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Filtering Idea

Post #1 made 13 years ago
by kartoffel
When I'm going to rack, with my auto siphon, to secondary I'm always careful of the trub at the bottom. In brewing BIAB style this trub has been much larger in volume than with any other brewing technique I have ever used. I wan't to know some other peoples thoughts before I try this idea of mine. I'm wanting to put a small muslin bag, I'll make it myself just for this purpose, on the end of my hose coming from my auto siphon. This should help if I want to get every last drop, and I would imagine that the little bit of trub gunk I pick up will stay in the bag. I won't be going overboard sucking up trub to get the last drops but the bag is more of an insurance policy for the every last drop. I'll probably use a sanitized stainless steel hose clamp on the end of the tube just tight enough not to colapse the tubing. I've been having troubles getting clear beer using biab, and I use careful siphoning, Irish moss, and gelatin in secondary. Some of it could be chill haze, but the no chill people report clear beer all the time; and I've been using, at least, an ice bath.

Post #2 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
I'd like to hear more about what's happening with your brews kartoffel. Finding the cause will be much better than working around the problem. Also, putting a small muslin bag on the end of the syphon will result in a disaster as the bag will 'silt' up very quickly unfortunately.

So, before we go back to that can you give some more detail on your current brewing method? e.g....

1. When you say above, "Any other brewing technique I have used," what were they?

2. Are you making any water chemistry adjustments? Have you before?\

3. Are you using a hop sock?

4. If no hop sock are you whirlpooling?

5. If no-chill, how long before you drain the kettle after flame-out?

6. Do you have a tap? If so, what's the set-up on the inside of the kettle?

7. How coarse/fine is your bag. (If possible use a powerful magnifyuing glass to count how many threads there are per cm.).

Fingers crossed we can solve this and save you resorting to trying to filter the wort from your kettle.

;)
PP
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Post #3 made 13 years ago
by BobBrews
kartoffel,

Trub looks unappetizing and we don't want any in our fermenters. This is natural to want to keep it out. But! But being a lazy clod I didn't want to do any work that I didn't have too! So lately I have been dumping all the wort (and trub) into my no chill container. The day after it cools I pitch my yeast into the no chill "cube". I replaced the cap with a extra cap that has a airlock placed in the center of it. I ferment on top of the trub that has settled because of the Irish moss coagulating effect. Guess what! The beer is crystal clear and tastes the same as "Regularly" no chilled beer.

So all in all I wouldn't lose too much sleep over trub "contamination"? There is a natural aversion to trub but when push comes to shove the resulting beer will win your heart or your competition?
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Post #4 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
Bob, I think kartoffel's problem isn't trub, it is a cloudy/hazy end result. As you say, trub often has little to do with this.

It's an interesting problem he has posted. Hopefully we can get it sorted?

One more question for kartoffel...

Where are you from? As we are from all over the planet and this could well be a water problem, knowing where you are from makes a big difference.

;)
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Post #6 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
Lol! I mis-read questions all the time! I can't believe this is your first!

Sometimes mis-reading the question helps anyway. (I hope so! LOL!)
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Post #7 made 13 years ago
by joshua
Good Day, I use a large muslin/chessecloth/polyester cloth bag to collect trub and hop debris....Not for clear beer, but, to weigh the junk.

Removing the trub never helped clear my beer, just makes more of it.

If I use more than 10% of wheat or oats, I do get a good haze in the bear, that can only be filtered.

P.S. the filtering made the beer weak, and lost a lot of flavor, I settle for hazy with beer wheat or oats.

Just my $0.02 us/au
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #8 made 13 years ago
by kartoffel
1. When you say above, "Any other brewing technique I have used," what were they?
Partial mashes and a few MLT/vorlauf(not my equipment)

2. Are you making any water chemistry adjustments? Have you before?
No, never have. Milwaukee water. A few major breweries here just because of the water (Lakefront, MKE brewing and some smaller ones)

3. Are you using a hop sock?
No, never have either. I'm dry hopping a 'imperial' red ale of mine soon and am considering it but I might just do a tertiary racking for that beer.

4. If no hop sock are you whirlpooling?
Yes, I whirlpool and try to be carefull not to mess up the resulting cone of gunk.

5. If no-chill, how long before you drain the kettle after flame-out?
I do a shitty-chill. Just an ice bath for me so I let it sit for 60-90 minutes usually.

6. Do you have a tap? If so, what's the set-up on the inside of the kettle?
Nope just using the trusty old autosiphon

7. How coarse/fine is your bag. (If possible use a powerful magnifyuing glass to count how many threads there are per cm.).
It's a polyester voile bag I tried counting threads a long time ago it's hard they're so small. I would say its about 3-4 per mm so 30-40 a cm.

And yea, if anything I do like the idea of more beer. I'm probably being too conservative but I'm leaving I would guess at least a liter of good beer behind trying not to touch the trub, and leaving that much or a bit less when I go to secondary. I have about 3-4CM or more of trub at the bottom of my better bottle at the end of primary.

I did a wheat beer and it was hazy, too be expected. It left a large ammount of junk in the bottom of the bottle after conditioning more than I would usually expect. All of my BIAB brews have seemed to have that problem too with excesive yeast in the bottle after conditioning, and I don't add extra yeast to bottle.

I also bottle condition for at least 2 weeks(usually more like 4) and chill in the fridge for at least 1 week but I prefer two weeks. I still got haze in a beer that was just plain 2row american pale malt and 1 type of hop.

sorry if any of this has glaring spelling mistakes this damn laptop(linux) of mine won't spell check on some forums.

Post #9 made 13 years ago
by BrickBrewHaus
Few questions/comments...

1)Are you proposing this filtering idea because you have a haze problem and think it might be related to excessive trub into the fermenter?

2)If yes to the above, what are some of the reasons you think that?

3)Regarding the filter idea...I agree with PP, the filter at the end of the auto-siphon will clock very quickly. The only way (never tried it, just speculating) is to be very careful to not suck up any trub to begin with, using the filter as a last-resort aid to stop anything you may have sucked up. But then I don't think you're accomplishing much by collecting more wort.

4)Regarding excessive yeast in the bottle...Are you being very careful when racking to the bottling bucket and filling bottles so as to reduce oxygen contact (tilting the bucket to quickly fill a few inches then keeping the hose immersed in beer, making sure there's no bubbling in the auto-siphon when racking, etc.)? This is speculation also, but yeast reproduce aerobically (consuming oxygen). If you incorporate a bunch of oxygen during bottling, they're using the oxygen along with the new sugar to reproduce. Again, speculation, but it makes sense in my head :cool: Regardless if this is the reason for lots of yeast, its good practice to reduce oxygen pick-up post-fermentation.

5)If you think its chill haze, a simple way to test is to let the beer warm up after pouring. If its cloudy at cold temps but clear at warmer temps, then its chill haze. If the haze hangs around at all temps, then its something else.

Post #10 made 13 years ago
by PistolPatch
Only have a few minutes atm kartoffel but here's a few ideas...

Haze

1. Check on local brewing forums to see if other brewers are treating their water and whether the current grain crop is okay. Crappy grain can give cloudy beer.

2. Make sure you get your pH right.

3. Mash for 90 minutes and do a mash out to ensure complete conversion.

4. Boil for 90 minutes and make sure that your boil is a good rolling boil.

Trub Management

On your next brew, once you have mashed out, empty and rinse your grain bag. Then use it in the boil as a hop sock. Don't line the kettle with it though, just have it hanging lazily in the wort with enough of an opening to slip your hops into. This will decrease your kettle trub by heaps and you shouldn't need to whirlpool.

Finally try and syphon your kettle from where you chill it as moving it after the chill will stir up all the fine sediment etc.

Fingers crossed ;),
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 12 Jun 2012, 07:00, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #11 made 13 years ago
by kartoffel
1. Will do
2. One of these days
3 and 4 already do that.

I think I'm going to make a muslin bag since I have muslin a lot of it. I also will try muslin for the bag even if it doesn't last as long it's super cheap and much easier to sew.

Post #14 made 13 years ago
by Aces high
dont worry about the trub, brew a couple of extra litres (say $2 worth of grain more), cold chill and syphon the beautiful clean beer off the trub. bottle, drink, smile, brew more beer :thumbs:

I may of skipped over a few details, but this is how it works for me

Post #15 made 13 years ago
by BobBrews
I'll just skip the muslin
Muslin is no good anyway. It holds wort to much and doesn't drain very well!
Last edited by BobBrews on 16 Jun 2012, 00:37, edited 3 times in total.
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tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

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Post #16 made 13 years ago
by kartoffel
Should I be more concerned, than I am, about just throwing pellet hops into secondary for 7 days. Then doing my best to cold crash and carefully move to bottle bucket. I would think the muslin bag would be good for that if anything, but a lot of what I read people just throw it in and it's fine.

I'm also from WI BobBrews

Post #17 made 13 years ago
by BobBrews
kartoffel,

I throw the dry hops in and I don't worry about it. In a hoppy brew I will throw as many as 4 ounces of hops in a week before bottling. The pellets don't interfere with the process as long as you are careful. A bottle of homebrew will have sediment in the bottom from the priming sugar. A flake of hops that gets through your best bottling efforts will get imbedded in the sediment in the bottom. No worries!

Go Packers!
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #18 made 13 years ago
by kartoffel
Well I made a belgian IPA a few days ago. I took the boil and cooled it down with my new 18$ IC and took about 10 minutes. Then put a boiled muslin bag the same size as my BIAB bag into a sanitized 5gal bucket. Dumped the wort into the bag and realized just how bad muslin does at filtering. It came through the bag in one little spot just a steady small stream. I tried to squeeze the bag while being sanitary... I felt like the muslin was waterproof. Next time I'm doing the same thing with a 2nd BIAB nylon bag just to get the hops out since I've been using whole hops. Tasted some of the wort that has been fermenting for 7 days now and it's delicious. A lot less trub in my primary than I am used to seeing just a small tightly packed yeast cake at the bottom.

And for any one wondering about fermcap I used it for the first time on this batch, and let me say wow. What an awesome project. I put 10 drops, rain drop size, into the boil. First thing I knoticed was how different the boil looked. There was not even a chance for boil over to happen. I would have happily left it alone. Apparently the stuff still does it's magic in the carboy too since I was expecting a massive krauzen from the belgian high gravity yeast. Nope the yeast looked weird just clumps hanging out at the top much different looking. No krauzen build up at all nearly. Then it all fell down after about 4 days, and already attenuated fully. Crazy stuff hopefully some law office doesn't show up on my TV ten years from now advertizing a class action against silcone surface tension drops causing some sort of horrible disease.

Post #19 made 13 years ago
by lambert
kartoffel wrote:Crazy stuff hopefully some law office doesn't show up on my TV ten years from now advertizing a class action against silcone surface tension drops causing some sort of horrible disease.
It seems to be the same stuff that we used to give to our babies for colic! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simethicone. I wonder if any of it remains in the beer - seems to make you fart (more). :interesting: :shock: :lol:
Last edited by lambert on 03 Jul 2012, 07:15, edited 3 times in total.
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