Good day all,
I've been BIAB brewing for about a year and a half and have done about 25 batches. I'm happy with the beer I'm brewing, but I've decided it may be time to tweak a few things. I am not really sure if it would be worth the trouble/expense - so I'm looking for some feedback. I'm a bit anal so it's important to me that I hit my numbers, both OG, FG and volume (consistency is real important to me). I have a 15 gallon kettle and do 5 gallon batches. I line my bag around a basket so I can direct fire without worrying about scorching the bag or grain.
I'm debating adding a pump to my setup so that I could recirculate the mash and whirlpool after the boil. I'm already getting about 81% mash efficiency and I don't want to go any higher, but my beers are consistently finishing lower then I intend (sometimes just .001, but I've had them go about .005 lower before) and I believe that's because I often lose a degree or two while mashing or because of the 90 minute mash leading to a highly fermentable wort (I check the temp and stir every 30 minutes and often have to add heat back). I think I can more easily control and maintain the heat if I could direct fire while recirculating. I could just watch the temperature on the kettle, when it drops I'd simply turn on the burner until it's back up where I want it. Eventually I'd probably switch to some sort of PID. Currently I have to take take the bag off, stir, and take a reading with my lab thermometer. Then I have to stir while adding heat, then stop to take a temp reading - I have to do this 2-3 times usually to get where I want without going over...so I end up being low for a lot longer than I like.
The other thought I had to fix my over attenuation is to simply switch from a 90 min mash to a 60 min mash OR stick with the 90 min mash, but mash a degree or two higher. I understand that the longer you mash, the more fermentable your wort is. I've found the gravity almost never changes from 60 to 90 minutes, but I often gain some gravity points (.001-.003) after mashout. Obviously these are simpler solutions - what are your thoughts?
The other advantage to a pump is that I could whirlpool post-boil. Currently I use hop bags, and would prefer not to (I don't think my utilization is that good with the hop bags when I've done side by side comparisons, they're also a pain to clean). After chilling I remove the bags and do a whirlpool with the spoon and let the trub settle for about 30 minutes - with whirlfloc. I leave a gallon of wort/trub in the kettle. I reuse yeast pretty frequently so I try not to transfer much trub (WLP002, which I use A LOT, is especially difficult to separate from the trub load). I don't get much of a cone at all, just a dense layer of trub. If I don't use hop bags I end up with a lot more hop material in the fermenter, would whirlpooling with a pump solve that issue even with the additional trub load from BIAB?
Thanks for any and all input.
Post #2 made 13 years ago
natept,
Temperature, time, pH, accurate readings and quality grain will do more to improve your beer than anything else. The fun for (me) is to get quality beer with the least amount of work, expense and time. Many of our brethren here on this forum like to use their talents in mechanical or technical brewing. Wherever your itch is, scratch it! If you want to pump it, do so!
The beauty of BIAB is it's simplicity. I am a technocrat by birth. I love implementing new things but at 63+ years of age I have found that simplicity works more often than not! I have bought lots of software to attest to the fact that talent beats leading edge software. I have software installed on my computer that has been barely used because I thought that I would be a better programer with them. I am not! I am still a old fat man with a drinking problem.
Sorry for the rant
but I had to clean my beer fridge and spilled the bucket of cleaning water all over the carpet. I dragged out a antique fan to dry it out and damn near sliced off my finger with the blades! It's hard to type with a bandage on your typing finger!
You may be guilty of "over thinking" natept? You said that you are happy with the beer you are brewing! That tells me that you are a normal BIAB brewer! We brew good beer! But a pump will not make you happy! I have had more than one friend that tried a pump with BIAB and they went back to "Mother Gravity"! I am sure a few of my fellow BIAB'ers will admit to trying the pump and failing. I am also sure that someone who found a way to make it work because they were stubborn will chime in too! I say "keep it simple"!I'm happy with the beer I'm brewing, but I've decided it may be time to tweak a few things. I am not really sure if it would be worth the trouble/expense - so I'm looking for some feedback.
Temperature, time, pH, accurate readings and quality grain will do more to improve your beer than anything else. The fun for (me) is to get quality beer with the least amount of work, expense and time. Many of our brethren here on this forum like to use their talents in mechanical or technical brewing. Wherever your itch is, scratch it! If you want to pump it, do so!
The beauty of BIAB is it's simplicity. I am a technocrat by birth. I love implementing new things but at 63+ years of age I have found that simplicity works more often than not! I have bought lots of software to attest to the fact that talent beats leading edge software. I have software installed on my computer that has been barely used because I thought that I would be a better programer with them. I am not! I am still a old fat man with a drinking problem.
Sorry for the rant
but I had to clean my beer fridge and spilled the bucket of cleaning water all over the carpet. I dragged out a antique fan to dry it out and damn near sliced off my finger with the blades! It's hard to type with a bandage on your typing finger!
Last edited by BobBrews on 13 Jun 2012, 00:41, edited 3 times in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
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Post #3 made 13 years ago
See this thread: http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1026
Pay special attention to post #53.
---Todd
Pay special attention to post #53.
---Todd
Last edited by thughes on 13 Jun 2012, 02:05, edited 3 times in total.
WWBBD?
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Post #4 made 13 years ago
You guys are probably right. I do usually follow the KISS methodology, so maybe I should ditch the pump idea for the time-being. I still wonder if I'd be more consistent with FG if I mashed higher or did a 60 minute mash instead of 90, only one way to find out for sure I guess. Anyone else not use hop bags/spider with hop pellets? Trying to figure out how to not transfer so much to the fermenter if I don't have a pump for whirlpooling.
Post #5 made 13 years ago
Hi natept
I built This and get clear wort after recycling about 4 Litres. Not tested on pellets yet but works great with leaf hops. I recon it should work with pellets though.
I built This and get clear wort after recycling about 4 Litres. Not tested on pellets yet but works great with leaf hops. I recon it should work with pellets though.
Last edited by Yeasty on 13 Jun 2012, 03:21, edited 3 times in total.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #6 made 13 years ago
No hop bags here and I use strictly pellet hops. No worries about trub either, I'm a no-chill brewer. I just dump the whole kettle in the cube at flameout, let the beer gods separate the wort from the trub/hops/break as it cools in the cube (a day, a week, a month, whatever...), and then siphon crystal clear wort into the fermentor when I'm ready to put the yeast to work.
---Todd
---Todd
WWBBD?
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Post #7 made 13 years ago
Plus one on thughes! This is what I do also. He said it in fewer words than me and nailed it!thughes wrote:No hop bags here and I use strictly pellet hops. No worries about trub either, I'm a no-chill brewer. I just dump the whole kettle in the cube at flameout, let the beer gods separate the wort from the trub/hops/break as it cools in the cube (a day, a week, a month, whatever...), and then siphon crystal clear wort into the fermentor when I'm ready to put the yeast to work.
---Todd
Last edited by BobBrews on 13 Jun 2012, 04:36, edited 3 times in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV
http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
-
- SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
-
Post #8 made 13 years ago
Yep, relax natept. Crusty in this thread has just gone from pumps and 3V to BIAB and really enjoyed it. More info in this thread on AHB.
It is really important that you realise you can't actually get the consistency you are looking for in brewing. The scale we brew at is far too small. You r numbers above are fine and well within the ballpark.
You may have seen me write before, "You can't trust the numbers on a single brew." And, you can't. Here's a few reasons why...
1. Measurement inaccuracies in temperature, grain weights, hop weights, gravity readings, volume readings etc, etc.
2. Grain specification variances. Grain specs vary on every batch of the same grain.
3. Efficiency varies depending on the gravity of the recipe - it is not a fixed number.
4. Your water changes every time you brew. Things like pH have a big affect on things like attenuation and efficiency.
These are just a few things that come immediately to mind. Numbers are to make sure you are not getting out of control, they are not meant to be attained exactly.
You'll find that good recipes will take some abuse and still come out very well. I'd spend my time looking for such recipes.
The other biggest enemy once you have a few brews under your belt is mild infections. The more equipment you add, the more likely these are to occur. It is nearly always the case that the more equipment you add, the harder the brew day becomes. Crusty talks about this in the second thread I linked above.
So, definitely don't become anal about numbers. Anyone who says they hit their numbers dead on every time is probably doing what we all do to some extent at some stage in our brewing careers - we invent a reason for why the number's don't match exactly or we re-interpret the figures in hindsight
.
Your numbers are absolutely fine so relax and enjoy your beer. The best instrument you have up your sleeve now is your mouth so start to trust that a little more now.
PP
It is really important that you realise you can't actually get the consistency you are looking for in brewing. The scale we brew at is far too small. You r numbers above are fine and well within the ballpark.
You may have seen me write before, "You can't trust the numbers on a single brew." And, you can't. Here's a few reasons why...
1. Measurement inaccuracies in temperature, grain weights, hop weights, gravity readings, volume readings etc, etc.
2. Grain specification variances. Grain specs vary on every batch of the same grain.
3. Efficiency varies depending on the gravity of the recipe - it is not a fixed number.
4. Your water changes every time you brew. Things like pH have a big affect on things like attenuation and efficiency.
These are just a few things that come immediately to mind. Numbers are to make sure you are not getting out of control, they are not meant to be attained exactly.
You'll find that good recipes will take some abuse and still come out very well. I'd spend my time looking for such recipes.
The other biggest enemy once you have a few brews under your belt is mild infections. The more equipment you add, the more likely these are to occur. It is nearly always the case that the more equipment you add, the harder the brew day becomes. Crusty talks about this in the second thread I linked above.
So, definitely don't become anal about numbers. Anyone who says they hit their numbers dead on every time is probably doing what we all do to some extent at some stage in our brewing careers - we invent a reason for why the number's don't match exactly or we re-interpret the figures in hindsight
.Your numbers are absolutely fine so relax and enjoy your beer. The best instrument you have up your sleeve now is your mouth so start to trust that a little more now.
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Jun 2012, 20:21, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #9 made 13 years ago
I love brew day since I went to BIAB. The beer is awesome! Simplicity has paved the way to relax and just have fun-- Darts, music, making mozzarella with the grand-kids, barbequing, drinking beer, all while brewing. That was impossible with my 3V system ...and the beer is awesome! Once in a while the numbers are way off ...and the beer is awesome!
Last edited by Ziggybrew on 14 Jun 2012, 09:31, edited 3 times in total.
Post #10 made 13 years ago
Hi natept.natept wrote:Good day all,
I've been BIAB brewing for about a year and a half and have done about 25 batches. I'm happy with the beer I'm brewing, but I've decided it may be time to tweak a few things. I am not really sure if it would be worth the trouble/expense - so I'm looking for some feedback. I'm a bit anal so it's important to me that I hit my numbers, both OG, FG and volume (consistency is real important to me). I have a 15 gallon kettle and do 5 gallon batches. I line my bag around a basket so I can direct fire without worrying about scorching the bag or grain.
I'm debating adding a pump to my setup so that I could recirculate the mash and whirlpool after the boil. I'm already getting about 81% mash efficiency and I don't want to go any higher, but my beers are consistently finishing lower then I intend (sometimes just .001, but I've had them go about .005 lower before) and I believe that's because I often lose a degree or two while mashing or because of the 90 minute mash leading to a highly fermentable wort (I check the temp and stir every 30 minutes and often have to add heat back). I think I can more easily control and maintain the heat if I could direct fire while recirculating. I could just watch the temperature on the kettle, when it drops I'd simply turn on the burner until it's back up where I want it. Eventually I'd probably switch to some sort of PID. Currently I have to take take the bag off, stir, and take a reading with my lab thermometer. Then I have to stir while adding heat, then stop to take a temp reading - I have to do this 2-3 times usually to get where I want without going over...so I end up being low for a lot longer than I like.
The other thought I had to fix my over attenuation is to simply switch from a 90 min mash to a 60 min mash OR stick with the 90 min mash, but mash a degree or two higher. I understand that the longer you mash, the more fermentable your wort is. I've found the gravity almost never changes from 60 to 90 minutes, but I often gain some gravity points (.001-.003) after mashout. Obviously these are simpler solutions - what are your thoughts?
The other advantage to a pump is that I could whirlpool post-boil. Currently I use hop bags, and would prefer not to (I don't think my utilization is that good with the hop bags when I've done side by side comparisons, they're also a pain to clean). After chilling I remove the bags and do a whirlpool with the spoon and let the trub settle for about 30 minutes - with whirlfloc. I leave a gallon of wort/trub in the kettle. I reuse yeast pretty frequently so I try not to transfer much trub (WLP002, which I use A LOT, is especially difficult to separate from the trub load). I don't get much of a cone at all, just a dense layer of trub. If I don't use hop bags I end up with a lot more hop material in the fermenter, would whirlpooling with a pump solve that issue even with the additional trub load from BIAB?
Thanks for any and all input.
You mentioned a couple of very interesting points in your first couple of sentences. You are happy with the beers you have been making & you are not sure whether it is worth the trouble or expense to try & tweak a seemingly great process, not forgetting you are hitting 81% efficiency. I have been fortunate enough to brew on three different systems & I now biab. My last brew rig cost me around the $3,000.00 mark to complete & it will not & did not make any improvements to my beer whatsoever. I found that the recirculation process through my PID controlled Rims system was making my beers lack something that my previous esky mash tun achieved. I am not sure what it is but the beers were never quite as good & I honestly believe a simple infusion & rest will produce a more malty beer than the recirculating system, I cannot tell you why, but this is what was happening to me. I got it into my head that I needed to do step mashes, protein rests & mash outs to get a better beer, this simply isn't so. Today's highly modified malts that we use do not require this process & a protein rest can be detrimental to certain malts. I find a simple single infusion & a scarification rest for 90mins ( biab ) & mash out as well, will get you some of the best beers you will ever drink ( recipe dependent of course ) A hop sock or fine mesh grain bag will certainly help with trub losses but this can simply be accounted for when using brewing software. I ended up with almost 2.5lt of trub with my first biab but I did squeeze the bag which probably contributed to the volume as well. Whirlpooling will depend on your set up & if you have hopscreens or fittings in the kettle, this will detract from the whirlpool efficiency. Using a pump is easier than doing a whirlpool by hand but $250.00 for a pump is a big outlay if you wanted to go that way. Yeast attenuation varies from yeast to yeast & also varies from different manufactures. Try using a lower attenuating yeast which will consume less sugars giving you a higher FG. If you seem to be getting a higher attenuation than you are aiming for you have a couple of options. Mash temperature is your first point of call. If the final gravity is too low, and all other factors such as fermentation temperature etc. were correct, then you may have mashed at a temperature that was too low and produced a wort that was more fermentable than you needed. Maybe mash a tad higher, 67-69degC. This will tend to give you a less fermentable wort & hopefully a higher FG getting you closer to your desired ABV. The second point of call is a yeast starter. If you are doing yeast starters, stop doing them. My beers attenuate more fully when doing yeast starters.
So my advice to you would be to simply continue on with your process which seems to be a good one & forget about trying to tweak the process. I think you may be very disappointed about spending all that extra money to over complicate your process & you may find yourself regretting that decision. Biab is a simple process & it doesn't need to be complicated. The 3V gadget guys often mention stuck sparges with recirculation which has happened to me several times & is something you want to avoid.
This is one hobby where simplicity is paramount & switching from my 3V to biab has saved me over an hour of clean up.
All the best.
Last edited by Crusty on 14 Jun 2012, 10:30, edited 4 times in total.
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Post #11 made 13 years ago
I got itchy fingers and decided to build a herms system run by an STC1000 controller, nothing fancy, but it does a good job of holding mash temps. I used to use a camping mat. But now I've got more to clean and have to run cleaning solution through the pump and lines and pull the whole thing apart and store it... I freaken hate cleaning, why have i done this to myself 
it is kinda nice to set the temp and walk away though.
it is kinda nice to set the temp and walk away though.
Post #12 made 13 years ago
We tend to make simple things more complicated & I am guilty of this myself. Cleaning is a pain & the amount of cleaning on my 3V set up was such a chore, I got to the point of wanting to give up brewing all together. I simply walk away from my urn after lagging it & have no further input. The rims system I had to watch like a hawk & sometimes everything was running smoothly & after 40mins, a stuck mash. I will never recirculate ever again, it's not necessary. Loosing a degree or two will have very little impact on your finished beer & the cost & cleanup of the extra gear for me was not worth the hassle.Aces high wrote:I got itchy fingers and decided to build a herms system run by an STC1000 controller, nothing fancy, but it does a good job of holding mash temps. I used to use a camping mat. But now I've got more to clean and have to run cleaning solution through the pump and lines and pull the whole thing apart and store it... I freaken hate cleaning, why have i done this to myself
it is kinda nice to set the temp and walk away though.
Last edited by Crusty on 14 Jun 2012, 15:26, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #13 made 13 years ago
I said I'm happy with my beers, but that doesn't mean I don't want to make them even better (in this case more consistent)! I have no trouble getting within .001-.002 of my target OG and for that I'm happy (up to about 1.075 OG at least, haven't done too many batches higher then that).
I was thinking a recirculating set up might keep me at my sach rest as I tend to 1-3 degrees throughout the course of a 90 minute mash which is making for a more fermentable wort making me miss my target FG. I always make starters and don't plan to stop with those, I'd adjust mash temp or time before messing with pitching rate (I'm a student of Jamil and he would cringe at not making starters to fix an attenuation problem).
I appreciate the feedback, it does not seem that it would be worth the trouble or expense to add a pump to my setup. I'll figure something out to strain the hop material without using hop bags. I think I will experiment a bit with my bitter since I've brewed that several times now. I usually mash at 152 and have an OG of 1.043 and FG at 1.012 (target). I've had it finish at 1.012 only when I had an OG of 1.044. Maybe it's silly to worry about .001, but I have to have something to contemplate when I'm not brewing! Has anyone noticed much of an attenuation difference in a 60 vs 90 minute mash?
I've been using WLP002 for my last several batches, here is some data showing me missing target (maybe I should adjust attenuation of 002 in Beersmith instead of messing with my process - just occurred to me):
OG FG Target Mash Temp ADF (Beersmith)
Special Bitter 1.043 1.010 1.012 152 76%
Mirror Pond 1.052 1.011 1.014 149 80%
ESB 1.060 1.012 1.015 148 79.10%
London Pride 1.045 1.012 1.012 148 72.50%
Special Bitter 1.044 1.012 1.012 152 71.90%
Mild 1.037 1.012 1.013 154 66.80%
IPA 1.070 1.010 1.016 145-155 84.90%
EDIT - I can't get this table to look good, it shows up fine when I paste it in, but once I hit submit it all jumbles together...
The IPA I mashed at 145 for 60 minutes, then 155 for 30 (Firestone Walker does this).
I was thinking a recirculating set up might keep me at my sach rest as I tend to 1-3 degrees throughout the course of a 90 minute mash which is making for a more fermentable wort making me miss my target FG. I always make starters and don't plan to stop with those, I'd adjust mash temp or time before messing with pitching rate (I'm a student of Jamil and he would cringe at not making starters to fix an attenuation problem).
I appreciate the feedback, it does not seem that it would be worth the trouble or expense to add a pump to my setup. I'll figure something out to strain the hop material without using hop bags. I think I will experiment a bit with my bitter since I've brewed that several times now. I usually mash at 152 and have an OG of 1.043 and FG at 1.012 (target). I've had it finish at 1.012 only when I had an OG of 1.044. Maybe it's silly to worry about .001, but I have to have something to contemplate when I'm not brewing! Has anyone noticed much of an attenuation difference in a 60 vs 90 minute mash?
I've been using WLP002 for my last several batches, here is some data showing me missing target (maybe I should adjust attenuation of 002 in Beersmith instead of messing with my process - just occurred to me):
OG FG Target Mash Temp ADF (Beersmith)
Special Bitter 1.043 1.010 1.012 152 76%
Mirror Pond 1.052 1.011 1.014 149 80%
ESB 1.060 1.012 1.015 148 79.10%
London Pride 1.045 1.012 1.012 148 72.50%
Special Bitter 1.044 1.012 1.012 152 71.90%
Mild 1.037 1.012 1.013 154 66.80%
IPA 1.070 1.010 1.016 145-155 84.90%
EDIT - I can't get this table to look good, it shows up fine when I paste it in, but once I hit submit it all jumbles together...
The IPA I mashed at 145 for 60 minutes, then 155 for 30 (Firestone Walker does this).
Post #14 made 13 years ago
Re-read the entire thread natept!!!! And then, read it again slowly and then, read it again and really study it.
These days we tend to skim over stuff and just see what we want to see. We all do it. But, sometimes having a beer and reading stuff slowly will really reward you.
There's lots of stuff above that you need to let sink in. For example, you've missed three really important things I can see.
1. There is nothing wrong with using a hop bag.
2. If your recipes range from 1.042 to 1.075 OG and you are using the same efficiency figures for these brews then you shouldn't be hitting your OG within 0.001 to 0.002.
3. You should never expect to hit an FG within a point. Within 5 points is fine and on some recipes, it will be even greater.
So, go and grab a beer, relax and have a good read. There's a wealth of quality information in the posts above. Don't let it escape you.
And, in saying all that, don't be worried if you do. Just make sure you come back later and say, "Ah! I get it now!"
Treat numbers as a tool not as a God
PP
These days we tend to skim over stuff and just see what we want to see. We all do it. But, sometimes having a beer and reading stuff slowly will really reward you.
There's lots of stuff above that you need to let sink in. For example, you've missed three really important things I can see.
1. There is nothing wrong with using a hop bag.
2. If your recipes range from 1.042 to 1.075 OG and you are using the same efficiency figures for these brews then you shouldn't be hitting your OG within 0.001 to 0.002.
3. You should never expect to hit an FG within a point. Within 5 points is fine and on some recipes, it will be even greater.
So, go and grab a beer, relax and have a good read. There's a wealth of quality information in the posts above. Don't let it escape you.
And, in saying all that, don't be worried if you do. Just make sure you come back later and say, "Ah! I get it now!"
Treat numbers as a tool not as a God
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 14 Jun 2012, 22:51, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #15 made 13 years ago
Glad you're seeing the light about the recirc BEFORE you've spent the money, I'm stubborn so I had to figure it out the hard way ($$).
Relax about the numbers and just enjoy the process.
---Todd
Relax about the numbers and just enjoy the process.
---Todd
WWBBD?
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Post #16 made 13 years ago
Pete - I did read it all! I respectfully disagree about hop bags, from experience (albeit using a small amount of hops), which is why I want to adjust that part of my process (adjusting may mean using bags and increasing the amount of hops to achieve the result I'm looking for - first I'm going to brew a batch with no hop bags with a medium amount of hops).
I should clarify that I do reduce my mash efficiency based on grist bill, 81% seems fairly static for beers where I've targeted about 1.035 to 1.055 OG (I reduce efficiency when I'm going higher). I was just trying to say I can hit my numbers within .001-.002 almost every time until I go above 1.075 - results are sporadic and I adjust with DME.
I hear what you're all saying about not being able to hit target OG every time, but when I'm consistently finishing low, obviously I need to tweak something.
I know I'm making good beer and I'm happy with the product I'm producing, however who doesn't strive to make the best beer they can possibly make (cheaply is always good too)? I think I can make better beer by tweaking some parts of my process and I plan to do that. I greatly appreciate the feedback I've received in this thread - this is a great community here with a ton of brewing experience.
I'm about to brew my bitter with NO hop bags (3 oz total)! I decided I don't want to tweak more than one thing per batch for obvious reasons. I still think I'll try to adjust the mash, either up a degree with 90 min mash or stay at my established mash temp and reduce to 60 minute next time I brew this.
I should clarify that I do reduce my mash efficiency based on grist bill, 81% seems fairly static for beers where I've targeted about 1.035 to 1.055 OG (I reduce efficiency when I'm going higher). I was just trying to say I can hit my numbers within .001-.002 almost every time until I go above 1.075 - results are sporadic and I adjust with DME.
I hear what you're all saying about not being able to hit target OG every time, but when I'm consistently finishing low, obviously I need to tweak something.
I know I'm making good beer and I'm happy with the product I'm producing, however who doesn't strive to make the best beer they can possibly make (cheaply is always good too)? I think I can make better beer by tweaking some parts of my process and I plan to do that. I greatly appreciate the feedback I've received in this thread - this is a great community here with a ton of brewing experience.
I'm about to brew my bitter with NO hop bags (3 oz total)! I decided I don't want to tweak more than one thing per batch for obvious reasons. I still think I'll try to adjust the mash, either up a degree with 90 min mash or stay at my established mash temp and reduce to 60 minute next time I brew this.
Last edited by natept on 15 Jun 2012, 03:03, edited 1 time in total.
Post #17 made 13 years ago
This is pretty interesting - I mostly use pellets, but also use leafs from time to time. Might have to give it a try.Yeasty wrote:Hi natept
I built This and get clear wort after recycling about 4 Litres. Not tested on pellets yet but works great with leaf hops. I recon it should work with pellets though.
Thanks
Last edited by natept on 15 Jun 2012, 02:59, edited 3 times in total.
Post #18 made 13 years ago
In regards to your Mash temp dropping, what sort of insullation do you have on your vessel? Maybe some more insullation would stop the drop in temp and get the result you want.
Cheers
Robbo
Cheers
Robbo
Post #19 made 13 years ago
Alright natept 
, it looks like you really want to go the extreme number route so here's a site/linkto help you get under way .
Just bear in mind that the experiments on that site are not definitve due to sample size but I think you'll find it interesting.
Have fun with your exploration
,
PP
, it looks like you really want to go the extreme number route so here's a site/linkto help you get under way .Just bear in mind that the experiments on that site are not definitve due to sample size but I think you'll find it interesting.
Have fun with your exploration
, PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 15 Jun 2012, 19:02, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #20 made 13 years ago
As Pat has mentioned, hitting your target FG every time is not going to happen, 3 points either way for me is quite common. I have done identical beers three times in succession, same mash schedule, same crush, same recipe, same everything & target OG was 1.011. First one came in @1.010, second one 1.012 & third one in @1.008, so expecting to get exactly the same is asking a bit much even though you are doing everything identical to the brew before. This is why Pat suggests doing a 5 brew test & this will allow you to hone in on the average. Biab is supposed to be simplicity at best & trying to mix 3V equipment into your biab set up is kind of wavering away from the traditional way that biab is supposed to be. Please don't get me wrong, I have no problem how you wish to brew but once you alter the basics, cracks will start to show & you will at some stage get to the point of either doing one or the other. My mash tun is my 40lt urn, it's also my boil kettle & my bag is my false bottom so to speak, simplicity at it's finest & the most enjoyable way I have ever brewed, it's fantastic & I wish I hadn't of spent all that extra money for nothing setting up my 3V system. I am not the only one either. There is a growing trend of 3V brewers swapping their mash tuns for bags & the guys I have spoken to, like myself, would never go back to 3V once they had experienced biab. A PID controlled recirculation system will involve quite a bit of electrical work & a housing to mount the PID, SSR & heatsink. A heat sink is essential for heat dissipation with the constant switching of the SSR that allows power to your element. What are you going to pump your mash water through so it can be PID controlled? You can either run a HERMS system or a Rims system. Both will require a housing for your element, a pot for HERMS or a stainless tube for your Rims, things are starting to get expensive. A pump is not cheap & suitable wort pumps are not self priming so are a pain in the butt to prime. You will also need silicone food grade tubing for the wort to travel through, not cheap either. So really to control a couple of degrees lost during your 90min scarification rest, you have just possibly outlaid $600.00 or so to control that temp loss & you may still find you will miss your target OG. With all due respect to Jamil, in your position, I would discontinue with your yeast starters as you are over attenuating & up your mash temp a tad. I would love for you to do a brew session following this advice & let us know your results. I think you may surprise yourself. I had a whirlpool port in the side of my boil kettle & I used it once & only once. Disconnecting hoses, swapping hoses & pumping from A to B was a mission in itself & I found not too much difference in the trub cone I was trying to achieve. I just spent an extra 10mins trying to get the trub into a central cone & I just omitted that step from then on in. Now I just turn the urn off now, lid on & walk away. Half an hour later I come back & everything has settled on the bottom. One quote I find all 3V brewers spruking about is clear wort into the boiler. I have found that yes, you can achieve crystal clear wort into the boiler from recirculating from the mash tun but then it gets stirred up with your sparge, rendering the clear wort theory out the window. My biab brew the other day was quite turbid into the kettle but after adding the flocculating agent 10mins from the end of the boil & letting it settle after the boil, the wort into the cube was crystal clear. I have never used any fining agents to my bottled beers & they are as crystal clear as can be so people worrying about clear wort into the boiler should worry no more, it makes no difference.
At the end of the day though, it's entirely up to you & if you have the funds to experiment, you may find some improvements to your brew. I honestly believe you won't & in the end you will be rather annoyed that you are now a little poorer & spend an extra 30-60mins on your brew day.
All the best.
Here was my 3V Rims system on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Huu3YSoCVdo
At the end of the day though, it's entirely up to you & if you have the funds to experiment, you may find some improvements to your brew. I honestly believe you won't & in the end you will be rather annoyed that you are now a little poorer & spend an extra 30-60mins on your brew day.
All the best.
Here was my 3V Rims system on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Huu3YSoCVdo
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Post #21 made 13 years ago
Thanks to this thread I'm for sure sold on not going the pump direction. I'm going to keep it simple (stupid). I did brew yesterday, hit my target OG on the nose. I didn't use hop bags (man is it nice not cleaning out the hop gunk after brewing!). I did whirlpool with my spoon and got a nice vortex going, then I walked away for an hour. When I transferred to the carboy through the valve there was very little trub, just a thin layer (less then 1/4"). There was actually a nice trub/hop cone even left in the kettle (I leave about 1.5 gallons wort/trub behind).
In response to Robbo: To insulate I put a brick on the lid, then a sleeping bag over the entire kettle secured with a bungee. I then put another blanket on top.
Thanks to all for the replies!
In response to Robbo: To insulate I put a brick on the lid, then a sleeping bag over the entire kettle secured with a bungee. I then put another blanket on top.
Thanks to all for the replies!
Post #22 made 13 years ago
Great news natept. I am pretty pedantic & anal about things myself & can fully understand you trying to achieve the best possible results. Keeping things simple is the best way to go & adding unnecessary equipment to your process just adds extra work & cleaning, more chances for an infection & less money in your pocket for no difference to your finished beers, it's simply not worth it, trust me, I've done just that. It sounds as though you are making some great beers already & maybe just resign to the fact that you are using your OG target as a guide, it's certainly not set in concrete, it does vary. One great thing about biab is that it throws what we are led to believe out the window. As an ex 3V brewer, who would of ever thought you could accept not having crystal clear wort into the boiler, no chilling your beer & getting high efficiency. Did I mention some people dumping the whole boiler into the cube, trub & all to ferment out an award winning beer. This way of brewing rocks.natept wrote:Thanks to this thread I'm for sure sold on not going the pump direction. I'm going to keep it simple (stupid). I did brew yesterday, hit my target OG on the nose. I didn't use hop bags (man is it nice not cleaning out the hop gunk after brewing!). I did whirlpool with my spoon and got a nice vortex going, then I walked away for an hour. When I transferred to the carboy through the valve there was very little trub, just a thin layer (less then 1/4"). There was actually a nice trub/hop cone even left in the kettle (I leave about 1.5 gallons wort/trub behind).
In response to Robbo: To insulate I put a brick on the lid, then a sleeping bag over the entire kettle secured with a bungee. I then put another blanket on top.
Thanks to all for the replies!
Last edited by Crusty on 16 Jun 2012, 06:38, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #23 made 13 years ago
I meant to say Crusty that was a really interesting comment you made earlier on about the quality of beer that is mashed at a perfectly maintained temperature. It could well be that allowing the mash to wander a few degrees does add some character that we don't know about??? (Think I wrote a ramble on this somewhere a few years back).
The good thing about BIAB is you can maintain the mash temp very well with the occassional stir and application of heat or you can let the temp wander down or even wander all around.
The good thing about BIAB is you can maintain the mash temp very well with the occassional stir and application of heat or you can let the temp wander down or even wander all around
.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 16 Jun 2012, 08:00, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #24 made 13 years ago
A PID will maintain your set temp pretty well but it's not totally without it's flaws. Mine would wander a degree either side of my set point so if doing a 66deg mash, it would rise to 67 & go as low as 65 giving you the 66deg average. It would regain the set point very quickly though & was pretty accurate. The PID also needs a reasonable flow rate through the rims tube or herms coil as to avoid overshooting your set point. The trouble with this is too fast a flow & you will get a stuck sparge, too slow & wort overshoot, it's a little bit of mucking around, certainly not set & forget & walk away as some are led to believe. The other problem with recirculating is your recipe. Some grain, ie: wheat, is notorious for excess flour & mixed this with the pump constantly sucking down on the grain bed & eventually it will probably stick & again a stuck sparge. I tried a grist to water ratio of 3.5l/kg instead of my usual 2.75l/kg with my old igloo cooler mash tun & still encountered problems. The resulting beers too lacked something my old system produced. They were never quite as malty, head retention was not as good nor lacing & in the end I was looking for a simpler alternative & was heading back to my igloo cooler & spoke in length to Beachbum. I am so glad I did, I am now brewing on a system that is so simple & it saves me so much time. I absolutely love it.PistolPatch wrote:I meant to say Crusty that was a really interesting comment you made earlier on about the quality of beer that is mashed at a perfectly maintained temperature. It could well be that allowing the mash to wander a few degrees does add some character that we don't know about??? (Think I wrote a ramble on this somewhere a few years back).
The good thing about BIAB is you can maintain the mash temp very well with the occassional stir and application of heat or you can let the temp wander down or even wander all around
Last edited by Crusty on 16 Jun 2012, 14:15, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #25 made 13 years ago
Haven't posted in a while here - thought I'd let you all know that I'm still happily making beer with just a kettle and a bag! I'm so glad you all talked me out of walking down that path I was headed...I've brewed a lot lately (before last week I had brewed 7 batches in 6 weeks) and have made some fantastic beers - I can't help but think I'd still be dialing things in had I bought a pump and a controller and everything.
My over-attenuation issues have gone away by both adjusting mash temp up or shortening mash to 60 mins (played with both and usually opt for the 60 min mash now). It's nice to know I can really dry something out with a 90 minute mash if I want to really push attenuation far. I quit using hop bags and will never look back, just requires a bit of patience post boil and a good old cold crash before kegging.
Cheers to you all!
My over-attenuation issues have gone away by both adjusting mash temp up or shortening mash to 60 mins (played with both and usually opt for the 60 min mash now). It's nice to know I can really dry something out with a 90 minute mash if I want to really push attenuation far. I quit using hop bags and will never look back, just requires a bit of patience post boil and a good old cold crash before kegging.
Cheers to you all!
