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Mad_Scientist wrote:Interesting thread, made me think. I steeped C15 a couple of times based on reading and believing Gordon Strong's book and video. I just read a thread over on HBT and believe a well respected member there when he said, that if you hold back all your crystal and dark grain till steeping, it will throw off the pH in the boil kettle leaving it taste astringent. Think I got that right.

This chart is convincing to me. http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
in regards to crystal 10 and 15.

Mashing all malt except, black patent and roast barley makes sense to me. How do you deal with the darkest of grains? pH in mash?

Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk

I have seen some differing in opinions in the research on this, but I really just average it all for myself instead of pushing those boundaries to see what I actually prefer in a taste test. Right now it is working well for me, so I focus my attention elsewhere.

It's my understanding that pH drops from .1 to .3 from mash through boil. Taking context from a hoppy IPA, 5.3 is usually my target mash pH as I like the most fermentable wort possible (attributes like added body I will control with mash temp and specialty malts) ... then hoping to find the post boil "sweet spot" of 5.0 to 5.2 (best range for protein coagulation, SMM reduction, and hop aroma retention).

I have noticed an average drop of .25 for myself ... so I altered my water chem to target 5.35 for my hoppy beers in order to hit a "nominal" post boil pH of 5.1. It's all estimation, but it works for me.

To make a long story longer, I would not add the crystal malt late in a mash ... it would throw off my balance. Low mash pH has its merits all by itself, so I would also want to keep my target low for that, as well as targeting a specific boil kettle pH.

Hitting a mash pH of 5.4ish, finishing at 5.1-ish (post boil), fermenting from 1.07 to 1.01 ... and having sufficient hop aroma, crispness and adequate body ... priceless. I could be misusing all of this knowledge, but in the end it has undoubtedly helped me produce a consistent IPA that is tailored to my taste.

Not all beers will require these same numbers to be hit, so when I move on to perfect another style I will have to look at every step in order to find new targets. I do add my dark grains for a black IPA later in the mash, but I do also target a slightly higher main-mash pH to compensate. It's not a comfortable compromise for me, but I think adding the grains later here is worth it. This beer has consistently finished higher than I like on FG, but I really do like the end result of adding the roasted malts later on (midnight wheat and carafa iii). Can't have it all, but I will continue to tweak it. I may leave everything the same and simply scale it down in gravity next time so the yeast aren't as "stressed" (if they even are stressed), I dunno yet.

Personally, I have seen a difference in three brews of my session IPA recipe since increasing my light crystal addition from 5% to 7% as well as increasing nominal mash temperature 1-2 degrees F (single infusion). This, all after increasing mash temp 4 degrees without a change. Hard to say for sure, because even though pH targets have been identical ... grains and hops have differed slightly. BUT, I think it matters ...

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mally wrote:I'm not sure if I am misunderstanding any of this, but as Joshua mentioned there may be national differences in terminology.

When dealing with speciality grains that have been stewed, and therefore, do not need to be mashed;
I view this as the maltster has determined what the composition of the carbohydrates should be. Any amylase enzyme that sees these carbohydrates is likely to change that composition. This may or may not be a bad thing?

As a pure guess I could elude that BDP having mashed the crystal (presuming they are stewed malts) altered the profile of those carbohydrates from less fermentable types to more fermentable types. Hence the greater attenuation & possibly why the flavours were reduced (maybe some of the flavour comes from the longer chain sugars)?

I would be interested to see if you did this exact recipe again BDP but steeped or added these speciality grains at the end of the mash, whether you see a difference.

As for the pH thing, this is definitely a national difference. Most UK brewers adjust their liquor with acid additions to reduce alkalinity so that the mash is brought into the correct range. For me, I do not include these speciality additions in that calculation. They get added at the end of the mash when any pH effects are mitigated. I guess these late additions will lower the pH further, but at this stage I am less concerned.

My first couple of IPA's were a bit thin with muddled flavors (aroma was great, though), so I read and read and came up with this. That was from too high a pH for the style as it turned out, but the beer was still pretty good as it was. As far as "too low" a pH and astringent flavors, and theoretical consequences of being under optimal conditions for a certain style ... I never have actually experienced that.

As much as I rant on, I feel like everyone has a tongue and nose (I think? ) ... and that is always the most important instrument to guide us.

As far as flavors go, I didn't say much about that. I like to use dingeman's caravienne/cara 20, and in one IPA I blend it with a small amount of honey malt. 5.1% carav and 2.6% honey malt. Sometimes I just use the 2.6% honey malt (cara is just replaced with more base malt), huge difference to me when I do this ... even at 1.010 FG. Compared to Briess crystal malts, I think the belgian is much more subdued as far as sweetness (although I have never used the 10L to be fair, just 30,40,60,80,120).

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crystal malt fermentability

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