Display posts from previous
Sort by

adding pump for circulation and whirlpool

Post #1 made 15 years ago
by kristfin
i allready have a very good BIAB electric setup, but one always can improve.
i've been thinking about adding circulation so i can do step mashes in the pot.

the initial version would have a false bottom which the bag would sit on, about 8cm from the bottom. the pot is 37 cm in diameter. next step would be to create an inner mashing pot, which i could raise above the water surface and add water and sparge in it for a full boil.

whirlpooling is also something i would like to be able to do, to leave as much as possible in the pot, since i'm always reusing east.

this is the first version of the idea, a schematic. it would be great to get some comments, feedback before i start building. i have most if not all of the components. i would like this to be a single unit on wheels with a single water in and a water out.
pump_schema.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by kristfin on 31 Dec 2010, 20:33, edited 5 times in total.

Post #2 made 15 years ago
by hashie
Hi Kristfin, I'm just trying to get my head around your schematic.

Are you going to do 3 vessel BIAB? That's what it looks like, but I can't see the need for the plastic bucket.

Have you considered simply having the pump recirculate and whirlpool your boiler (1 pot)? This to me would seem much simpler.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #3 made 15 years ago
by kristfin
just a single vessel. get all the pros of biab and herms and rims in a pretty simple apparatus.
perhaps the schematic is not that good.

the plastic bucket is the fermenter.

i will get the whirlpool from the counterflow chiller, so i will end with the fully cooled wirth in the boiler.
when i drain the wirt into the fermenter it will be directly from the boiler, not through the cfc.

during the mash, i will circulate the through valve 6.

after the boil, i will send the wirth through valve 7 into the cfc and into the boiler through valve 9 to whirlpool.

once the wirth is cooled down, i will drain it to the fermenter through valve 9.

and a happy new year to all my fellow brewers. cheers.

i served irish red ale with my turkey, followed by ipa and my orval clone after dinner.

Post #4 made 15 years ago
by hashie
That makes sense now, thanks for the clarification. It sounds like a top idea and I'm sure it will work a treat.

Snap on the Irish Red, I'm drinking one right now :)
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #5 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
[Please excuse such a long post kristfin :roll:. I've used your question as an excuse to ramble a bit after a tedious day but have my fingers crossed that my ramble has some value for you.]

All the best to you as well kristfin. Looks as though you made yourself some tasty beers to bring in the new year :peace:

I haven't had a chance to get on here for a few days but loved reading your original post here :). I really enjoy seeing brewers think through things and come up with crafty plans.

One word of warning though, any time you think about making your system more complex, in the hope it will make things simpler, think twice. Often these things end up being the opposite of what we envision - more time-consuming and/or actually impractical. I have a room full of parts from futile projects to prove this - lol!!!

For example, a step mash can easily be done with a full-volume BIAB. If you have a pulley system, I actually can't see an easier way. A pump sounds easy and great but there are a lot of "hidden" costs. (I actually had a pump and gave it away :o.) Cleaning and maintaining extra equipment will often exceed many-times any manual saving you make, if there actually does end up being a saving. I must say that I have never seen any brew that involves a pump go smoothly or save time, let alone effort, but I certainly like the thinking that goes into these systems. I would like to see them work and be easy as I enjoy mucking around with these type of things.

So, bear all this in mind before you actually go beyond the planning stage. Don't do what I used to do, which was to buy parts as you develop your plan. That is unless you want a room full of weird parts like I do ;).

Planning is a heap of fun though so let's get back to that!...
kristfin wrote:i will get the whirlpool from the counterflow chiller, so i will end with the fully cooled wirth in the boiler.
when i drain the wirt into the fermenter it will be directly from the boiler, not through the cfc.
I couldn't work this bit out but I am probably missing something obvious???

The rest seems pretty clear.

Some more things to think on are...

1. What sort of fittings will you use?
2. If you are thinking about using one hose to do several jobs, does it need to be cleaned and sanitised between some uses, eg mash versus post-boil? If so, how can you do this if you are using a quick connect/disconnect system? Do you need a second pump hooked up to a cleaner and then sanitiser? Or, do you need more transfer hoses?
3. Once the brew is completed, how will you clean and sanitise all the "moving," parts? This is probably the hardest but most important thing to plan.

A few years back, I wrote a check-list for BIABrewers. Without looking it up, I think it had about 60 steps. A part of me is embarrassed now that I wrote such a detailed check-list but a part of me is not, as every step requires some sort of activity or thought.

Hold on, I'll throw a copy up here, just out of interest...
BIAB_Checklist___Black_Beer.xls
Some of the stuff in that checklist I don't do anymore and there is probably more that could have been added. I no longer use a checklist as the process is now second nature to me. But, I did use that checklist for a considerable time and it helped.

I think when contemplating a more complex system, you need to write a checklist as it forces you to visualise each action and identify most of the pitfalls. This is important and quite hard...

We brewers think a lot better than appliance manufactures though I reckon :roll:. Today, I spent all day solving a problem that would have been avoided if someone had thought for about two seconds - lol! My work is to solve problems in the kitchen and bathroom game. It's not easy at the best of times but at this time of year, when making a new cupboard or sourcing a new appliance will take several weeks, it's even more tedious and frustrating :). If I can solve the problem, in some way, without the above, it takes hours of thought and the fiddliest of tools and physical postures to get it to work.

Name an appliance I work with and I can straight away tell you the most obvious design error that will cause major problems for either a cabinet maker, an installer, a plumber or an electrician.

Appliance manufacturers don't have to clean up their mess. If it looks good it will sell.

We brewers do have to live with what we create and I think clever brewing equipment is a lot harder to design and involves a lot more decisions than whether a kitchen hotplate gas inlet should be put towards a back corner of a unit rather than in the centre - today's problem :roll:

Hope my atrociously long ramble helps a bit kristfin even though it is aimed at finding the pitfalls rather than the positives.

I think what you are aiming for is great. I don't know if, in reality, it will be a better solution than anything non-mechanised but what I do know is that if you come up with a successful design, it will either come from a sudden inspiration (which in hindsight will seem obvious) or from a lot of careful thought. History shows that the latter seems to bring about the former :smoke:.

Keep up the great thinking kristfin. Posts like yours make me think, "fresh," so...

Thanks mate,
PP
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 01 Jan 2011, 23:31, edited 5 times in total.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia

Post #6 made 15 years ago
by kristfin
thanks for the post pistol, your long post justifies a longer explaination from me :

i've been evolving my brewing equipment and beers for nearly two years now.

i started with a 3 vessel system. 30 liter keg for boiling, 30liter plastic bucket for hlt and an igloo cooler. did my first 36 batches with it. worked great.

what was bothering me, was the time it took. all in all, some 7 hours per batch, which inspired me to come up with something better. so i opted for automization next.

created a 3 tier system, with a 90 liter hlt, 50 liter mashtun and a 50 liter boiler. used pids to control the temperature. did one dry run. it worked fine. but i did forsee that it would double my batch sizes, but it would not shorten my brewday, hence scrapped the system before i brewed any beer in it.

enter biab. since i had allready two boilers, 90 and 50 liters i decided to try it out. created a bag, used my 50 liter boiler. brewed a fine apa in less than 4 hours. my brewhouse efficiency went from 75% to 80%. win win.

at the same time as my equipments have been progressing, i claim that my beers are getting better too. understanding mashing, temperatures and grain, water treatment etc.

in a recent brew, i tried for the first time to whirlpool. before i started chilling with my immersion chiller, i used a power drill and started a whirlpool with a sanitized stirrer. i then chilled down the wirth, which took some 10-20 minutes. but what a difference. it was almost perfectly clear when i drained it into the carboy. no hot break, cold break, hop materieal or nothing. i just got some extra 2-3 liters of fine beer. the biggest improvement though, is in yeast reusing. it comes so much cleaner out of the fermenter if the wirth going into it is void of any extra material.

after that discovery i decided that whirlpooling is something that i needed to add to my process. of course i could do as jamil recommended, and adding a whirlpool to my immersion chiller and use a pump.

i however have been worrying about my postboil procedures. i want to be able to chill down the wirth from boiling, in a closed environment. not with an open pot and a ic.

that said, i had a few beers and ordered a pump from ebay (used iwaki md20 for $3) :)

converting my current system to the one i'm proposing, is not that much of a task. i need a handfull of valves, i have most of the other fittings and a pump. i need to add couple of inlets to my boiler, for the whirlpooling and a sight glass.

i am fully aware of the fact that i'm building a better mousetrap. i have a fine system right now, but since this is my hobby, improving it is a big part of that.

you mention sanitation could be a problem. i don't see that.

when i start a brew session, i assume that the system is clean, not sterile.

i start by running water into the boiler, close all the valves, raise the temp to 72°c and dough in the grain.

optionally start a circulation during the mash. if the mashing procedure is just simple infusion it should not be needed, the pot is very well insulated.

before the end of the boil, i put a lid on the pot, run the boiling wirth through the cfc and through all pipes that i need to sanitize. stop the boil, start the whirlpooling through cfc.

once the wirth is cool enough, put it into the fermenter, shake or infuse with o2.

cleaning. start by flushing the system with clean water. then with cleaner and finally flush it water and possibly iodophor or star san. seal it until next time.

Post #7 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
What a great post! Thanks for another great read kf. Must have taken some time to write too!

Looks like you have the mousetrap thing well under control - good on ya :peace: (So, ignore my last essay please - lol)

I'm still not getting the whirlpool stuff though. I mainly use pellet hops and have only once, out of about 4 attempts, got a decent whirlpool and I am pretty sure that brew involved flowers :).

I think what I am wondering is how a CFC (or even an immersion chiller) will create a whirlpool seeing as they are both "closed" systems? What am I not seeing here??? (Hope it is not totally obvious to everyone else :)).

Looking forward to your next post kf!
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia

Post #8 made 15 years ago
by kristfin
here is a good article on whirlpooling http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Whirlpooling" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the whirl pooling has nothing to do with cfc. but it is a great way to achieve both, whirlpool and chilling at the same time. on top of that i manage to do both with the pot closed and in my opinion that is more sanitary than using ic and an open pot.

ic can be extended to whirlpool, http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, but i want nevertheless to use a cfc.

i will do the whirlpool by pulling the wirth out of the pot, through the pump, through the cfc and back into the pot, where i will have a pipe, close to the bottom and the side of the pot.
whirlpool.jpg
on the topic of sanitation, my biggest problem is with a sight glass. i don't see how i can have one without having to dismantle it and clean between boils.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by kristfin on 02 Jan 2011, 05:59, edited 5 times in total.

Post #9 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
Sorry for my slow reply kristfin. I have been working my way backwards through threads instead of forwards which is probably what I should do if I knew how :).

I get most of what you are saying which is great (you being in Iceland and me being in Australia :)) I have understood everything except your second last sentence but I fear I won't completely see what you are saying without pictures :scratch:.

Glad you mentioned the sight glass sanitisation problem. I never thought of that and was about to employ a sight glass to, "cover up," a previous error of mine which was putting a hole in my kettle for a tap/spigot - lol! Very interesting point :think:.

Thanks kristfin!
PP
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia

Post #11 made 14 years ago
by kristfin
thought i should follow up with some pictures, now that i've finally had the time to set it up:

here is the mashing. my amarillo pale was supposed to be mashed at 65-66 (65,5 to be specific)
during the circulation, the temperature difference between the middle of the pot and in the side of the pot was 0.1-0.2 with my thermometer, which is a huge difference from my 1-3 degrees difference without circulation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBND4M2Roxc

here is the whirlpool and cfc.
i forgot to add the whirlfloc tablet and i found a two inch tear in the bag, so the liquid was not as clean as i'm used to. i think that i'm not getting my regular "cone" in the middle because there was so much material due to the bag ripping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPkoqvHZYxE

i was expecting a 80% utilization. preboil i got 1044 instead of expected 1049. after 45 minutes of boil it was 1053. OG was 1059, but since there was so much material in the pot, i had to leave more than i'm used to, so i ended up with 23 liters in the fermenter.

Post #12 made 14 years ago
by shibolet
great videos.
one the one had I've been thinking about circulating through the mash myself. on the other hand, it's makes the BIAB more complicated than it was ever intended to be.
question: don't you loose heat while calculating the mash liquid? i didn't see any heat source compensation.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:

Post #13 made 14 years ago
by kristfin
shibolet wrote:great videos.
one the one had I've been thinking about circulating through the mash myself. on the other hand, it's makes the BIAB more complicated than it was ever intended to be.
question: don't you loose heat while calculating the mash liquid? i didn't see any heat source compensation.
don't know exactly what u mean. i measure the amount of mash liquid, before i add the grains. the false bottom keeps the bag away from the element
Last edited by kristfin on 09 Feb 2011, 05:02, edited 5 times in total.

Post #15 made 14 years ago
by shibolet
kristfin wrote: don't know exactly what u mean. i measure the amount of mash liquid, before i add the grains. the false bottom keeps the bag away from the element
kristfin,
i mean that if your pumping the hot wort out of the mash pot through some pipes and than back to the top of the grain,
on the one hand the mash will have a uniform heat but on the other hand you should be loosing heat in the process (as apposed to just leaving the mash still and insulated).
Last edited by shibolet on 09 Feb 2011, 18:49, edited 5 times in total.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:

Post #16 made 14 years ago
by kristfin
during the circulation the heat difference between different spots witin the pot during circulation, is less than 0.2°C. but when i had the pot insulated and just let it sit, the temperature difference was 1-3°C within the pot.

for regular biab this is a true overkill :) this is just my hobby. i'm now working on a 90 liter system which will have an inner mashing pot (similar to braumeister) which allows me to do sparging as well.

Post #17 made 14 years ago
by motzingg
this is an awesome setup. basically the perfect balance of control and simplicity. no unnecessary transferring from one thing to the other, and a bare minimum of parts

great work, i hope to copy something similar to this.

is your in-tank heater stainless? does it matter?

Post #19 made 14 years ago
by Coppersmith
kristfin wrote:i allready have a very good BIAB electric setup, but one always can improve.
i've been thinking about adding circulation so i can do step mashes in the pot.

the initial version would have a false bottom which the bag would sit on, about 8cm from the bottom. the pot is 37 cm in diameter. next step would be to create an inner mashing pot, which i could raise above the water surface and add water and sparge in it for a full boil.

whirlpooling is also something i would like to be able to do, to leave as much as possible in the pot, since i'm always reusing east.

this is the first version of the idea, a schematic. it would be great to get some comments, feedback before i start building. i have most if not all of the components. i would like this to be a single unit on wheels with a single water in and a water out.
pump_schema.jpg
Here is a couple pics of my gas fired Rims BIAB setup Cheers
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Coppersmith on 01 Mar 2011, 16:54, edited 5 times in total.

Post #21 made 14 years ago
by Coppersmith
If you do go RIMS stick with an electric setup it is much cheaper to run.

I heat my strike water in my 20lt urn to 98C then add to the kettle and top up the volume with mains water.

This leaves me generally 10C short of the required temp. I then use an immersion element to bring it up to the strike temp, mix in my grains and then recirc using my March pump and the temp is controller by the gas burner, gas solenoid and PID controller.

The reason I initially use the the urn is because the first part of my process is to give my pump, heat exchanger, kettle, valves and pipework a sanitizing (acid based) wash.

During the mash I heat my sparge water to 78C, generally need 10lts of sparge water to get a pre boil volume of 40Lt's.

During the boil I heat 20Lt's of water to 70C for caustic wash at the end, as part of my clean up regime.

As a general rule I do a 40lt X 90min boil and 27Lt's into the fermenter.

I use Beersmith set at 70% efficiency to calculate my recipes and always hit my numbers.

Cheers
PS The extra pump that you can see in the pics is for my bottle washer, but that is a story for another day
Post Reply

Return to “BIAB Automation”

Brewers Online

Brewers browsing this forum: No members and 19 guests