When Brewdays go bad.....

Post #1 made 10 years ago
Well after my "success" with brewday #1 I was champing at the bit to put down # 2

Decided on a Hefe this time around.

Day started well enough, mash in at 50 for 20 mins, up the temp to 63 for another 75 and mash out for 1 min at 78.

So far so good. Lifted the bag, squeezed the grain with my new "Tennis Racket" inspired bag squeezer, and all good. Up the Temp to max and sit and wait, getting close. 96 degrees then....... My 8 week old Electric Urn dies!!!!!!! Arghhhhhhhhh :argh:
.
In desperation I pulled out the largest pots from the kitchen. It took 4 pots but I managed to transfer everything across. Boiled for the required 90 mins on the Kitchen stovetop. Had no ideas what to do but I decided to split my hop bill roughly across the 4 pots.

Next problem I wasnt set up for no chill and I couldnt boil my immersion chiller. Being it was only 1 brew old I decided to clean it down with sanitiser as best I could and hope for the best. Post boil emptied the remains of the 4 pots back into the original Urn. Chilled with my immersion chiller and transferred to the fermenter. Being I had used four pots I had boiled off more than expected so VIF was way down. I took another gamble and used some swiss voile to strain the Trub, and managed to squeeze an extra couple of litres into the fermenter. (Trub free)

Besides equipment failure I'm not too confident in this batch and all the dodgy stuff I did. Boil off rates using 4 pots was a lot higher than expected. Efficency was way down, which I read often is the case with Wheats but I think my Grain bill may have been too low to compensate. A recipe for disaster.

Anyway I am thinking I will let it ferment out. Have a taste and if it half Ok bottle it, else down the drain it goes. It might be a "Mid Strength" Hefe or it might just be sewer cleaner...

Certainly a tough day at the office. :cry: :cry:
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Post #2 made 10 years ago
bundy,

Been there, done that. Always expect the unexpected! I had a boil-over on my wife's 2 day old flat top stove on my very first brew! I thought I would never be allowed to brew in the house again? Maybe that's why she didn't squawk when I bought a propane burner and a 15.5 gallon kettle?

The beer may be one of your finest? Usually when you do something that is not really repeatable. You have a super beer!
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV

Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #3 made 10 years ago
BobBrews wrote:bundy,

The beer may be one of your finest? Usually when you do something that is not really repeatable. You have a super beer!
I hope you are right Bob but my gut tells me otherwise. More a problem with Efficiency on this one I think which in hindsight looking back at the day, put me behind the 8 ball from the start.

It has got me thinking though on how I should react on the day if things aren't going to plan and some of the expected figures are off the mark. So far I have just followed the Brewday process, taking and recording measurements but not acting on those measurements. I've just been hoping it all goes as it should, but this disaster day has got me thinking that maybe I should be more pro-active based on what is happening in front of me . I am hoping some wiser (and more experienced) heads than mine can provide some answers.

If I give you a few examples maybe you or others could chip in if I am on the right track or not.

Scenario 1 - I finish my Mash and the GIB - Gravity into Boil is lower or higher than expected (Lets say be a considerable margin not just a few points) To use my last brew, I was aiming for 1.050 GIB and I only had 1.040.

What are my options?

Should I plan for a longer Boil? thus less Volume into Fermentor.
Should I consider adding in Extracts such as DME to bring the Gravity up a bit?
Extend the Mash time? - In my case yesterday with my low GIB I couldnt extend the Mash time (and wether that would even help or not I dont know) as I had pulled the bag and raised temps to Boiling point. My Sample took 30 minutes or so to cool so I can take an accurate reading thus there is a time lapse post Mash before I realise the GIB is low.

And on the Flipside if my GIB is high, -

Should I add some water into the Kettle?
Reduce the Boil length?



So if yes to any of these possibilities to get back on track which is best and how can I figure out values / times etc?

Scenario 2 - Presuming things are going OK and my GIB was good and I am at the Boil phase. On my first brew I took Volume measurements every 30 mins or so. Now say I notice my Evaporation rates on this day are 40% lower than expected after say 60 mins, so I have 30 mins left in my Boil. (And I have probably added at least some 60 min Hops by now) What can I do?

Can I extend the Boil by say 30 mins and just recalculate the remaining Hops by pushing back everything by 30 minutes? Would this affect the Hops already in the Boil? If I was just to continue along my Evap would not be enough and I presume my FG would be lower than it should be. In my Case I use an Electric Urn so I can't up the Flame to a more vigorous boil which may be an option for Gas Kettles

Conversely I have a day that I am chugging along and the Kettle is evaporating faster than expected.

What are my options here? Can I add Tap water mid boil?
Should I reduce my Boil time? (Presuming not as I think I need to Boil for a reason DMS? / Starch conversion?)
Can I add Water Post boil?


Anyway I think some guidance on adjustments that can be made during the process would be great. I suppose a lot of this comes from experience but I dont have a lot of that (yet) :)

I have uploaded my BIABIcus file from this "Failed??" Brewday. As you can see my GIB Was low to start with. I have read many people get lower efficiency with Wheat for various reasons. Although I dindt adjust BIABIcus eff% the recipe I took this from stated 67% efficiency. So possibly something to do with it? ( I have read many Post from PP though as why not to adjust this so as yet hevent touched it) My Evap rate in this case was also much higher than normal due to the "4 Pot Improvised Boiler"


But thinking ahead to next time how can I handle these situations to adjust along the way to ensure I get into the Fermenter something resembling what I set out to achieve?

Cheers....Bundy
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Last edited by bundy on 27 Mar 2014, 10:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #4 made 10 years ago
Gday Bundy,

Don't sweat it, the beer might turn out much better than what you think. Also just because the beer started off at 1040 instead of 1050, it might also ferment out lower by a few points so the ABV will equal out a little bit.

I never bother with protein rests and I don't think you really need to these days as the malts are already highly modified (disclaimer - I don't make wheat beers so they may be different). Plus this just adds an extra unnecessary bit of production to your day, which for a new brewer adds another element that can go wrong.

The dead urn really sux, but you did the right thing boiling it on the stove and I think it will work out fine. Brewing is all about consistency. Once you get used to your urn you will have a good idea of its boil off rate per hour you can pretty much lock that in. You may be up or down a few points over summer or winter, but in general you will get pretty close to your numbers each time. Yes you can boil a bit longer if you're a long way off your EOB volume or afterwards you can top up your fermenter with some DME if you want to raise the ABV, but in general you shouldn't have to very often.

Post #5 made 10 years ago
bundy,

You are worrying about to much crap and taking the whole process to seriously. I don't take any readings except temperature during a normal brew! Nothing. Every once in a while (when it's not -25F degrees below zero) outside. I will take gravity readings. Get the process down first. When you are comfortable with the way you are brewing, you then could start "dialing it in".

I bet the beers you produce will be wonderful no matter what your readings will be. So if you start brewing without all the numbers and your beer is good. Why complicate your new hobby from the start with extra baggage? Learn to brew and follow the instruction of your recipe. Then gradually add the gravities, evaporation rate (if you want?)

Like I said before. I don't do anything except keeping close watch to the temperatures. I tweak the pH of my water for certain beers but that's about it. I no longer use any software. There are lots of people here that really love to follow the BIABacus Spreadsheet. That is super. Some people just love to hit the numbers and fine tune their skills. If that is what they like? Great! The beer will be perfect and very repeatable. If you like messing with it, that is commendable. Use BIABacus and help us improve it with data. Just get the process down first and be comfortable with your equipment. (sounds dirty?)

Relax and have a homebrew! :drink:
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV

Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
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Post #6 made 10 years ago
[EDIT: Just saw Bob's post above as I was submitting this one. Bob, see my last para below. There are a lot of errors that can prop up for new brewers when starting out that never get identified unless they do a bit of worrying. Hold on, read the whole section called, "Finally." See what I mean?]

bundy lives in Perth Aces :drink: ,

Btw guys, Feral Brewery is on tap at the Sail and Anchor tomorrow arvo/evening. Be there!

bundy, you did bloody well saving that brew day. Very nice job :clap:.

Main problem you had was that you brewed a wheat beer. Beer is made from barley, not wheat :roll: :lol:.

...

More seriously, the wheat or the four pots etc won't be the cause of your low kettle efficiency. I haven't seen the actual from your first brew, the APA but unless they were similarly low, just ignore this batch. It could have been caused by something as simple as incorrectly weighed grain.

Just brew again and take as many measurements as is comfortable for you on brew day in Sections L, M and O of the BIABacus.

This leads to your next post.

.....

Never trust a Gravity into Boil reading unless you take several samples and have cooled them. Even if you did trust it, how do you know what the evaporation rate will be that day? It can vary wildly especially if you brew outdoors.

Never adjust for evaporation during the boil. Once again, it is too hard to measure well on an actual brew day.

You don't need to be worrying about the above anyway. Here's what to do...

Before the Brew: Pay attention to your measurements into the brew. Have you a way of double-checking them using two different ways? For example measure depth and headspace if possible for your strike water. Measure your malts individually and then when added together, make sure their total weight adds up.

That is all you need to do before each brew.

During the Brew: When you are starting out, if you are using the BIABacus then things are very easy. All you have to do is focus on taking measurements of volume and gravity where the BIABacus asks you to if you can.

That is your only numbers concern during the brew.

Before Pitching: If you have taken a few measurements above, you will see if they confirm each other. For example, in your file, in Section P, EAW confirmed EIB so you could know with some confidence that you were in the shit a little. In other words, you are in a position to make an educated guess such as maybe my grain bill was weighed incorrectly.

That happens to all of us from time to time and I for one would never throw extract into an all-grain brew because my palate is sensitive to extract twang and there is no way of me knowing if the extract has the twang until I taste the fermented beer. Too risky.

More commonly though,if you follow the BIABacus defaults, you'll generally end up with either more volume or a higher gravity than expected, usually the latter. If you have the higher gravity then you might choose to dilute the wort before you pitch. That is what Section N is for. If you are using the BIABacus and everything into the brew has been measured right, then your adjustments should be so small that you can probably just use tap water assuming it tastes okay. If you had to do a big adjustment, then you might think about using filtered or boiled water.

Finally: You need to see a confirmed pattern before adjusting anything major in the BIABacus and if you adjust anything you must be really confident that you are doing it for the right reasons. Thousands of hours have gone into the BIABacus design, formulas etc and what we are seeing here is if that someone sees a problem in their actuals versus estimates, we quickly know what questions to ask. Evaporation much lower than expected? Then we ask about leaving the lid on during the boil or how vigorous the boil was.

You get the drill ;).

As the other guys said, there is nothing to worry about here. You've done well. Just take measurements again on your next few brews and when you are confident, you'll actually be able to stop taking measurements! (Mind you, you might want to brew a few wild beers occasionally and then you will have to start measuring again. Also, understanding what measurements are important makes it easy for you to pass any great recipes you find in the future on to others.

Freo tomorrow guys :drink: :party: :lol:,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 27 Mar 2014, 20:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #7 made 10 years ago
Thanks for the detailed reply PP,

I understand your reasoning and it seems your logic goes along the lines of as long as I get my Inputs right as per BIABIcus then the output will look after itself. i.e. Ensure Grain Bill and Water Volume in are accurate, then ensure my controllables such as Mash Time and temp are right the figures and measurements I take should be close to what is predicted.
Sounds fair enough. I was more thinking, especially with this batch, as I was so far off I could maybe have salvaged things a bit better.

In my case I rely on Nev from Gryphon to supply and Mill my Grain. From what I gather he is a very experienced campaigner, so I never thought to double check what he had given me (But will take a closer look now as we can all make mistakes) I am pretty sure though the Grain Bill weights were right as I measured Volume into Boil and the estimate from BIABIcus for that and the Actual pretty well matched up perfectly. So I think I can discount an incorrectly weighed grain bill.

The one thing though I didn't check was how well the Wheat was milled. Nev says he does a standard Mill be it for BIAB or 3V (So all the same as I have read you suggest many times is the way to go - no need for a finer or double mill for BIAB) but I have also read that Wheat needs a finer Grind setting as it is a smaller grain and is a lot harder to crack. Nev tells me he mills it all in one grind with the Barley, as the wheat wont go through his mill by itself. Maybe it just wasnt cracked enough this time around. Dunno

As for making a Wheat - I'll forgive you, being a Queenslander you may not have had the opportunity to indulge in your youth. ;)
But it's what got me started enjoying craft beers near on 30 years ago. The beginning of the switch from Emu Export and Emu Bitter (Have mercy on me for I once sinned..... :lol: )

Those Hot Summer nights spent at the Queens, sitting on the verandah sipping a Redback (When it was made properly not like now!) were pure gold!
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Post #8 made 10 years ago
Wash your mouth out...and not with that horrible substance you call wheat beer. Pistol Patch and I are completely against this substance although apparently in some beer circles it is considered a real beer, but then again so is brett beer. My brother is named brett, he doesn't drink beer but then he married a girl who's father owns a pub, he still doesn't drink beer....what a waste.

Did I mention Nev from gryphon is a vegetarian? Never trust a man that doesn't eat meat, that's what my mum always told me or was it never trust a man that doesn't drink, I can't remember, but either way, that tofu salad of Nev's wont make friends for anyone.... although Nev can drink, he also makes a pretty awesome dark lager... did I mention that Nev's a vegetarian?

Turnip!

Post #9 made 10 years ago
Aces - Have you been at Nev's Tettnang Pilsner by any chance? :lol: :lol:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #10 made 10 years ago
mally wrote:Aces - Have you been at Nev's Tettnang Pilsner by any chance? :lol: :lol:
Ummm, yep! Sorry Bundy, not much useful advice there, but seemed funny at the time :whistle:
Last edited by Aces high on 30 Mar 2014, 06:22, edited 1 time in total.

Post #11 made 10 years ago
:lol: :lol: :lol: It was funny Aces ;). But you two missed a bloody great Feral beer. The Tusk was astounding!!!
bundy wrote:Thanks for the detailed reply PP,
No worries bundy and your thinking is on the right track. I really don't see how you could have salvaged things any better than you did.

Funny you mention the milling of the wheat as I thought about that whilst at work on Friday. You are definitely asking the right questions. Wheat is a lot smaller than barley and with that high percentage of wheat in the grain bill, this could have been the source of your problem. I am a good mate of Nev's and he had a death in the family about the time ordered so next time you order such a large volume of wheat in the bill, remind him that it might cause problems.

As for state and territory stuff, I am actually from New South Wales. But, I was here in Perth during the days when you were drinking Redback at the Queens. An advanced search of my posts here on "Matilda Bay" or "America's Cup" might dig up some memories for you.

:P ;) :peace: ,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 30 Mar 2014, 20:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #12 made 10 years ago
PistolPatch wrote::lol: :lol: :lol: It was funny Aces ;). But you two missed a bloody great Feral beer. The Tusk was astounding!!!
bundy wrote:Thanks for the detailed reply PP,
No worries bundy and your thinking is on the right track. I really don't see how you could have salvaged things any better than you did.

Funny you mention the milling of the wheat as I thought about that whilst at work on Friday. You are definitely asking the right questions. Wheat is a lot smaller than barley and with that high percentage of wheat in the grain bill, this could have been the source of your problem. I am a good mate of Nev's and he had a death in the family about the time ordered so next time you order such a large volume of wheat in the bill, remind him that it might cause problems.

As for state and territory stuff, I am actually from New South Wales. But, I was here in Perth during the days when you were drinking Redback at the Queens. An advanced search of my posts here on "Matilda Bay" or "America's Cup" might dig up some memories for you.

:P ;) :peace: ,
PP
Yeah sorry Pat, had friend over Saturday arvo which ended up being pretty big. Had a very quiet sunday at home. Im actually closer to the Feral brewery than I am to freo, so I'll just have to go to the source and check it out.
We're definitely overdue for a beer. Im an unemployed bum right now so Im brewing today to build up the stocks.

Sorry for the off topic ramble Bundy. What area of Perth are you based in?
Last edited by Aces high on 31 Mar 2014, 10:28, edited 1 time in total.

Post #15 made 10 years ago
Excellent! Thirds in a taxi for you two to come here or for me to come to you :party: :drink:. I'll contact both of you off-forum to see if we can get something organised this coming weekend.
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Post #16 made 10 years ago
AAAARGH!!!!! :o
Haven't brewed for a month, quite excited to put down a Vienna and Amarillo APA.
Heated water, reached strike temp, added grain. I'm away...

Did you spot it?
Where's the bag??????

AAAARGH!

Hanging on the line.

Just finished the decanting of the porridge into two cubes, the pouring it back into the kettle through the bloody bag.
Thank goodness I installed a tap about 5 brews ago, this would have been agony via the siphon.

So, I'm back on track 5 litres down, swapped from 90 min boil to 60 to reduce loss. Also about 30 min behind schedule, may get that back as well.

68 BIAB brews, one BWOABYI (brew without a bag you idiot) brew.

Hopefully I don't stuff anything else up today

Lemon
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Post #17 made 10 years ago
Well, not only did the f/up fairy visit at chez Lemon today. He brought his mate, the boil over fairy little b'st*rd visited in spades! every hop addition, whenever my back was turned. On and on and on, and on......

Finally got the wort in the cube (10 points under target, no surprise given the 30 min short boil).

Smacked the yeast, will oxygenate and pitch in the morning.

Should've brewed on Friday. At least then I'd have an excuse.

Lemon, 2 steadyers under my belt.
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Post #18 made 10 years ago
That's a cracker Lemon :lol: :lol: :lol:,

It's always super impressive when an error like that occurs at the beginning of the brew day - sober! Well done :salute:.

Just to make you feel a little better, one day here we were doing some stupid brew as much as you can in one day thing. I was crushing the grain pouring it from the sack into the mill and then emptying the bucket of crushed grain into another sack and then doughing in. Was doughing in the first of three brews and just at the end of me pouring it all in, noticed I had poured in the one bag that contained about ten kilos of uncrushed grain. Whoops!
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