Looking for advice on reusing a yeast cake.
My plan was to make a moderate pale ale with Wyeast 1056 and than pour the wort from a huge IPA directly onto the yeast cake of the pale ale.
Now that I have the pale ale fermenting I am wondering if just throwing the wort for the big IPA directly on the yeast cake is really a good idea.
Here on some stats: The Pale Ale came out to an OG of 1.058 just under the suggested maximum for one pack without a starter. The IPA will have an OG of approximately 1.133. Both batches are/will be 5 gallons.
Here are some of my concerns: Mr. Malty suggests using about 235ml of yeast slurry in the IPA and I am sure there will be much more than that. Also residual beer from the pale ale will still be left on the sides of the fermenter possibly affecting the outcome (I guess I could wipe down the sides of the bucket with a sponge soaked in starsan).
Right now I am thinking I should collect the 235ml of yeast cake some how and pitch that yeast into a already completely cleaned and sanitized fermenter. I am just having trouble thinking of the best method to do this. And finding a container I have laying around the house big enough to hold 235ml. I was thinking a pint glass at first but it will take several of those. I guess that doesn't matter too much though.
Anyway any thoughts or opinions on this would be appreciated
thanks
Post #2 made 15 years ago
Good question. I will be interested in the answer too, just to see if I committed a sin by pouring my current brew onto the entire US-05 yeast-cake of the last.
I have done it once before in similar circumstances to yours jrodie, pouring a big all-extract IIPA onto a just-bottled-off Nottingham yeast-cake. Have to say I haven't detected any nastiness amongst all the other big flavours of that one.
BD
I have done it once before in similar circumstances to yours jrodie, pouring a big all-extract IIPA onto a just-bottled-off Nottingham yeast-cake. Have to say I haven't detected any nastiness amongst all the other big flavours of that one.
BD
Drinking: last K&B & extract brews, BIAB #1- Golden Ale, #2- Pale Ale, #3- Galaxy Single-hop Ale
In the Pipeline: ESB, Landlord
In the Pipeline: ESB, Landlord
Post #3 made 15 years ago
I would wonder if the oldest yeast cells would impart autolyzed off flavours or not pouring a full batch into it with the cake being old, plus your new beer would sit on it for another long while since it's on the higher gravity side.
I've always been under the impresion that a new starter needed to be used, but essentially, you ARE creating a huge starter for a big beer. I do remember,however, a tutorial online that showed the brewer collecting the cake and specifically stating that you want the middle third of the cake- not sure why biologically though.
I would be enlightened with the correct answer as well.
I've used big glass bowls for starters that the wife uses for cake mixing, just make sure its nicely sanitized and covered with foil tightly. I've been recommended that a liter of starter be used for the bigger beers
I've always been under the impresion that a new starter needed to be used, but essentially, you ARE creating a huge starter for a big beer. I do remember,however, a tutorial online that showed the brewer collecting the cake and specifically stating that you want the middle third of the cake- not sure why biologically though.
I would be enlightened with the correct answer as well.
I've used big glass bowls for starters that the wife uses for cake mixing, just make sure its nicely sanitized and covered with foil tightly. I've been recommended that a liter of starter be used for the bigger beers
Last edited by Squared on 23 Mar 2011, 10:41, edited 1 time in total.
Post #4 made 15 years ago
I think in general it sounds like a good plan, but I have a couple of questions/concerns...
I can't manipulate the pitching rate calc. to give only 1 pack needed without starter for 5 gal of a 1.058 beer. What inputs did you give it? I'm worried that 5 gal of 1.058 beer is awfully big for only one smack pack, maybe I'm wrong.
I'm also worried that the yeast will be stressed. If it turns out that you've underpitched, coupled with the fact that 1.058 is getting pretty high to re-pitch yeast from, your yeast may not have the gusto to finish the job in such a huge beer.
Regarding pitching into the pale ale's fermenter without cleaning...I can't see that being a problem. The flavor profile of the pale ale will be practically non-existent compared to a 1.133 IPA
. The risk of pouring yeast into multiple containers while you clean the fermenter doesn't seem worth the risk of contamination.
I can't manipulate the pitching rate calc. to give only 1 pack needed without starter for 5 gal of a 1.058 beer. What inputs did you give it? I'm worried that 5 gal of 1.058 beer is awfully big for only one smack pack, maybe I'm wrong.
I'm also worried that the yeast will be stressed. If it turns out that you've underpitched, coupled with the fact that 1.058 is getting pretty high to re-pitch yeast from, your yeast may not have the gusto to finish the job in such a huge beer.
Regarding pitching into the pale ale's fermenter without cleaning...I can't see that being a problem. The flavor profile of the pale ale will be practically non-existent compared to a 1.133 IPA
. The risk of pouring yeast into multiple containers while you clean the fermenter doesn't seem worth the risk of contamination.
Post #5 made 15 years ago
The one pack for 1.058 came from the directions on the smack pack.
According to it one smack pack will be enough for a beer up to 1.060.
I was thinking the same thing about the yeast being stressed out since 1.058 is so close to 1.060. In my defense I wasn't expecting an OG that high my efficiency was better than usual this time around.
According to it one smack pack will be enough for a beer up to 1.060.
I was thinking the same thing about the yeast being stressed out since 1.058 is so close to 1.060. In my defense I wasn't expecting an OG that high my efficiency was better than usual this time around.
Post #6 made 15 years ago
jrodie wrote:In my defense I wasn't expecting an OG that high my efficiency was better than usual this time around.
I honestly don't know what the right thing to do is. It would be a shame to pitch on the yeast cake only to have a stuck fermentation. What if you pitch a small amount (a gallon or so) of ~1.050 wort on the yeast cake to get them active and healthy, then pitch into the IPA? Just throwing out ideas...
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 23 Mar 2011, 10:54, edited 5 times in total.
Post #7 made 15 years ago
I can only speak from experience, not from a scientific background.
I have pitched onto yeast cake many, many times and have never had any ill effects.
I have also pitched light coloured beers onto the cake of darker coloured beers with no noticeable colour change or flavour change.
I generally get 3-4 brews from a single pitching of yeast, yes I'm a scab!
Just do it, it wont be a problem.
I have pitched onto yeast cake many, many times and have never had any ill effects.
I have also pitched light coloured beers onto the cake of darker coloured beers with no noticeable colour change or flavour change.
I generally get 3-4 brews from a single pitching of yeast, yes I'm a scab!
Just do it, it wont be a problem.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #8 made 15 years ago
I think just doing it is what I am going to do. Everyone here who has done it so far reports no problems. I said earlier it would take several pint glasses to get 235ml and I don't know what i was thinking because i just checked and it's only about 3/4's of one pint. So I guess it wouldn't be that hard to sanitize a pint glass pour some yeast cake in and re-pitch that yeast.
Also Hashie and others who have pitched directly on to the yeast cake, do you at least clean off all that gunk that is left behind from the first few days of fermentation on top of the fermenter?
Also a funny question is since ale yeast is top fermenting I thought well i guess it should be thrown on top. And lager yeast being bottom fermenting should be logically thrown in first to be on the bottom. I guess this must be all wrong. Does anyone know what top and bottom fermenting really means?
Also Hashie and others who have pitched directly on to the yeast cake, do you at least clean off all that gunk that is left behind from the first few days of fermentation on top of the fermenter?
Also a funny question is since ale yeast is top fermenting I thought well i guess it should be thrown on top. And lager yeast being bottom fermenting should be logically thrown in first to be on the bottom. I guess this must be all wrong. Does anyone know what top and bottom fermenting really means?
Post #9 made 15 years ago
jrodie, no I don't wipe anything off. I simply drain the fermenter, then re-fill with fresh wort. I pour the fresh wort from waist height to get it well aerated and to stir up the yeast cake.
I can't answer your last question without doing some research myself. Simple answer; just pitch the yeast, it knows what it needs to do.
I can't answer your last question without doing some research myself. Simple answer; just pitch the yeast, it knows what it needs to do.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #10 made 15 years ago
here is a link explaining the difference between bottom and top feeding yeast
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Difference_be ... ting_yeast
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Difference_be ... ting_yeast
Post #11 made 15 years ago
I back hashie. I reuse the yeast cake as much as I can. I really have never had a bad experience. I try to be smart about reusing and it sometimes is necessary to forgo reuse and pitch new. Also you have scare tactics in some yeast books saying not to reuse yeast or at least wash your yeast. Remember that those people make there living selling yeast and books! I would lie, steal and cheat to feed my family also! (Probably not, but who knows)?
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
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tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
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Post #12 made 15 years ago
That's funny. "Ignore the hype it's all wrong anyway." Sounds like the whole reason I got into biab in the first place.
Post #13 made 15 years ago
My Ale has come along beautifully. Had a quick start, with vigorous airlock activity after less than 6 hours, and dropped the grav from 1.050 to 1.010 over four days (maybe quicker, I didn't check prior). Tastes fabbo out of the test tube.big dave wrote:Good question. I will be interested in the answer too, just to see if I committed a sin by pouring my current brew onto the entire US-05 yeast-cake of the last.
I have done it once before in similar circumstances to yours jrodie, pouring a big all-extract IIPA onto a just-bottled-off Nottingham yeast-cake. Have to say I haven't detected any nastiness amongst all the other big flavours of that one.
BD
Last edited by big dave on 24 Mar 2011, 11:01, edited 5 times in total.
Drinking: last K&B & extract brews, BIAB #1- Golden Ale, #2- Pale Ale, #3- Galaxy Single-hop Ale
In the Pipeline: ESB, Landlord
In the Pipeline: ESB, Landlord
Post #15 made 15 years ago
It's a bad idea to overpitch to this level.
You will get a beer that is not what it could have been had you pitched at the right level.
Firstly you need to obviously use a new fermenter and just take the mrmalty approved amount of yeast sludge from the previous brew and pitch it on the new one.
If you use too much it is massively overpitching and causes issues with the body of the beer and also stops any yeast growth which is automatically going to produce less esters.
I could continue but another guy has already done a much better job than me so I'll link to another forum with a great explanation.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/why-no ... ke-166221/
You will get a beer that is not what it could have been had you pitched at the right level.
Firstly you need to obviously use a new fermenter and just take the mrmalty approved amount of yeast sludge from the previous brew and pitch it on the new one.
If you use too much it is massively overpitching and causes issues with the body of the beer and also stops any yeast growth which is automatically going to produce less esters.
I could continue but another guy has already done a much better job than me so I'll link to another forum with a great explanation.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/why-no ... ke-166221/
http://beernvictuals.blogspot.com/ My blog, If you like what you read post a comment on the blog comments section thanks, BIAB post coming soon.
