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Consistently miss efficiencies .. time to tweak Section X?

Post #1 made 11 years ago
by BungBrew
So I have 11 FVM BIABs under my belt and produced some very good beer! :champ:

All my brews have been on the same equipment so now I am looking closer at processes.

I have noticed that on all my brews I have missed the mark on my efficiencies:

All figures below are Estimated - Actual..

Batch 7
EIB -10.2%
EAW -19%
EIF -14.4%

Batch 8
EIB -3.3%
EAW -2.8%
EIF -1.6%

Batch 9
EIB -0.1%
EAW -2.6%
EIF -2.3%

Batch 10
EIB -6.9%
EAW -13.7%
EIF -12.1%

Batch 11
EIB -3.9%
EAW -8.1%
EIF -6.2%

What things should I be paying attention to so I can

a. get more consistent results
b. hit my OG and vol each brew

I guess the things which are variable each brew for me are:

1. Malt crush speed - I use a hand drill powering a two roller mill, it is hard to keep a constant speed though each grain seems split
2. Malt bill - as every brew to date have been differing styles (mostly), I have had to buy most of my malt from local homebrew suppliers
3. Hops - Usually between 22-30 IBUs depending on recipe, differing varieties

I always do a 90 min mash including mashout + 90 min boil.

After some guidance from the brew gurus :thumbs:

Post #2 made 11 years ago
by Rick
I don't remember from past threads, but are you minding your mash pH? Are you tweaking your brew water for each style, or is it the same? Have you had your brew water analyzed?
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Post #4 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Bung, I'm not understanding the numbers sorry. Say for Batch 7 do you mean that your EIB was say estimated at maybe 80% but you got 69.8%?

Let us know on that one. Also try and advise on what your OG was. (In other words, a big or small beer).

Forget EIF for now as that is just a poor cousin to EAW and EIB.
EIB is the parent of EAW and hopefully they look very similiar :). Batch 8, 9 and 11 look similiar (within 5%) whilst batches 7 and 10 look a bit dodgy.

Regardless. all numbers are negative. If what I have written in my first paragraph above is the correct assumption, then there is a problem.

First thing to do is study Some Common Reasons for a Low Efficiency Reading.

Anything there ring true Bung?
Last edited by PistolPatch on 04 Jun 2014, 21:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 11 years ago
by BungBrew
Sorry for my lack of information.

Attached is the water report for my area.

Yes PP you are indeed correct with your assumptions on the numbers. Most of the batches were 1.050 +/- .005

Looking at your excellent post I believe my only non-compliant action is #7 not corrected mash pH.

Cooincidentily I have already ordered this which I will use in my next brew:

5.2 PH Stabiliser
http://craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=2538
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Last edited by BungBrew on 05 Jun 2014, 12:22, edited 1 time in total.

Post #6 made 11 years ago
by Rick
I don't know how much you looked into the 5.2pH Stabilizer product, but I've read in many places that it doesn't work very well. I haven't tried it, so I can't say for sure.

I'd suggest using sauermalz and/or brewing salts for proper control, if the product does not work.
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Post #7 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Yep Bung, the pH 5.2 is not that great. As Rick said, in some waters it won't work and in BIAB you re adjusting all your water so it can be expensive using that. (I know you don't want to hear that but maybe ring CraftBrewer and see if you can change it for another product if they haven't shipped already.) Things that are good and easy for adjusting pH without getting into the complexities of brewing salts are citric acid from your supermarket, white vinegar if your pH doesn't need too much adjusting or using acidulated malt as part of your base grain.

As for your water report, you'll have to do a bit of reading if you want to go down that avenue. Best place to start though is to check with local brewers if there is some obvious deficiency in your local water that everyone corrects for.

I think though that the pH correction will make a significant difference in your case. Get some pH paper. Make sure you get the right sort too.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 06 Jun 2014, 00:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 11 years ago
by jhough
Bung. Might try a couple of bathes with RO water. Here in MId Florida USA we have hard water and I use a mix of 2:1 RO to tap in my mash . I have not had any complaints on taste so far .Other than my Wifey not liking my hoppy beers .. I only get to make them when BobBrews leaves some hops for me to buy. :party:
J
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Post #9 made 11 years ago
by BobBrews
jhough,
I only get to make them when BobBrews leaves some hops for me to buy. :party:
I am doing my best to buy up the market. My beer freezer is pretty much full! two bottles of hop vodka are sitting between the kegs. :smoke:
Last edited by BobBrews on 08 Jun 2014, 19:16, edited 1 time in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

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Post #10 made 11 years ago
by BungBrew
So I now have 17 batches completed and feel I have the process pretty well sorted.

Over the 17 batches I have found:

Batch EIK EIF
1 59.8 63.4
2 80.2 70.6
3 74.1 62.1
4 81.8 72.2
5 72.1 65.5
6 80 72.1
7 75.1 62.5
8 81.4 74.7
9 84.2 73.7
10 77.8 64.1
11 79.5 68.9
12 80.7 70.2
13 77.2 64.9
14 69.6 67.3
15 77.1 67.8
16 73.7 62.4
17 82.7 63.7


Giving an average:

EIK - 76.9
EIF - 67.4

I never seem to hit my target OG always being a few points low.

I believe my mash pH is ok as I get decent EIK but always get concerned that my EIF is low .. though I always hit my VIF.

Advice / ideas?

Post #11 made 11 years ago
by mally
Bung - I know you said that most of your batches are 1.050, but could you add another column in there that list the OG too?

I just wondered if gravity was a factor to think about or eliminate :think:
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Post #12 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Lol mally. Was just writing the below :)...

Hey Bung ;),

Couple of things... EIF is the poor cousin to kettle efficiency*. In fact the only difference between the two is your 'Kettle to Fermentor Loss - KFL'. So, it is actually much better to provide KFL rather than EIF. We also need your estimates as well as the actuals. In fact the ideal info would be to fill out the little spreadsheet below and post that up. (I'm assuming you are not doing anything in Section W).

I know it's a lot of numbers to fill in in one hit but it is all the info we need and will definitely tell us what you need to tweak (just do your last five brews if you like). Fantastic btw that you have collected so much data.

:thumbs: :clap:
PP

* If you are only going to use one kettle efficiency, then 'Efficiency of Ambient Wort - EAW' is usually more accurate to measure than 'Efficiency into Boil - EIB'.
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Post #13 made 11 years ago
by BungBrew
Well here is my brew records for the last 9 months, it is interesting to see how the weather has affected the evaporation and the few brews I only had a single element.

I actually got pretty close to the mark on some brews and my rig and processes have remained the same (except I now use 2 thermometers etc).

I guess one self admitted downfall is I don't check the gravity during the boil only at the end. May have to invest in a refractometer.

Anyway attached is the good, the bad and the ugly.
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Post #14 made 11 years ago
by PistolPatch
Nice work Bung. Those figures look very honest :peace:,

That's fine about not checking the gravity during the boil. I'm assuming you took a reading into the boil (otherwise we's have no EIB records).

I've added a new sheet below. I've deleted Batch's 1 and 16 as they were oddities and have put in the averages of each column. I've also added a Volume of Ambient Wort section.

Volumes

Evaporation is spot on as is the Volume into Fermentor. Kettle to Fermentor Loss is 2.1 L which is 0.5 L below the estimated. That extra 0.5 L acts as a nice buffer for days when you have higher evaporation etc so I wouldn't change anything on the volumes.

Gravities

Well, the low original gravity is where the problem is and it is confirmed by the kettle efficiencies (EIB and EAW) both being well under the estimated. (More below).

What to Check

I'd really be expecting you to be getting an average 'Efficiency of Ambient Wort' about 5% higher than that estimated rather than 8% below so something is a bit strange there. Double-check the way you are taking your volume readings and gravity samples. Make sure the wort is well-mixed before getting your gravity sample and cooled to ambient.

Double-check the weight of your grain bill before doughing in. Use a different set of scales if possible to what your grain was weighted by eg bathroom scales.

Finally check through this list very carefully.

Discrepancies

Don't worry about the 5% discrepancy between EIB and EAW. That's pretty common.

Let us know if anything above rings any bells ;),
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 01 Sep 2014, 21:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #15 made 11 years ago
by BungBrew
Thanks PP.

I do ensure the hydro sample has cooled to ambient before accepting the reading and my process it to pull the bag at the end of mashout, stir the wort and then take the sample. I do notice however the preboil sample usually has floaties in it .. perhaps proteins? but these typically settle before the sample has cooled (an issue?)

I will borrow some scales from a local brew mate next brew to see if that is a contributing factor..

One thing that has occured to me reviewing the data is the first three batches I used malt crushed from local homebrew supply the rest I crushed using a marga mill I purchased from a brewer doing an upgrade .. perhaps the crush is also contributing?

I will recalibrate my hydrometer before the next brew day and may see if I can borrow a refractometer from my local brewing mate also.

Thanks for your contructive feedback in the persuit of better brewing!
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