edited 4 times in total.
On Tap: ESB,Oatmeal Stout, APA
Primary: APA x 2
Cubed: Nowt

26/07/12

Post #14 made 14 years ago
by Lylo
PistolPatch wrote:I force carbonate (shaking and/or rolling) and don't have any problems. I dispense at 110 kpa though. Are you seeing fine bubbles in the beer or does it look flat?
PP!! :argh: 110 kpa? :o Can't you wash you car at that pressure?!
Last edited by Lylo on 21 Nov 2011, 10:39, edited 4 times in total.
AWOL

Post #17 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Better safe than sorry Lyle.

I like questions like yours. I actually went and checked my regulator. It's one of those things I don't think about much and I could have easily written psi which may have resulted in a brewer making only one post here or maybe none :argh:.

:smoke: ;)
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Post #18 made 14 years ago
by dicko
My quest continues to find out what has affected by head retention.
Based on comments this thread I am working through the suggestions!

Stripped apart the taps and lines and gave them a good soak in PBW followed by an acid rinse.
Unfortunately this hasn't helped!

I have fallen back to a 90 minute mash and boil.
I have a TTL and Schwartzy almost finished.
This will be the next test.

Being a drunken fool I know now that I have changed too many things at once... :drink:

Also introduced in this change is a converted chest freezer.

I have a probe sat in a small bottle of water at the bottom of the unit.
Temp set to 3.5c with +1c swing.
Recently based on PP's recommendation I have cranked up the pressure to 100kpa.
Not really noticed much change though.

The quest continues...
On Tap: ESB,Oatmeal Stout, APA
Primary: APA x 2
Cubed: Nowt

26/07/12

Post #19 made 14 years ago
by stux
How are you aerating your wort?
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #20 made 14 years ago
by dicko
stux wrote:How are you aerating your wort?
When I transfer from the cube to fermenter I splash the wort.
Last edited by dicko on 12 Dec 2011, 17:11, edited 4 times in total.
On Tap: ESB,Oatmeal Stout, APA
Primary: APA x 2
Cubed: Nowt

26/07/12

Post #21 made 14 years ago
by stux
dicko wrote:
stux wrote:How are you aerating your wort?
When I transfer from the cube to fermenter I splash the wort.
Right,

Just pour your wort in and try aerating with a spoon

You don't want to get a head when you pour your wort in because you use up your head forming proteins

That's a theory anyway, and I've been adhering to it since I had a similar problem

It's possible you can also aide head longevity with a specific mash schedule, but I don't know it ;)

Also, how do you carbonate?
Last edited by stux on 12 Dec 2011, 18:04, edited 4 times in total.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #22 made 14 years ago
by BrickBrewHaus
It was mentioned a couple of times, but I don't think you addressed it in this thread...How are cleaning your glassware? Detergents can leave a film that affects the head of the beer.

You can try cleaning with baking soda and salt. Mix a 10:1 mixture of baking soda to salt (salt acts as an abrasive, and the actual ratio doesn't really matter) with a small amount of water, just enough to create a thick paste. Scrub the inside of your glasses. Rinse well. It's something easy you can try and use on your other beers that had poor head retention.

Post #23 made 14 years ago
by dicko
stux wrote:
dicko wrote:
stux wrote:How are you aerating your wort?
When I transfer from the cube to fermenter I splash the wort.
Right,

Just pour your wort in and try aerating with a spoon

You don't want to get a head when you pour your wort in because you use up your head forming proteins

That's a theory anyway, and I've been adhering to it since I had a similar problem

It's possible you can also aide head longevity with a specific mash schedule, but I don't know it ;)

Also, how do you carbonate?
I had thought about the proteins when splashing and will give your suggestion a try!
There is probably a 10cm head in my 30L fermenter after pouring.

I have been using the Ross method to force carbonate recently.
Previously I had left to carbonate for 24hrs at 300kpa.
I know people use the Ross method with great success but I have to rule it out as it is something I have changed!
Last edited by dicko on 13 Dec 2011, 04:30, edited 4 times in total.
On Tap: ESB,Oatmeal Stout, APA
Primary: APA x 2
Cubed: Nowt

26/07/12

Post #24 made 14 years ago
by dicko
BrickBrewHaus wrote:It was mentioned a couple of times, but I don't think you addressed it in this thread...How are cleaning your glassware? Detergents can leave a film that affects the head of the beer.

You can try cleaning with baking soda and salt. Mix a 10:1 mixture of baking soda to salt (salt acts as an abrasive, and the actual ratio doesn't really matter) with a small amount of water, just enough to create a thick paste. Scrub the inside of your glasses. Rinse well. It's something easy you can try and use on your other beers that had poor head retention.
I generally clean my glasses by hand with a single drop of detergent.
Then I rinse thoroughly with hot water trying not to remove any skin! ;)

I like the sound of the cleaning mixture and will give it a go!
Last edited by dicko on 13 Dec 2011, 04:32, edited 4 times in total.
On Tap: ESB,Oatmeal Stout, APA
Primary: APA x 2
Cubed: Nowt

26/07/12

Post #25 made 14 years ago
by stux
Lots of possibilities :)
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12
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