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BIAB #1 B$%^&*&!!!!!

Post #1 made 14 years ago
by Beer O'Clock
Right !! This was going to be a first BIAB Brewday extravaganza. I have taken loads of photos and have taken notes all the way through the process.

However, it's all gone a bit Pete Tong !!!
None of the hydrometer readings make sense. Let me start from the beginning and talk you helpfull individuals through my day.

0800: Boiler, with 32 litres of Camden treated water, switched on

0920: Doughed in 4250g of pale and 30g of Black (no dough balls) @ 70degC. Temp dropped to 67degC (target). Wrapped in bubble Wrap and then double quilt (duvee).

1050: Unwrapped and drained voile bag, giving a good squeeze. Temp had dropped to 65degC. Hydro reading taken 1030 (temp corrected). Boiler turned up.

1140: Steady boil achieved. Hops in.

1210: Second Hop addition.

1255: Final Hop addition, 1tsp Protofloc and chiller in.

1310: Boiler off. Chiller on.

1400: Hydro reading @ 26degC 1022 ?????????

1401: Much swearing and cursing.

1415: Into FV filtered through voile. Only 21 litres of wort ? Very pale in colour. Tasted very bitter with little/no background sweetness. Suspecting that insufficient conversion has taken place.

1530: OG 1022 @ 24degC. Pitched SO4.

1531: Fingers now crossed.

I realise that I should have had the malt ground a bit finer, but would it make THAT much difference ?

I would appreciate it if somebody could look over the log and point me in the right direction.
[center]Royalty ? I like the show but can't stand the actors.[/center]

Post #2 made 14 years ago
by argon5000
Beer O'Clock wrote:Right !! This was going to be a first BIAB Brewday extravaganza. I have taken loads of photos and have taken notes all the way through the process.

However, it's all gone a bit Pete Tong !!!
None of the hydrometer readings make sense. Let me start from the beginning and talk you helpfull individuals through my day.

0800: Boiler, with 32 litres of Camden treated water, switched on

0920: Doughed in 4250g of pale and 30g of Black (no dough balls) @ 70degC. Temp dropped to 67degC (target). Wrapped in bubble Wrap and then double quilt (duvee).

1050: Unwrapped and drained voile bag, giving a good squeeze. Temp had dropped to 65degC. Hydro reading taken 1030 (temp corrected). Boiler turned up.

1140: Steady boil achieved. Hops in.

1210: Second Hop addition.

1255: Final Hop addition, 1tsp Protofloc and chiller in.

1310: Boiler off. Chiller on.

1400: Hydro reading @ 26degC 1022 ?????????

1401: Much swearing and cursing.

1415: Into FV filtered through voile. Only 21 litres of wort ? Very pale in colour. Tasted very bitter with little/no background sweetness. Suspecting that insufficient conversion has taken place.

1530: OG 1022 @ 24degC. Pitched SO4.

1531: Fingers now crossed.

I realise that I should have had the malt ground a bit finer, but would it make THAT much difference ?

I would appreciate it if somebody could look over the log and point me in the right direction.
Firstly what volume were you left with at the start of the boil??... assuming you have 21L at end of boil you'd have about 24-25L at start? If you had this volume you'd have 60% efficiency... not great

Assuming a typical 75% efficiency, your readings should have come out something like this;

Vol into boiler 24 - 25L @ 1.038 (temp adjusted)
Vol into fermenter 21 @ 1.044 (temp adjusted)

So you could have a hydro problem, cause 70 - 75% is fairly typical. So i'd say your hydrometer is either wrong or being read incorrectly
Last edited by argon5000 on 23 Feb 2011, 07:07, edited 5 times in total.

Post #3 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
That's not much fun having that happen on your first brew BOC :angry:. If it's any consolation, we all get a disaster from time to time.

I think there are several possibilities...

1. Incorrectly weighed grain bill: This is not uncommon and it's not easy to pick up especially on a first brew. (Without knowing the recipe, off the top of my head, I think you probably could have done with some more grain as well - more like 5 kg.) Find a way to check your grain bill weight on the next brew.

2. Dodgy Thermometer: This can really stuff up conversions so try and have a few thermometers so as you can check they agree with each other at mash temps.

3. Bag too small: If your bag constricts the grain, this will lower conversion as well. Make sure the bag lines your kettle.

4. Dodgy hydrometer: I see argon has just mentioned this above.

5. Grain crush: This isn't that important. Even a poor crush will work quite well as long as the grains are at least not whole!

Anyway, for this brew, see if you can get your hands on some extract sooner rather than later and top the bugger up. I think you'll still get a nice beer.

It looks as though you did the whole procedure well BOC so good on you :champ:. I personally would have done more swearing though ;).

PP
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Post #4 made 14 years ago
by BrickBrewHaus
PistolPatch wrote:That's not much fun having that happen on your first brew BOC :angry:. If it's any consolation, we all get a disaster from time to time.

I think there are several possibilities...

1. Incorrectly weighed grain bill: This is not uncommon and it's not easy to pick up especially on a first brew. (Without knowing the recipe, off the top of my head, I think you probably could have done with some more grain as well - more like 5 kg.) Find a way to check your grain bill weight on the next brew.

2. Dodgy Thermometer: This can really stuff up conversions so try and have a few thermometers so as you can check they agree with each other at mash temps.

3. Bag too small: If your bag constricts the grain, this will lower conversion as well. Make sure the bag lines your kettle.

4. Dodgy hydrometer: I see argon has just mentioned this above.

5. Grain crush: This isn't that important. Even a poor crush will work quite well as long as the grains are at least not whole!

Anyway, for this brew, see if you can get your hands on some extract sooner rather than later and top the bugger up. I think you'll still get a nice beer.

It looks as though you did the whole procedure well BOC so good on you :champ:. I personally would have done more swearing though ;).

PP
While those all could be possibilities, based on your pre- and post-boil gravity, I suspect it's probably something else.

You mention that your pre-boil gravity is 1.030. Without knowing what recipe you're doing or the anticipated OG, this sounds reasonable for a medium strength beer.

The part that is confusing is the fact that your post-boil gravity is lower than the pre-boil gravity. This should be the opposite because you are evaporating water and concentrating the sugar content, i.e., increasing the gravity.

Based on this, I suspect that one of your two gravity readings was off. Did you double and triple check each of them to make sure they were correct? If you're sure the pre-boil gravity is correct, then I imagine you misread the post-boil gravity and everything should be OK. If you're sure the post-boil gravity is correct, then PP's suggestions probably hold true.

One thing that is common when using a hydrometer is having it stick to the side of the test jar. Did you give it a good spin before taking the reading?

I'm sure with enough thinking, you can get this thing nailed down. Don't let it discourage you though. With the knowledge you gain from this brew day, I'm sure your next one will go smoothly.
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 23 Feb 2011, 08:03, edited 5 times in total.

Post #5 made 14 years ago
by BrickBrewHaus
I forgot to add...If you suspect your post-boil reading is off, you could always quickly pull out another sample and take another gravity reading. I say "quickly" because you don't want to wait until fermentation starts roaring away; you'll lose gravity points in a hurry and then you'll never know what the OG was.

Post #6 made 14 years ago
by stux
Your post boil gravity *can not* be less than your mashout gravity unless you added water between the two readings, thus you must have a problem with your readings.

I'd check your thermometer and hydrometer
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #7 made 14 years ago
by Beer O'Clock
Cheers guys. I appreciate the feedback. This one has already started bubbling in the FV. So we will just see how it turns out. I am out today and will buy another Hydrometer and Thermometer.

The recipe is a Timothy Taylor Landlord Ale clone, so it should finish at about 4.4%ABV.
4250g Pale Malt
30g Black Malt.

If my thermometer (digital) was wrong, what would be the worst case scenario - too hot or not warm enough ?

I didn't measure my preboil volume (noob error) but starting with 32 litres, and after 90min boil, I was surprised to only finish with 21 litres.

I used a loose sheet of voile and there was loads of space around the grains.

Thinking about it, I wonder if I was a Kilo short in my grain bill. But that doesn't explain the preboil OG reading which seems OK (target was 1038).

I obviously need to nail this down before my next brew, so any further ideas would be appreciated.
[center]Royalty ? I like the show but can't stand the actors.[/center]

Post #8 made 14 years ago
by stux
You can callibrate a thermoter, or at least check how far out it is by checking the ice point and boiling points

http://www.arrowscientific.com.au/educa ... -them.html

if you're lucky its just shifted and you just need to remember to add 1.2C or whatever to the readings

I haven't quite finished reading Palmer's How To Brew ;), but I think the range of 63-67C is fairly good for making a nice wort, lower makes more fermentable, and higher makes sweeter... (i hope I got that right)

If your hydrometer technique is not good, you might be misreading it, which i suspect is what happened either after mashout, or after boil...

you should really do a start-of-boil reading, just use a pyrex jug to grab some wort after the wort starts boiling, then wait for it to cool to about <40-50C. At high temps hydrometers do not work.

Once you take your reading correct it back to 20C with an SG correction calculator, and you can taste your "unseasoned" wort and then return the sample to the boil.

So, no loss ;)

You really only lose wort when you take your end-of-boil reading, but that tells you your OG, or how much you can dilute by, and also allows you taste your "seasoned" wort

if you weren't waiting for your sample to cool to about 40C, then that could easily be the cause of your out of whack readings

Oh, you test your hydrometer by putting it in water... at 20C, it should say 1.000
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #9 made 14 years ago
by Beer O'Clock
Thanks stux. Good bit of lateral thinking. The more feedback I get, the better I feel. Sadly, I am one of those people who feels useless and inadequate when I don't have the answer to a cockup. Cheers.
[center]Royalty ? I like the show but can't stand the actors.[/center]

Post #10 made 14 years ago
by PistolPatch
Beer O'Clock wrote:Thanks stux. Good bit of lateral thinking. The more feedback I get, the better I feel. Sadly, I am one of those people who feels useless and inadequate when I don't have the answer to a cockup. Cheers.
You shouldn't be worried Clock. I still get an occasional brew that I am 110 percent sure I have measured correctly etc and the figures are either very high or very low. It's rare now but it does still happen.

I like what stux and BBH have written above :salute:. I totally missed the pre and post-boil discrepancy :idiot:. Lucky they read more carefully than I do! As they have said, the more readings you can take when starting out, the better as a single reading can never be trusted.

There is also one problem with thermometer calibration that you never hear about. This is the fact that a thermometer that reads correctly at freezing and boiling point might not necessarily be accurate at fermentation, let alone mash temperatures. For example, imagine the effect of a slight imperfection in a glass tube thermometer? It is rare to get two thermometers of any sort to agree at mash temperatures even if they agree at 0 C and 100 C. From memory, the worst I have seen in my past thermometers is a 7 degree range (+/- 3.5 C.) If mashing at high temps, this can be quite serious stuff.

Unfortunately, there is no way to calibrate a thermometer at mash temps so what I do is...

1. I always have at least two of these thermometers...
SS_Thermometer.JPG
They are cheap, widely available and, surprisingly, very accurate considering the tube is only held by two copper bands which can possibly move :dunno: .
2. They also usually have a few on display so I will pick the two that agree at ambient temps.
3. At mash temps I have never found one of these thermometers to be more than a degree apart. That's pretty good.

Hope this helps ;)
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 24 Feb 2011, 20:18, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #11 made 14 years ago
by mcgrec
Bit of a silly question but do any of you know of a thermometer which has temp markings on the glass stem that is suitable for brewing with, if so what brand and where do you get them.

Post #12 made 14 years ago
by stux
I use a digital food safety thermometer and a distillers glass thermometer

like this
Image
and this
Image
but I also have one of those stainless steel backed brewers thermometers... which I use for measuring fermentation/fridge temperatures.... as I keep on dropping those ;)

The digital probe ones are quick, and the glass ones are accurate, so I check one against the other
Last edited by stux on 25 Feb 2011, 15:16, edited 5 times in total.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #14 made 14 years ago
by Beer O'Clock
OK. A quick update. I bottled my BIAB#1 today. First impressions of a quick taster are, that it has a pungent hop aroma and bitterness but no malt balance (ie no malty sweetness).

I calculated that it has an ABV of 2.7%. It's no 'head cracker' but is certainly drinkable. I am very surprised that, taste wise, it would rate as a very good 'kit' brew. So, with all the dramas and the stress, it's still turned out to be a very drinkable beer.

I would also like to pass on my thanks for all the support and suggestions that I received from you guys. Two new thermometers purchased, another hydrometer and a steel ruler. The next brew (BIAB#2, natch!), is scheduled for Friday 18th (my next day off). I shall apply all the relevant feedback and see what happens this time.
Cheers :thumbs:
[center]Royalty ? I like the show but can't stand the actors.[/center]

Post #15 made 14 years ago
by BrickBrewHaus
Beer O'Clock wrote:I calculated that it has an ABV of 2.7%.
Out of curiosity, how did you calculate the ABV, or more specifically what did you decide to be the OG? In your original post you mentioned the OG was 1.022. You would have to ferment to ~1.000 in order to achieve an ABV of 2.7% with this low of OG.

Most important, though, is that it turned out decent. I suspect that it's not actually 2.7% given the weird numbers you measured. Just goes to show that fretting over numbers is almost pointless. In your case you had some of the stranger set of numbers I've seen yet you ended with a "very drinkable beer" :clap:

I'm sure that with a bit more practice, your "very drinkable beer" will turn to fantastic beer.
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 10 Mar 2011, 03:15, edited 5 times in total.

Post #16 made 14 years ago
by Beer O'Clock
It finished at 1004 and I added the priming additions to come up with 2.7%.
I used http://www.rooftopbrew.net/abv.php.

You are right, there were some bizarre readings so this shouldn't be taken as 'gospel'.
I suspect the hopiness will soften a little in the coming weeks and make it even better.

Still, practice makes better.
Last edited by Beer O'Clock on 10 Mar 2011, 03:25, edited 5 times in total.
[center]Royalty ? I like the show but can't stand the actors.[/center]

Post #17 made 14 years ago
by BrickBrewHaus
Beer O'Clock wrote:It finished at 1004 and I added the priming additions to come up with 2.7%.
OK.

So looking at all the pieces of your puzzle here, I'm beginning to see two possible sources of error, both easily fixable:

1) You mention that your FG was 1.004 and your pre-boil gravity was a bit low from what was expected (1.030). This leads me to believe that your hydrometer is reading low. I say that because 1.004 is pretty low. I've personally had difficulties getting anything below 1.010. I'm not saying it's impossible to go that low, just that a reading like that leads me to believe your hydrometer may be off a little. If so, this would help explain the slightly low pre-boil gravity.

I'll reiterate what stux said earlier, calibrate your hydrometer in distilled water. At the temperature for which your hydrometer is calibrated you should read 1.000 or something very close. If it's off significantly (it's up to you to decide what is considered "significant") I would buy a new one or at the very least correct for that every time you take a gravity reading.

2) I think your OG reading of 1.022 can be disregarded completely. We all have a hard time admitting when or if a mistake was made, but it happens to all of us. I'm sure this was a simple error in reading the hydrometer. I'm by no means an expert on judging beer taste/aroma/mouthfeel, but I'm pretty sure your beer would be very thin and watery if you started at 1.022 and finished at 1.004, maybe more so than any Budweiser/Coors/Miller product. So it's probably safe to assume you're drinking a beer that started higher than 1.022 and is more than 2.7% ABV.

Just my $.02
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 10 Mar 2011, 03:43, edited 5 times in total.

Post #18 made 14 years ago
by Beer O'Clock
Thanks for that BBH.
Yeah, there were times during that brewday where errors could have occured. I thought I was prepared but maybe a little over confident. I shall calibrate all my measuring tools during the week. Not one to dwell over mistakes, only to learn from experience, I will concentrate on being a bit more pedantic next time.
[center]Royalty ? I like the show but can't stand the actors.[/center]

Post #20 made 14 years ago
by Yeasty
Well done Beer o'clock :clap: The main thing is you've got yourself a drinkable beer for your efforts, and being around 2.7% you can drink loads in one session so its a winner all the way. :drink: :drink:

Good luck for your next one :luck:

:peace:

Yeasty
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #21 made 14 years ago
by Beer O'Clock
OK guys. Just a final note on this one. After completing my second brew, I have realised where I buggered this one up !
Firstly, my grain bill was very short. By how much ? I don't know but short it was. This accounts for the low OG of 1.022.
Secondly, the pre-boil gravity reading was way out. It was poor temperature correction with a bit of wishfull thinking thrown in.

Still, lessons have been learnt. Plus, I have a few pints of 'Light' to get me by.
[center]Royalty ? I like the show but can't stand the actors.[/center]
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