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So yeah, FVV, overnight mash, questions etc.

Post #1 made 9 years ago
by Esquid
Mod Note:I added a question mark as a topic icon.When you feel your questions have been answered please change the icon to a check mark.
Homer

So,yeah, grain is cheap, and that inspired the following events. I wanted to get a bit of a supply of beer built up so I don't drink them too green, so decided to have a go at a FVV in my 23 L kettle. Opted to add 4 litres at boil time, and 4 litres at FV time for a total of 14.5L though I monkeyed about a little with the FV dilution.

Also decided to have a go at an overnight mash, late on Sunday for the boil on Monday. I used the stock all Amarillo recipe that came with BIABacus. I've previously brewed a few SMaSH brews based on that, but I've got some speciality malts in now, so wanted to experiment.

Well, kind of went to plan really without any major mishaps that I can think of. I got within half a degree of the correct strike temperature which is far better than I have achieved previously. I don't think it dropped by more than 1-1.5 degrees over the standard 90 minute mash period (had a thermocouple lobbed in the top of hte pan so I could check without opening up), and by the next day had dropped by around 10 degrees only. Because I was messing with FVV, I didn't bother taking a gravity sample before the boil, but at the end of the boil I was 5 points higher than expected, so assuming this ferments down to it's expected level it's not going to be a session beer. That said, I like strong beer anyway.

What I did with the FV additions was add them at the end of the boil. Tap water here comes out around 6 degrees C at this time of year, so helps drop the temperature, so I split the 4 litre FV addition (or at boil end now if you like) between 2 straight out of the tap, and 2 that I had previously frozen in a sanitized steel tray the night before in the deep freeze, so -18C I believe. Don't know if I did wrong or right there, but I can't see that it would be a problem. Next time I think I'll freeze 4 litres assuming this one works out OK. It's now fermenting away quite happily, so I'll update here when I'm sampling in a few weeks.

So yeah, mishaps. Only one that I can think of really. Since I wanted to retain heat/steam etc and because I was wrapping in sleeping bags to insulate, I wrapped the top of the pot in clingfilm. Didn't think that one through - forgot about capillary action altogether, cam down in the morning to a slightly worty sleeping bag, which didn't please the missus too much. But that was about it really. Seemed to make it all go much smoother.

So anyway, a couple of question that came up in the process.

Firstly BIABacus: I happened to enter the wrong kettle dimensions in the first instance, and when correcting only the dimensions, I noticed it changed the grain bill. Why would this be the case given that it's just a container and not part of the recipe.

Trub: How important is it to keep it out of the FV (assuming that you remove the hops)? I've seen some state they lob it all in on other forums. I'm guessing it would just settle out anyway? What I did was siphon through a hopsock, and although some got through, it looked fairly clear at the end of it all. What that did mean though was that I ended up with nearer 16L rather than the intended 14L (more beer - yay!).

So, anyway, time will tell on this brew, but assuming it's successful, I'll probably build a small heavily insulated box, to try to maintain temperatures more consistently, maybe a with a small 60W heater in there. It's defintely less of an issue for me to brew this way and gives me something to do on a Sunday evening.
Last edited by Esquid on 05 Apr 2016, 05:33, edited 2 times in total.

Post #2 made 9 years ago
by joshua
Esquid, Good on you, that you made it through you BIAB with out any Real Troubles.

To help with your questions....
1. If you change the Diameter of your Kettle, Your Evaporation during the Boil will Change. Larger Diameter, Larger surface area, More evaporation.
This can change your Total Water Needed TWN, and then, that will change your grain bill.

2. If you Filter the Trub, and recover all the Wort you can, You lower your Kettle to Fermenter Loss(KFL).
Some of the smaller Proteins in the wort are good for the Yeast.

Most of the trub is Useless, But does not harm the yeast.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #3 made 9 years ago
by Scott
Esquid,

A tad more to what Joshua wrote on the trub, in the old days I was more concerned about it and tried to cut it as much as possible. But - It is really not a big deal. Does not hurt the beer if it goes into the fermenter.

Best way to get rid of the trub before packaging (into keg or bottles) is to Cold Crash!!! It is remarkable, the help this gives.

If you want to clarify beer in addition to that (and Irish Moss at end of boil, etc.), the Brulosophy blog shows gelatin as a great way - soon before your beer goes into packaging - to reduce sediment there. Did it for the first time on my last batch and it worked well.

But to affirm, I do t worry about trub either and it is not a big deal. Ask more if question(s).
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Post #4 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
In a rush but have two, maybe three, four, whatever fast comments Esquid ;),

As Josh said, kettle dimensions affect evaporation rate and therefore tha amount of water you start with. A higher evaporation rate would mean you start with more water so your grain is going to be washed cleaner than if you used less water. The BIABacus adjusts for this automatically.

I'm a bit worried about your dilutions; there's nothing wrong with them but I would like to see your BIABacus file before you brewed and make sure you had your dilutions written into Section W.

Also study this post. The BIABacus tries to make sure you end up with slightly higher gravity than what you are aiming for. This means you can dilute it to the right strength. The last thing we want is you ending up with a brew of too low gravity. Evaporation is unpredictable so you do actually want to be in a position at the end of the brew day where you have to do a bit of dilution.

Syphoning through a filter (hopsock) at the end of your outlet hose is not great as it basically just leads to clogging. Your filter is best put inside the kettle at the hose entry. A bit like a funnel. You'd never see filter coffee made by shoving a bit of filter paper up the bottom of the "funnel". The filter paper always is at the top where a large volume can be exposed to a wide area of filter. Anyway, would need a lot more info on what your current set-up is to answer that question properly.

Finally, putting a probe on top of your mash is not going to give you an accurate temperature reading. The only way you will get an accurate temperature reading, no matter the thermometer set-up is, if you agitate the wort. Depending on your recipe and kettle, it isn't uncommon for an undisturbed mash to vary 8°C from place to place (e.g. top to bottom). Just something to be aware of.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 05 Apr 2016, 20:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 9 years ago
by Esquid
Thanks all, yes evaporation, makes sense now. Trub, not too much of an issue, good, I can scavenge more beer that way.
PistolPatch wrote:I'm a bit worried about your dilutions; there's nothing wrong with them but I would like to see your BIABacus file before you brewed and make sure you had your dilutions written into Section W.
Yup, they were there. I took 8 litres in all out, to add 2 at start of boil and 2 during boil and then 4 at fermenter time. I just added the 4 fermenter litres at FO instead to cool the wort. I may try 4 litres frozen next time if this one is tasty. Since I'm mashing overnight, I just need to remember to put a couple of trays in the freezer after I've set the mash going.
PistolPatch wrote: Also study this post. The BIABacus tries to make sure you end up with slightly higher gravity than what you are aiming for. This means you can dilute it to the right strength. The last thing we want is you ending up with a brew of too low gravity. Evaporation is unpredictable so you do actually want to be in a position at the end of the brew day where you have to do a bit of dilution.
That it's unpredictable is I suppose a given, though I managed to time this one to exactly 90 minutes.

This does raise another question though that did occur at boil time, though I forgot to mention it. If you don't know how long the boil will take, how important is timing for the bittering hops. Well I think that's what they are, the ones that go in at 60 minutes (and probably in the range of 20 to 60 minutes too?). I guess the last 10 minutes is going to be pretty easy to judge as you know what's going on by then, but at the start of the boil it's going to be a little awkward to judge I think.

Well, given that I can still dilute, how much would I need to add. Had an OG of 1.063, and there's about 16L. I can't take a reading now, since it's had a day and half bubbling away.
PistolPatch wrote: Syphoning through a filter (hopsock) at the end of your outlet hose is not great as it basically just leads to clogging. Your filter is best put inside the kettle at the hose entry. A bit like a funnel. You'd never see filter coffee made by shoving a bit of filter paper up the bottom of the "funnel". The filter paper always is at the top where a large volume can be exposed to a wide area of filter. Anyway, would need a lot more info on what your current set-up is to answer that question properly.
Actually tried it the other way round on the previous batch. I found that towards the end of siphoning, when there's chaff all in the kettle, the small surface area of filter quickly became clogged due to the amount of traffic through such a small area. With it on the outlet, if it clogs, it just fills the sock more and exposes more "fresh" filter area. Sure, some trub gets through, but consensus seems to be that trub is not a big problem.
PistolPatch wrote: Finally, putting a probe on top of your mash is not going to give you an accurate temperature reading. The only way you will get an accurate temperature reading, no matter the thermometer set-up is, if you agitate the wort. Depending on your recipe and kettle, it isn't uncommon for an undisturbed mash to vary 8°C from place to place (e.g. top to bottom). Just something to be aware of.
True enough, though it's quite a long probe (ooer), and gets to most places ;) I had considered the agitation issue, but since I left it overnight this time, I didn't bother. I might be inclined to put a small 12V pump in and run it every fifteen minutes to mix things up, though I'm probably getting ahead of myself at the minute, insulated box comes first. I've got some scrap ply, and roll of glass fibre insulation around, so I'll have a go with that, it's free after all.

On an unrelated note, I did buy some bottled beers the other day. If you're in the UK, you'll know Banks's bitter, which I'm quite fond of. I had two others as well, a French lager and a German pils. I'm never disappointed with Banks's, I think it's a good session beer and reasonably priced at 90p a bottle, but the other two were practically tasteless. I've never had that experience before, though over the last 10 years I've mainly drunk wine, possibly because beer became disappointing though I don't remember that being the case. I would rather have drunk the pond water that I made on my first BIAB batch, which looked awful but tasted fine. I suppose the Fosters, Stellas and Heinekens of this world have never really been for me, but I was quite surprised that two bottled beers were as insipid as they turned out to be.
Last edited by Esquid on 05 Apr 2016, 23:47, edited 1 time in total.

Post #6 made 9 years ago
by Scott
Esquid,

On how much water to add to dilute, I set up a math equation with how much contents you have now on one side of the equation, and the other side existing OG and target OG. Should be able to figure out how much to add.

If in doubt add less water and then just remeasure the OG so that you do not dilute it too much.
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Post #7 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Okay, a coupe of things here we need to get a bit clearer. The first is that you always know how long your boil will take. You set the time and then stick to it. Easy, simple, no mucking about.

At the end of the boil. If you've had a calm still day, you'll have had less evaporation than a dry windy day so you'll need to dilute very little. On a dry windy day, you'll find your volume further down and your gravity higher up so you'll need to dilute more. To work out how much to dilute, you use Section N of the BIABacus - "Pre-Pitching Corrections". Add water to the 'Extra Water Added to Fermentor' field until in Section O, your 'Expected Original Gravity' changes to what you want.

Diluting in the fermenter with 'good' water is fine but it's a good idea not to exceed 15% so...

In your future recipe designs, you should try and avoid using the 'Water Added to Fermenter' field in Section W as that eats into your 15% 'safety margin'. Does that make sense?

....

As a side note to the above, you'll often read about people trying to correct a brew's gravity before the boil. This is not a great idea for many reasons; hot volume and gravity measurements are harder to get accurate and, you don't know, until the end of a brew, what your evaporation rate will be on that day.

Even commercial breweries that can control evaporation very well, still do various pre-pitching corrections due to varying malt specifications from batch to batch. Don't be scared of pre-pitching dilutions but don't overdo them!

....

With the filtering, I still need some more detail but I think you might be using a bag that is too porous. You really shouldn't need to filter at all and there shouldn't be any actual chaff there, just silt. With a syphon you can gently lower it or with a tap you can have a pickup device such as seen here and both those methods will give you bugger all trub. So, the first thing to look at is why you are needing to filter. Remember your transfer should be gentle.

If you did use a filter, you need it to be set up in a way where it draws the wort through a large surface area. In the pic below, a bag shoved up against the tap outlet (right) is going to quickly clog. On the left a filter set-up that is drawing over a wide surface area won't.
Picture2.jpg
...

The main thing with the temps is to get them right in that first hour or so of the mash so agitate and check the temp regularly during that time.

I think that's it! :peace:
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 06 Apr 2016, 10:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 9 years ago
by Esquid
PistolPatch wrote:Okay, a coupe of things here we need to get a bit clearer. The first is that you always know how long your boil will take. You set the time and then stick to it. Easy, simple, no mucking about.
OK, simple enough. I had read somewhere that others continued to boil beyond time to reach a desired gravity, which is probably what threw me. If the intention is to provide an error margin and therefore on occasion overshoot a little and dilute after the fact, then that makes perfect sense.
PistolPatch wrote: On a dry windy day, you'll find your volume further down
Wind is only likely to e a problem, if I've eaten too many sprouts. I'm doing stove top brews in a 23L kettle on an induction hob, so I can adjust evaporation if I need to though it doesn't sound like it's necessary.
PistolPatch wrote:Diluting in the fermenter with 'good' water is fine but it's a good idea not to exceed 15% so...

In your future recipe designs, you should try and avoid using the 'Water Added to Fermenter' field in Section W as that eats into your 15% 'safety margin'. Does that make sense?
Well, I guess I'll see how this one comes out, but anecdotally, others seem to have success using ice to chill, rather than water baths, IC etc. I'm all for avoiding the expense and necessity of storing equipment (limited space, and although funds aren't that limited, I'm tight). I imagine that adding 4 litres of ice at -18C is going to drop the temperature a lot. Have heard of no chill, both in cubes, and straight into the fermenter, but I'm a bit leery of siphoning hot sticky wort. I don't have a tap see, just poly tubing. Seems fraught with potential mishaps, much prefer to siphon it cold, and would rather do without additional equipment though that may well be a necessity if brewing larger volumes. 16L in the FV is the biggest I've done so far.
PistolPatch wrote: With the filtering, I still need some more detail but I think you might be using a bag that is too porous. You really shouldn't need to filter at all and there shouldn't be any actual chaff there, just silt. With a syphon you can gently lower it or with a tap you can have a pickup device such as seen here and both those methods will give you bugger all trub. So, the first thing to look at is why you are needing to filter. Remember your transfer should be gentle.
I think there might be some cultural confusion over the English vernacular of "chaff all", just means bugger all. There's just a little silt in there, I'm really using it just to prevent any larger lumps getting into the FV. I'm well versed in siphoning carefully, since I'm quite an experienced kit and country wine maker, but I've found so far that if I don't filter, I either lose loads to trub, or end up with a ton of trub in the FV.

To this point (4th brew) I haven't used a hop sock for its intended purpose, I just fish them out after the boil while it's still hot, so maybe that will make a difference but empirically, what I see after chilling is a good wedge of what looks like "brain material" occupying the bottom third or so of the kettle. It doesn't settle that hard, so I can't really siphon more than about two thirds of the volume without getting into the "grey matter" so to speak. If I whirlpool, I can get most of it fairly central, but it's still not a heavy setting sediment that I can easily avoid picking up. That's why I'm filtering, to keep most of that out, and it seems to be successful.

As we discussed earlier in the thread, most seem unconcerned by some of this making it in to the FV; certainly at the end of fermentation, I don't have an excessive amount of sediment now whereas the first brew (pond water MO SMaSH), had about an inch.
Last edited by Esquid on 06 Apr 2016, 18:56, edited 1 time in total.

Post #9 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Okey dokey :). Still a few issues but, before we get to that...

I love that you have experience on the wine side. That is one thing on my bucket list so I'll be getting back to you on that ;)...

In the meantime, trust me, I'm a lawyer. (I'm not, but anyway :P).

Inside brewing will give you more control over your evaporation rate but not complete control. Having an induction hob is not going to help you there much either. Why?

Because, there is no great way of measuring evaporation rates during a boil. Firstly you need to stop the boil so as to even see some sort of measurement. Secondly, your rate of evaporation will vary during the boil. So, especially until you have done at least five brews and measured them as best as you can, don't even think that anything pre-pitching is predictable. I'm tempted to re-write that last sentence and bold it and italicise it. It is a fact.

Your job as a home-brewer, is to over-estimate either your evaporation rate and/or under-estimate your kettle efficiency. That way, you will always end up with enough "sugar" which can then be diluted.

Very few home brewers will get that last paragraph; instead they will chase impossible dreams of being able to accurately predict post-boil volumes and gravities. Lots of sites out there that will support that hope. Here, we focus on the realities, as arrogant as that sounds.

...

Lots of other things are worrying me in your post above Esquid.

One, straight off the bat is diluting with ice. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you are aware of the limitations I mentioned in my last post of fermenter dilutions. You haven't mentioned the 15% I referred to so I'm a bit worried I didn't write my last post very well :dunno:.

I'm also still not clear on what your set-up is, thought I had asked for that a few times above??? Anyway, I've studied this thread a lot more than most would, so, if I'm not getting it then I doubt others would :).

If I am reading things right (but I am in no way sure), you are using poly tubing to transfer hot wort. If you have, then it is almost certain you have ruined your beer. (But, just re-reading your last post for about the tenth time and you say, "but I'm a bit leery of siphoning hot sticky wort. I don't have a tap see, just poly tubing. Seems fraught with potential mishaps, much prefer to siphon it cold..")

I'm really battling to have even a basic understanding of what your actual process is. Detail, detail, detail - please!!!! :P

...

Use a hop sock.

...

Trub into the fermenting vessel is a debatable topic. This means it is also an advanced topic and should not be of great concern for most readers. I'm not even going to go there apart from saying that there is not enough research on the subject at this stage.

;)
PP
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Post #10 made 9 years ago
by Esquid
PistolPatch wrote: I love that you have experience on the wine side. That is one thing on my bucket list so I'll be getting back to you on that ;)...
Expertise is probably a stretch, but I've not made anything undrinkable or lost a batch in 20 years. The only time I had something go slightly awry was a beer from dry ingredients (I guess spray dried malt), but it was that log ago that I don't really remember. I rarely made beer until recently as I was always a little disappointed with the results from kits, and although I had always wanted to have a go at AG, the three vessel method looked to be a bit of a pig in terms of outlay, cleaning (a particular bugbear of mine) and storage space.
PistolPatch wrote: Because, there is no great way of measuring evaporation rates during a boil.
Well, I got close enough for my needs on the last two tries, but I wasn't sweating it too much to be honest. I do think people get a bit hung up the science side of it all and forget that's all a live natural process. Due to the diameter of the pan and size of the single burner and the localised nature of heating you can make a fair stab at estimating evaporation rates without stopping the boil. As I say though it was close enough for me anyway.
PistolPatch wrote: One, straight off the bat is diluting with ice.
I can't logically see why it could be a problem; Water, at least in Blighty, is water (with regional variations of course), so I can't see any inherent potential infection problem. Most of the grape concentrate kits I make involve fairly chunky dilutions, to the extent that, IIRC, the last CC wine kit I made starts with 7 litres of grape concentrate, and 16 litres of tap water is added.

Of course beer kits as well are diluted even more, and although I was never overly impressed with them, I generally put that down to the fact that the wort is over processed and that mostly, there is sugar added. Given that I've never lost a batch to infection that really only leaves deficiencies in the end product, and from a chemistry point of view, given that it's really still a very thin infusion and I think therefore not likely to be near saturation I can't see where a problem might be.

But as I say I'm at the beginning of a journey here and time will tell; I'm not planning on making any more until I've started drinking this batch which is likely 4 weeks away yet. To be fair this is experimental from my point of view, that's where the "grain is cheap" bit comes in. Sure I'll have lost a few hours of time, but the grain bill for this was only around 6 GBP, so I can live with it. What I was looking to do was condense my brewing a bit so I only brew a couple of days a month, but if it's only fit for the drain so be it.

I was quite a bit over 15% to be honest, probably more like 25%, but it sure looked and tasted like wort, and is happily bubbling away now.
PistolPatch wrote: I'm also still not clear on what your set-up is, <SNIP>
If I am reading things right (but I am in no way sure), you are using poly tubing to transfer hot wort.
Sorry, must have missed that, but I doubt it's very different to anyone else's. I have a SS 23L kettle on top of a domestic induction hob (I can punt about 4 kw into the base of the pan if I need to).

The process as I've done it is pretty simple:

1) Measure out water
2) Raise to strike
3) Dough in
4) Mash (this time was overnight, the other three times a 90 minute mash).
5) Lift, drain and squeeze bag
6) Boil
7) Chill
8) Transfer to FV

The previous 3 times I chilled in a water bath (literally, as I have a downstairs bathroom so it's easy), this time I used a combination of water bath and ice because the volume was that much larger, and it already took 40-45 minutes on the smaller 9 litre batches I was doing.

The transfer is of cold wort, I'm not messing with plastic and hot wort, it's already flexible enough to be a pain, it would just fold at wort temperatures. I only mentioned hot wort as I've read of some transferring hot wort to the FV to stand and cool overnight without chilling (plus of course the no chill method), but I'm not convinced that a plastic FV and hot wort are a good combination.

Anyway at this point it's back on the hob (turned off of course), and after a good rest to let the trub settle, I pop a U bend affair siphon into the kettle, and the other end into the FV with a very fine mesh bag over it. I pay most of my attention to the kettle end and try and avoid the floaties, until the last inch or two when I just aim for the lower concentrations of floaties and let the bag do its job, which it seems to have done.

There you have it.
Last edited by Esquid on 07 Apr 2016, 03:09, edited 1 time in total.

Post #11 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
If you ever do syphon hot wort, only use silicone hose as other types will, very often, taint your beer, especially after a few uses.

On the ice bit, you said, "I can't logically see why it would be a problem." Remember, I only said it could be a problem if you used too much...
PistolPatch wrote:One, straight off the bat is diluting with ice. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you are aware of the limitations I mentioned in my last post of fermenter dilutions.
In other words, try and stick to a maximum of 15%. Unfortunately, you'll find that 15% won't drop a very hot wort's temperature by much. This post has a calculator in it to help work that out.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 08 Apr 2016, 12:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #12 made 9 years ago
by Esquid
So, I'm now drinking this. It is strong as I didn't dilute. I would guess it's around the 6.8% mark, but that's just from memory, I didn't keep extensive notes.

That aside though, it is very, very drinkable. It's nice and clear, colour is good and my palate can't detect any deficiencies.So, it would appear that diluting/cooling with ice and an overnight mash didn't in the end cause any problems in the final product. Whether I'll dilute with ice again remains to be seen though. The last batch I made, I cooled in the kitchen sink using it as an ice bath, and I think I got the 16L batch down to temperature in about 45 minutes, which I consider fast enough. All other batches had been cooled in the bath with tap water (about 6 degrees C this time of year) and it took nearer 90 minutes that way.

I'm going to start making some smaller experimental batches so I think, a couple of litres of this, a couple of litres of that etc, just to try a few things out.

Post #13 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Good stuff Esquid :thumbs:. Deserves a pic I reckon :).

I wish I had your water temperature of 6°C (43°F)! Mine is at 28°C (82°F) or higher for many months of the year :smoke:.

With a tap water temp of 6C, you should have no problems chilling. Here's what I think is happening...

Ask brewers who have tried to chill their kettle buried in snow, and, you'll hear that it doesn't work well. Snow can act as a great insulator - think igloos. The same goes with sitting a fermenter in a bath of water. Layers set up that effectively insulate the fermenter from the cold bath. The same goes again if you have an immersion chiller.

So, you need to prevent these insulating layers from becoming established. For those using an immersion chiller, they need to jiggle it as often as possible, advice you never hear. In your situation, you need to disturb the bath water regularly, and, if possible, the wort in the fermenter as well. You'll be amazed at the difference this makes.

....

Doing the above will, definitely, get your chilling worries sorted.

....

Moving to tiny batch sizes is fraught with problems when it comes to experimenting. When experimenting, I can do two side by side 'double batches' (that's 2 x 46 L / 12 Gal) and I still don't draw conclusions. That is a lot of beer for a home brewer and they are identical recipes done simultaneously.

Personally, and, I'm certain, scientifically, I can't see how on single tiny batches, even if brewed simultaneously using the same recipe, you'll be able to draw any conclusions. For example, a single extra grain of dried yeast or a bit of hop debris will change your ingredient input significantly.

You mentioned a couple of litres of this and a couple of litres of that. The smallest VIF I have heard of was here a few weeks ago and that was 5 L. That brewer is really pleased with his beer which is fantastic but he is not drawing conclusions from his brewing, he is investigating styles.

So, I reckon keep doing what you are doing but add a bit of "agitation" in the chilling process if you are worried about chilling time.

One other thing... Your post above tells me your beer is great. Sometimes, the biggest fault in a beer is the brewer. I've done it myself in the past many times; I taste the beer looking for faults instead of tasting the beer and appreciating it. Whilst that might be a nice humble approach, it's actually a really silly approach as you won't allow your mind to see a beautiful beer even if you are drinking it.

Start from a mind-set of, "Wow! I wonder what this is going to taste like?" If it is really a crap beer, you'll know. If it is a great beer, you won't miss out on it.

;)
PP

P.S. If I haven't put you to sleep above, one of the best "lagers" I have ever tasted, was brewed from an IPA tinned extract kit. It tasted nothing like an IPA but was an absolutely superb lager and it was fermented with no temperature control in the same suburb I live in, during summer; in other words, average ambient temperature of 30°C / 86°F. Figure that one out.
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Post #14 made 9 years ago
by Esquid
PistolPatch wrote:Good stuff Esquid :thumbs:. Deserves a pic I reckon :).
I'll see if I can sort one, we have a digital camera somewhere but I'm a bit of a luddite when it comes to camera technology. My favourite camera is an old manual (well semi automatic) 35mm film SLR.
PistolPatch wrote: You mentioned a couple of litres of this and a couple of litres of that. The smallest VIF I have heard of was here a few weeks ago and that was 5 L. That brewer is really pleased with his beer which is fantastic but he is not drawing conclusions from his brewing, he is investigating styles.
That's kind of my plan. To investigate. I am in some respects a chemist and a cook, and since brewing really is cooking with some chemistry thrown in I reckon I can get repeatable results. And that's really what I want to test, It's no biggie to lose a couple of litres, and of course bear in mind, that brewing a couple of litres of this and that is really quite familiar territory since I come to all grain from brewing wine and I can get repeatable results with small batches then. But, as you say, it may end in tears.

I'm still going to continue with my 16L batches, which I do in a 23L pot by dunk sparging, but I'm going to run some experiments alongside the larger brews. Actually 16L is a good figure for me as the missus and I can get through that in about two weeks, so brewing twice a month gives me plenty of opportunity to get the process refined as best I can and I've found I quite enjoy the process, so I don't mind the investment in time,

I will report back in due course.
Last edited by Esquid on 01 May 2016, 02:50, edited 1 time in total.

Post #15 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Cool! We always want pics!

Did my essay on agitating during chilling make sense?

Re being a chemist and a cook, I'm going to pull you up there but, I might be wrong :think:...

I see I haven't convinced you on the problems you will get measuring out yeast and hops. Don't scientists do thought experiments first? For example, a hop pellet at the batch sizes you are proposing is impossible to measure even if every hop pellet was identical. You'd need a pill cutter and a cocaine dealer's scales. But, even that is not good enough...

A hop pellet, on average, be say 10%AA but that does not mean that every single pellet will be 10%AA. Some might be 7.5 and others 12.5%. Make sense?

Also, Water is a big factor in beer. Where I live, the sources it comes from (bore, damn, desalination plant) changes every day. Is yours consistent?

Mine is so inconsistent here, I have to use reverse osmosis as do the local breweries. Do you RO?

See what I mean?

;)
PP
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Post #16 made 9 years ago
by Esquid
Water is consistent here, so that won't be a problem. And I have a plan regarding the predictability of natural products.

Like I say though, it's only a couple of hours anyway, no biggie if it fails.
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