PP,

As a variant on the old "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." I'd like to propose:

Those who can, brew. Those who can't, type.

I can't often get the 5 hours it takes me for a brew day (especially while sitting at work), but I can find 5 minutes to type about brewing. I fear that I've dragged us down to the level of discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. This discussion is interesting from a theoretical point of view for understanding what is going on during the brewing process, but from a practical point of view probably doesn't matter than much for a homebrewer.

I suspect that the required data collection in a relatively uncontrolled environment is impossible. There are so many variables in a homebrew setup that teasing out a difference of a couple of gravity points from the noise of all the other measurements is not something I'd expect to pull off. Maybe in a commercial brewhouse with better control over and measurement of all the variables, but not at home.

It's been an interesting discussion, though, and I've learned a bit, too. I had never really thought about the difference between proteins, etc., as part of the wort solution vs. as part of a hot break precipitate.

Those who can, brew. Those who can't, type.

PP.
+1 +1 +1 +1

A wise man once said "Knowing one's faults is half their cure" or something like that? I guess I am now a wise man either!!!

Good Day, I was asked a while ago, "If Beer is Beer, Why are there so many numbers???" I responded "we can use them now, 300 years ago they could not, No Computers"

So, we now work more on Numbers, Than on brewing. Let's go!

Wait a minute, didn't the ancient Sumerians (who were among the first brewers) also invent the first system of numbers and counting? Coincidence? Hmmmm........

Good Day, THEY DID, but no thermometers, hyrdometers, hops, or "real" yeast. So, no numbers to collect!

Good point. Just as well, converting from ancient Sumerian to Imperial measurement is probably a bit more complicated then converting from metric (and certainly would slow down the development of BIABicus even further).

thughes wrote:Wait a minute, didn't the ancient Sumerians (who were among the first brewers) also invent the first system of numbers and counting? Coincidence? Hmmmm........

BobBrews wrote:

Those who can, brew. Those who can't, type.

PP.
+1 +1 +1 +1

Bob, just because I have been busy working on the new calculator doesn't mean I don't have my eye on you .

Here's some more typing for you (And I have mentioned you several times so you better read it )

.........

I've just finished an 18 hour stint on 'numbers' and as Kostass and Sig will tell you, this is not an extraordinary thing. Stux and ianh would have also done the same.

I think Kostass, Sig, stux, ianh and I all have two hobbies. One is brewing great beer and the other is numbers. My third hobby, which I know at least two of the above guys, also think is extremely important, is putting the whole numbers thing into an easy format.

Why do we think it is important?

Well, firstly, I think it is very hard for new brewers starting out to even be given a good diving off point. A huge part of me would like to say to new brewers, "Don't look at any software etc, just throw 5kg of grain into 35 L of water and chuck some hops in as well every now and then."

Some brewers, like BobBrews, would jump into those instructions with total enthusiasm and learn from the experience. Like some cooks, these brewers have an intuitive knack for what is important, what's right and what is wrong.

Most new brewers though would not find that advice of any help . They'd be like me and would need to be given some 'crutches' to get us walking.

I think good numbers presented in the right manner (as in accompanied with quality information) can give some brewers a chance to walk that wouldn't do otherwise and, for those already walking, a chance to speed up their pace.

"Speed up their pace to what?"

To being relaxed about brewing, like BobBrews, and knowing that there are really only a few numbers to get right to get a good beer.

Trying to provide these simple 'crutches' is massively complex. It's certainly the hardest 'turning grey into black and white' project I have ever worked on and I've done a few.

So, don't 'diss' the numbers guys I mentioned above (that includes me Bob ). Seriously though, the work they do I think helps/will help a lot of brewers in the future.

Intuitive brewers, like yourself Bob, have a serious role to play here. When you discover something excellent, then next time you brew that beer, take some measurements so we can copy it! Nearly all my good recipes I have stolen from intuitive brewers but what a job to get the details!!! (I have to ask a thousand questions like, "What exactly do you mean by a handful of this?" ).

And we also need more brewers like smyranquince, asking great questions as he posed in the original post of this thread. Not many brewers, let alone new ones, question the numbers they see in software. They should. About 40% of the 18 hours I spent today was on just making sure that some major software had actually stuffed up that badly.

Need I say more? ,
PP

It took you long enough to find my shot PP I was getting worried.

So, don't 'diss' the numbers guys I mentioned above (that includes me Bob ). Seriously though, the work they do I think helps/will help a lot of brewers in the future.

Those who can do numbers, do work. Those who can't do numbers, drink beer and reap the rewards the numbers guys create.

The work you numbers guys do (you know who you are) is the rock we brew on. Steady, sure and unshakeable. I don't 'diss" them I applaud them.

I have brewed many quality brews that I have received a few awards for. I do replicate (most) of them from my sketchy mash stained notes. However, I don't always get them perfectly reproduced because I fail at numbers and the natural variances of brewing. If I were better at math (my fault) maybe I would do a better job at replication.

I am waiting (stealthily) in the background but I will pounce on the fruit of your labor as soon as it appears. Sadly I probably won't be able to figure it out but, I want it all the same!

I saw the shot as soon as you posted it but couldn't think of anything funny to post back .

Lambert's been taking some shots at me as well about my lack of tolerance for wheat beers. I haven't thought of a funny reply to him either. What I am going to do though is make sure that the new calculator rejects any recipe with more than 5% wheat .

Anyway, I knew you were just taking a shot. I hope there will be some fruits for you to pounce upon soon. Got another really hard bit finalised today, colour, but that's a two-edged sword for me. I'm happy that our formula doesn't have the same mistakes as some other major software but I'm also unhappy as colour takes up valuable space (and appears as important) on the sheet.

Might move that... More thinking .

I better go and write up some notes on colour for whoever writes the 'Help'. The 'software' is the easy bit I reckon. The help is going to require a small book. How it all 'looks' on a first glance is going to be harder again. We're trying to find a balance between the new user saying, "Cool! That's easy!" and doing everything else other software does while using a spreadsheet that any user can use whether they have Excel or not . (I can't tell you hard this is - having to use a spreadsheet, and without macros, is so limiting.)

Hopefully this intermediary step will make it easier for the real programmers like Kostass. And, at least we can get the help and forum layout done now.

Sorry Bob, I'm thinking aloud. Whoever said I write too much? .


PP

Got another really hard bit finalized today, colour, but that's a two-edged sword for me. I'm happy that our formula doesn't have the same mistakes as some other major software but I'm also unhappy as colour takes up valuable space (and appears as important) on the sheet.

PP,
Color-colour sucks! One of my first websites taught me a lot about colour perception! A couple of women working at a beer distributor (beer of course) were constantly complaining and having me change the various colors of the website. They drove me to drink! OK, maybe I was on the drive already? Anyway, I didn't realize that every PC/MAC's monitor was adjusted differently. When I went around to these women to give a "hands on" demonstration. (Oh, that sounds bad ) I saw that their monitors were way off in colour. No wonder I couldn't get it right. One gals red was another gals pink. One was blue and the other looked purple! My monitor matched the company's printed handout perfectly but that's not what others saw!

Long story short. (to late!) There is no way to match colors between PC's unless the monitors are similarly calibrated. Just food for thought when dealing with Color-colour.

BobBrews wrote:...They drove me to drink! OK, maybe I was on the drive already?

This thing will only have colour numbers as displaying colours would be a bit hard for the sheet. You are so right in the above. I think its probably something that isn't realised by a lot of people.

Excuse my long winding down posts last night. Hope we haven't taken smyrna's thread too off-topic .


PP

Oh, no! My thread! Where did it go!

smyrnaquince,

Hey, You weren't doing much with it so we stole it! Maybe the forum should start a "Thread, lost and found"?

I don't see the need for color at all. Especially considering the number of men that have some color blindness and the great variance in monitors.

Waste of time in my opinion.

rockbotton,

Agreed! I have over-boiled wort's because of one reason or another most of the time! The color change from that negates everything else done perfectly up to then. Mash lengths, age of grain, type of grain, adjuncts quality, grain substitution from shortages of needed grains. All add up to one thing, inconsistent and variable readings. If I can't taste it I don't worry about. I have never had anyone turn my beer down because the color wasn't up to style. I have had other reasons like "You brewed it with lake water"??

smyrnaquince wrote:Oh, no! My thread! Where did it go!

You love it Dave .

smyrna is a good sport and will find whatever we talk about here interesting. And, it is in the intermediate forum . So, while we all wait until we can find a way of collecting figures on the original question, why not talk about colour? (I love Bob's idea, "Thread, lost and found." )

All I'll say is that the only figures that home brewers can even hope to measure or calculate are volumes and gravities and even with these you have lots of room for error.

When it comes down to bitterness or colour, it all gets very blurry. The different ways of estimating IBUs is one of my faves