Hi All,
I've tried looking online for an answer to this but can't really find anything. I want to know if the same yeast strain is used in different beers and then harvested will the harvested yeast impart different flavours from one another.
I have brewed a Saison which I then racked onto some plums that had been cooked with cloves and then I harvested the yeast from the primary. There also seems to be yeast settling out in the secondary so if I harvested this yeast and then brewed two identical batches but one with the primary yeast and one with the secondary yeast would there be a noticeable difference in the flavour profile?
As Saison yeast gives so much flavour to the beer my thinking is if a yeast does acquire flavours then this would be a yeast it would be more noticeable with.
Thanks
Post #2 made 10 years ago
Yeast does Evolve over time, so, from batch to batch there will be very little Change.
If you you make the Same Batch time and time again, it would be best to only carry the yeast over 4-6 batches.
But, if you have a freezer, splitting the yeast into 10-12 Slants, and using one slant for 4-6 batches is good.
To collect and save yeast see Yeasty's Yeast Slants (slopes)
at http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=1372
If you you make the Same Batch time and time again, it would be best to only carry the yeast over 4-6 batches.
But, if you have a freezer, splitting the yeast into 10-12 Slants, and using one slant for 4-6 batches is good.
To collect and save yeast see Yeasty's Yeast Slants (slopes)
at http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=1372
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #3 made 10 years ago
I have notes from a single yeast vial that was reused over 12 times by simply harvesting some slurry and refrigerating. Several different recipes. No issues at all. im on batch 6 on some Irish ale yeast right now.
As well as reusing from the yeast cake, I take a sample from the original starter and store for that time when I just don't feel like harvesting. This starts the process over. Can go a couple years on a single purchase
As well as reusing from the yeast cake, I take a sample from the original starter and store for that time when I just don't feel like harvesting. This starts the process over. Can go a couple years on a single purchase
Post #4 made 10 years ago
Interesting question! I'm just starting to get into this process of pitching 1) on yeast cake and 2) robbing some slurry. Wyeast 2124 Bohemian lager (recent couple batches), but not yet drinking anything. At this point for me it has worked, saved me money on yeast, and I haven't seen any problems. Samples from the hydrometer all tasted good.
Would love to see details on how they change over time, Joshua. Obviously they must, or why do we have so many strains of yeast...? Anyhow, interesting question Gian.
***EDIT*** one of the smaller local microbreweries was pitching on yeast cake. Not sure how many times pitched, but probably dozens of batches. But then attenuation (I think it was that) started going south; something did... They had to buy new yeast. From one of their worker bees. It was big news (internally) for their brewery employees.
Would love to see details on how they change over time, Joshua. Obviously they must, or why do we have so many strains of yeast...? Anyhow, interesting question Gian.
***EDIT*** one of the smaller local microbreweries was pitching on yeast cake. Not sure how many times pitched, but probably dozens of batches. But then attenuation (I think it was that) started going south; something did... They had to buy new yeast. From one of their worker bees. It was big news (internally) for their brewery employees.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 50 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #5 made 10 years ago
Scott, Temperature is the main reason yeast change, Lager yeast can like 48F and 78F, Ale Yeasts prefer 72F, and go to 90F, and work at 62F.
Each yeast will create different Easters and Flavors, as they Change at different temperatures.
Saving the yeast at a high or Low temperature, will keep the Characteristics of the temperature.
That is how The Beer yeast Companies create different Strains.
Each yeast will create different Easters and Flavors, as they Change at different temperatures.
Saving the yeast at a high or Low temperature, will keep the Characteristics of the temperature.
That is how The Beer yeast Companies create different Strains.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #6 made 10 years ago
I forgot to mention, If you can Harvest yeast from near the End of Fermentation, and make Higher and Higher gravity beers, you will be able to create a Distiller yeast(18% ABV+) with a flavor profile you like.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #7 made 10 years ago
Hey Joshua, thanks for responding. That's a bunch of information but not a lot of detail (why, etc.). (Have links???)
So if I'm understanding you correctly you were saying that lager yeast if you warm up the fermentation temperature and then keep the yeast stored at a warmer temperature like 70°F that the yeast will metabolize or whatever the word is actually changing itself through birth and regrowth to function well at that warmer Temperature. And develop new characteristics to function of a different temperature. And same thing with an ale yeast. You had the example of an ale used going to 62°F in learning to adapt to ferment at that temperature. And can you take the temp lower than that that, can you make an ale yeast function work for lager beer down at 50°F over time? With changes to modify itself?
I thought the yeast companies were pretty much just copying different yeasts that are being used throughout the world...? I did not know that they were actually inventing new strains ...
Seems like this information in topic would make a very good chapter in a book, or a fairly long magazine article if filled with appropriate detail.
Interesting information. Thanks. I'd like to learn more details to help understand "why", etc. Do you have some links you could post?
So if I'm understanding you correctly you were saying that lager yeast if you warm up the fermentation temperature and then keep the yeast stored at a warmer temperature like 70°F that the yeast will metabolize or whatever the word is actually changing itself through birth and regrowth to function well at that warmer Temperature. And develop new characteristics to function of a different temperature. And same thing with an ale yeast. You had the example of an ale used going to 62°F in learning to adapt to ferment at that temperature. And can you take the temp lower than that that, can you make an ale yeast function work for lager beer down at 50°F over time? With changes to modify itself?
I thought the yeast companies were pretty much just copying different yeasts that are being used throughout the world...? I did not know that they were actually inventing new strains ...
Seems like this information in topic would make a very good chapter in a book, or a fairly long magazine article if filled with appropriate detail.
Interesting information. Thanks. I'd like to learn more details to help understand "why", etc. Do you have some links you could post?
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 50 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #8 made 10 years ago
Scott if your interested in Yeast for Ethanol Production,
http://mbio.asm.org/content/6/4/e00431-15.full
For a long link on how Lager yeast were created and how they are changing,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4187645/
For The temperature dependence of maltose transport in ale and lager strains of brewer's yeast,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2878602/
For Experiment: Effects of Fermentation Temperature on Beer
http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/08/06/exp ... e-on-beer/
And For a company Brochure about their "NEW" High Temperature Yeast,
http://www.lallemandbds.com/transferm_y ... cument.pdf
Yeast has a very Small DNA Set, and can be altered by Reproduction At different Temperatures, CO2 pressures, Sugar Content, and Alcohol Content.
As long as you Use the Same strain of yeast at the same Fermentation Temperatures, your Stain can last 100's of generations
.
http://mbio.asm.org/content/6/4/e00431-15.full
For a long link on how Lager yeast were created and how they are changing,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4187645/
For The temperature dependence of maltose transport in ale and lager strains of brewer's yeast,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2878602/
For Experiment: Effects of Fermentation Temperature on Beer
http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/08/06/exp ... e-on-beer/
And For a company Brochure about their "NEW" High Temperature Yeast,
http://www.lallemandbds.com/transferm_y ... cument.pdf
Yeast has a very Small DNA Set, and can be altered by Reproduction At different Temperatures, CO2 pressures, Sugar Content, and Alcohol Content.
As long as you Use the Same strain of yeast at the same Fermentation Temperatures, your Stain can last 100's of generations
.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #9 made 10 years ago
Awesome post Joshua and great links, consider me impressed!
---Todd
---Todd
WWBBD?
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #10 made 10 years ago
Joshua, thanks a bunch for posting the links! You're a walking textbook of info. Appreciate the links big time. I'm a "detail" guy. But if I get part of the answer on something I care about but it doesn't explain "why", then it sometimes it creates as many questions for me. So again, thank you!
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 50 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #11 made 10 years ago
Thanks Todd.
Scott, Why do yeast change?????
Survival.
And to do that they need to evolve.
During fermentation, yeast may have Many Generations, each one need to adjust to the new conditions in the fermenter.
That is how in a few 'years' people created a "Super Yeast".
It tastes Horrible, but, gets to nearly 20% ABV before dying off.
Scott, Why do yeast change?????
Survival.
And to do that they need to evolve.
During fermentation, yeast may have Many Generations, each one need to adjust to the new conditions in the fermenter.
That is how in a few 'years' people created a "Super Yeast".
It tastes Horrible, but, gets to nearly 20% ABV before dying off.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #12 made 10 years ago
Well this is definitely turning into a super interesting thread, Josh... Can't wait to review your links, probably this weekend sometime.
So how do you keep yeast "the same"...? Seems like Pilsner Urquel or others with famous beer have to do something to keep things the same. And speaking of that, didn't Pilsner Urquel used to have up to 5 strains they used? Think they did, and are now cut back to just one. If we like a particular strain, to be able to continually reuse it, we probably want it to remain the same.
So how do you keep yeast "the same"...? Seems like Pilsner Urquel or others with famous beer have to do something to keep things the same. And speaking of that, didn't Pilsner Urquel used to have up to 5 strains they used? Think they did, and are now cut back to just one. If we like a particular strain, to be able to continually reuse it, we probably want it to remain the same.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 50 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #13 made 10 years ago
Scott, If you "Stumble" across a yeast strain you Like, and Collect a liter or so.
Break that onto 20-25 smaller Tubes, Remove ALL air, and Hold the tubes about 35F, in a container in the refrigerator.
Then, the day Before make a Starter large enough for you Batch from One of the Tubes.
When you get Low on Supplies, Make a slow starter over 3-4 days, holding the Temperature you ferment at, and Divide that into 20-25 tubes.
You do not need to freeze the samples like Yeasty did in the Above posts, if you brew every few weeks.
People keep Bread yeast Strains alive this way for Years!!!
http://allrecipes.com/recipe/17513/no-c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... t-starter/
Break that onto 20-25 smaller Tubes, Remove ALL air, and Hold the tubes about 35F, in a container in the refrigerator.
Then, the day Before make a Starter large enough for you Batch from One of the Tubes.
When you get Low on Supplies, Make a slow starter over 3-4 days, holding the Temperature you ferment at, and Divide that into 20-25 tubes.
You do not need to freeze the samples like Yeasty did in the Above posts, if you brew every few weeks.
People keep Bread yeast Strains alive this way for Years!!!
Last edited by joshua on 17 Oct 2015, 07:15, edited 1 time in total.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #14 made 10 years ago
keep in mind, this "change" takes many many generations to become apparent in the home brewing arena unless the yeasts are abused. The breakdown of the original yeast into smaller packaging is always best practice.
These smaller packages can be used to make starters and then the yeast cake can be utilized for several batches. The savings are huge.
Take a single vial,- $9 Cdn
Make 1L Starter -$1
Break starter down into 10 - 100ml samples
you just right there saved $70-80 dollars in yeast
If you use any individual sample more than once it compounds.
There are allot of folks out there that bash re-using yeast saying it is cheap, well, its not. It can easily make up 50% the cost of any 5 gallon batch
These smaller packages can be used to make starters and then the yeast cake can be utilized for several batches. The savings are huge.
Take a single vial,- $9 Cdn
Make 1L Starter -$1
Break starter down into 10 - 100ml samples
you just right there saved $70-80 dollars in yeast
If you use any individual sample more than once it compounds.
There are allot of folks out there that bash re-using yeast saying it is cheap, well, its not. It can easily make up 50% the cost of any 5 gallon batch
Post #15 made 10 years ago
BellyBuster, When I Moved to 4L-6L size Batches, $8 Dollar us, is way too Much to brew a batch since a 50ml starter is needed.
That is why my fridge has almost Half a self of little tubes, 20 per liter, by 4 liter
So I need to make a new liter year or So
I almost never reuse yeast anymore, I use those $$$$ vials to make 20-30 starter tubes.
$8.00/25 is $0.40 per batch for that yeast!
That is why my fridge has almost Half a self of little tubes, 20 per liter, by 4 liter
So I need to make a new liter year or So
I almost never reuse yeast anymore, I use those $$$$ vials to make 20-30 starter tubes.
$8.00/25 is $0.40 per batch for that yeast!
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #16 made 10 years ago
I do the same for the most part. Sure cuts the cost down.
I am going to start freezing again so I can build up my yeast bank. At one time I had over 30 different yeasts to pick from. Most came from a cup full of slurry from other peoples" brews. I lost it when I moved.
I am going to start freezing again so I can build up my yeast bank. At one time I had over 30 different yeasts to pick from. Most came from a cup full of slurry from other peoples" brews. I lost it when I moved.
Post #17 made 10 years ago
Joshua, read your links. Pretty thick biology on many of them (I was a business major). Some interesting notes, scientists think part of lager yeast strains introduced in Europe 500 years ago originally either came from the Andes mountains in modern day Argentina (most likely), to possibly the Tebetian plain in Asia (Tibet?). But really difficult to understand for the non-scientist; was like they were talking another language. If you are a scientist and understand genetics really well you can likely glean lots more info from it...
I saw info that indicated some scientists are testing new beer yeasts, but only your one brochure for the modified / high temp resistant yeast strain actually being marketed. Didn't see where any were actually being used in the field (unless brewers are buying this one).
***EDIT*** I've read some about the freezing yeast samples. Sounds interesting. So far, I saved a jar of sloppy slurry, tried to pour off the top of the yeast cake, and hoped / figured it should work provided I use it within 3 months. I can see the long-term advantage of freezing small samples...but sounds like that could be a lot more work. (???)
I saw info that indicated some scientists are testing new beer yeasts, but only your one brochure for the modified / high temp resistant yeast strain actually being marketed. Didn't see where any were actually being used in the field (unless brewers are buying this one).
***EDIT*** I've read some about the freezing yeast samples. Sounds interesting. So far, I saved a jar of sloppy slurry, tried to pour off the top of the yeast cake, and hoped / figured it should work provided I use it within 3 months. I can see the long-term advantage of freezing small samples...but sounds like that could be a lot more work. (???)
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 50 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #18 made 10 years ago
The link was 2 or 3 years old, to see what is available Now,
http://www.homebrewing.org/Super-Yeast- ... _1946.html
Changing yeast while using ambient temperatures, is very easy to do, BTDT, and I created a "Super Clove" flavored yeast, Way to much Esters.
and see Turbo Yeast,
http://www.homebrewing.org/Liquor-Quik- ... _1945.html
http://www.homebrewing.org/Super-Yeast- ... _1946.html
Changing yeast while using ambient temperatures, is very easy to do, BTDT, and I created a "Super Clove" flavored yeast, Way to much Esters.
and see Turbo Yeast,
http://www.homebrewing.org/Liquor-Quik- ... _1945.html
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #19 made 10 years ago
Thanks all for the replies and the interesting discussion between Joshua and Scott. I'll need to read through all the links that Joshua posted.
I think my main point was if the yeast is feeding off a different type of sugar (in my case from the plums) would the yeast alter and so the flavours it creates but I see from the posts it is all to do with the temperature. The idea of creating a distiller's yeast is very interesting!
Thanks again all for your thoughts and knowledge!
I think my main point was if the yeast is feeding off a different type of sugar (in my case from the plums) would the yeast alter and so the flavours it creates but I see from the posts it is all to do with the temperature. The idea of creating a distiller's yeast is very interesting!
Thanks again all for your thoughts and knowledge!
