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First BIAB brew day. NRB's APA - So far so good

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by bundy
After much reading and research I put down my first AG BIAB yesterday. I used a Buffalo 40L electric urn, with some Swiss Voile from Spotlight. A home made immersion chiller (which I also used an Ice bath recirculating with a pond pump for the final temp drop)

I used the BIABicus with NRB's All Amarillo APA Recipe as my first brew. So far it seems to have gone well and I think I have got pretty close or exceeded all the expected measurements. I also took lots of readings for Gravity and Boil Off rates throughout the day and although I haven't checked them hopefully in time that will be useful.

From all my reading on here I found lots of useful tips I used throughout the session. The three things I thought most useful were

BIABicus
Pulley for my Bag (Invaluable)
How to make your own Immersion chiller (Easy and for me invaluable although I know many No chill on here)

Things I learnt - I filled my Kettle right to the Brim for the Mash size I was doing and although I expected it to be right up there what happened was I got a sort of siphoning effect from my Voile draping over the side, and lost about 1 - 2 litres of water during the Mash.
Mash temp remained pretty good and started at 66 and after 90 mins I was at 64.5 degrees, so happy with that. To stop siphoning next time I will ensure the bag is wrapped over the lid so should hopefully prevent that happening. Having the Pulley meant it was easy to lift the bag slightly to raise the temp to 78 degrees for the 1 minute mashout. Also bag hung there easily after to drain by itself and so I could ring every last bit of goodness from it by squeezing it. Next time I might make up some type of Wooden clamp to help with the "bag squeeze" but was fine without it. Other thing with my Kettle is it cut out 3 or 4 times during the 90 min boil. Obviously reaching the cutout temp. I may modify to bypass this but I dont think it harmed anything as when it did cutout it switched off for 2 - 3 minutes before restarting for another 30 mins or so.

One thing I am not sure of with BIABicus is when calculating water volumes using Section "V' for head space, I think the calculator uses 20 degrees water temp other than the actual water temperature of the water/wort. As I have Solar HWS I used Hot water from that to put in the urn for the mash to reduce heating time but due to the expansion of Water volume may have been slightly out. TO get Volume I measured down from the top of the Kettle to calculate volume of water. I used section V of BIABicus to help me with that calculation but think this may have been slightly off as I presume that section "V" value is calculated volume at 20 degrees? (Can anyone confirm) ADMINNOTE: Please see post #7 for the answer to this question.

If BIABicus does use 20 degree temp then a nice feature for the wish list would be able to adjust Water temp to calculate the volume more accurately. I also used the headspace measurement throughout the boil to measure boil off rate and again the temp of the wort I presume is not taken into account here.


So in the end I have ended up with 22.5 litres into my Fermenter (Aimed for 22) with an SG of 1056 (Aimed for 1058) Took about 0.5L of Trube with this but figured it isnt all bad and will settle out nicely and from what I read the Yeasties love it anyway


Post mash Volume into Kettle was 32.5 l (aimed for 34L) but syphon loss during mash may account for some of this.
EOBV Ambient was 27 litres (aimed for 26)

I havent worked out Efficency yet on this brew (have to figure out how to do that) but from what I gather I lost a bit more water pre boil than I should of, but my evaporation rate was lower than the BIABicus estimate so they sort of cancelled each other out.

Now I just need to be patient and wait a month or so to find out how it all panned out - Cant wait
Last edited by bundy on 13 Mar 2014, 09:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #2 made 12 years ago
by mally
Well done bundy :thumbs:

I use the same boiler and occasionally have the same problems with cut-outs etc. I have never had any problems arise from it though (yet).
One thing that helped slightly is I insulated the thermistor probe with some silicone tubing (this renders the temp setting dial useless but I don't use that anyway). Bear in mind there are 2 types of cut-out on these, one where the light goes green, the other red. I would guess as yours is cycling it is going green?

I don't use any volume adjustments in the BIABacus for the Buffalo, it is fairly uniformly cylindrical, and the only areas that may be a problem are at the base where there are some indentations, but these wouldn't contribute much to volume (I would guess).

You may benefit from having a read of this.

The BIABacus does account for if you want to add hot water at strike. If you look under section K "your estimated volumes" it lists TWN the total water needed at 20C as well as SWN the strike water needed (which is what you would use in this instance).

If you want anybody to check/analyse your brew day, it would be worth seeing if you can get permission to post up your BIABcus file here for us to look over.

Other than that, congratulations, I would bet your beer will be fantastic!
Last edited by mally on 13 Mar 2014, 16:02, edited 1 time in total.
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I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
by bundy
HI Mally, Thanks for the reply, and I had read that link already thank you. Very useful info in there and certainly helped me understand things better especially some of the terminology.

You may have misread me though re the Water temp and measurements. I agree I dont do any adjustments for the shape of the Urn. I am more referring to the measurements I take during the BIAB process. eg After I remove the Bag I check my Volume, Also Volume Post Boil etc. For those measurements the Temp of the Wort is obviously higher than 20 degrees. When I measure down from the Top of my Urn I used section "V" in the BIABicus to put in the distance and it worked out the Volume I had left in the Kettle (I figure that measurement wont be quite accurate to what the Volume would be at 20 degrees.

Thats more what I was referring to, and seems (at least to me) the calcs for Boil off rate etc all rely on measurements taken at 20 degrees. Maybe though it doesn't matter that much as we are only talking 1/2 a litre or so in a full mash.

Getting the initial strike water was Ok in that I got up to Mash temp then re measured, but may also have been handy to know if at 50 degrees I needed X amount of water. But to be honest it was more the measurments taken during the Brew I thought may not be quite right.

Also re the Silicone on the Temp probe. I saw a post on that on Jim's Brewing Forum I think it was and did that exact today. But from the sounds of it that's only one sensor. (And not the right one) You were right mine was cutting out and the Green light was coming on. (One near the Power siwtch)

Do you know what the Mod is to fix that cut-out?

Cheers
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Post #4 made 12 years ago
by mally
Yep, seems I may have mis-interpreted your first post :smoke:

When I read that you may have lost 2 litres due to the syphon effect, I was thinking that you had filled your buffalo to the brim, then added the grains!
Can you explain this syphon effect a little more? I have never noticed anything like that, and it seems really excessive, but I am just curious.

A while ago I created a spreadsheet that gave volumes at 1C temp increments, but this was based on water not wort.
I don't think anything like this would ever be incorporated into the BIABacus, but I guess you could do some post event calculations if you felt it was necessary?

For insulating the probe/sensor I did this....
insulated probe.jpg
Sorry, this is stolen from JBK. I believe this is what is required to help stop that green light cycling.
To stop the red light, I believe you have to swap out the thermostsat for a higher rated one. :luck:
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Last edited by mally on 13 Mar 2014, 21:13, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
by brewdave
I have also had this syphon effect when I did a mash that filled my 19litre pot right to the very top (overflowed a bit as I put the final grain in).

In my case, as I had overflowed the pot the bag had no dry area between the top of the mash and where it draped over the sides of the pot. During the mash there was a constant slow syphon of liquid from the mash down the sides of the pot.

This only ever happened the once and I can only connect it to the bag being wet on the upside and the downside of the pot. If you know what I mean!

Post #6 made 12 years ago
by mally
Wow, never knew that. Sounds like "wicking".

I have occasionally dropped (accidentally) the top of the bag in the mash and it gets soaked, but after retrieving and draping back over the outside it has always dried out.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #7 made 12 years ago
by Pat
bundy wrote:One thing I am not sure of with BIABicus is when calculating water volumes using Section "V' for head space, I think the calculator uses 20 degrees water temp other than the actual water temperature of the water/wort.
[center]ADMINNOTE: There seems to be a little confusion here. The BIABacus does account for the different water and wort temperatures.[/center]
For example, look at Section K in the attached file which is a pure full volume BIAB. In other words, there are is no water held back form the mash. TWN is 39.12 litres. Total Water Needed is the amount of water you would put into your kettle if you were using cold water. SWN is the volume that water expands to once heated to mash temperature or, if you were filling your kettle from very hot solar hot water system, you would fill it with 39.9 litres. Let's look at the depth and headspace as well...

39.12 litres requires depth of 24.6 cm and a headspace of 20.4 cms in the example pot.
39.90 litres requires depth of 25.1 cm and a headspace of 19.9 cms in the example pot.

After the bag is pulled, we lose a lot of volume and then gain a very small amount as the wort swells further from mash temp to boiling. The BIABacus also accounts for this. And, then again at the end of the brew, you'll see a contraction between 'Volume at Flame Out - VFO' and 'Volume of Ambient Wort - VAWV'. The wort shrinks by approximately 4% during the chill to ambient. At all these points the depths and headspaces work on the temperature of the water or wort at that stage of the process.

So, your wish is already granted bundy :party:.

On another note, to avoid this wicking problem, hold back a bit of water from your mash and add it back in after you pull the bag. Use the third line of Section W to account for this. It is much better to have less in the mash than have your kettle brimming.

Finally, it is fine for you to post your file here. Try and fill out Sections L and M as best as you can.

Congratulations on your first brew :clap:,
Pat
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Last edited by Pat on 14 Mar 2014, 06:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 12 years ago
by bundy
Hi Pat,

Thanks for your explanation. That makes sense to me. So really it's a case of using Section "V" in conjunction with the relevant cell in Section "K" So depending if using Hot or cold water will depend on what measurement of head space you use as the values in section "K" allow for both scenarios of both hot and Cold water.

So in my case I filled with Solar HWS, I needed 37.37L of HSW which equated in my Urn to a headspace of ~ 5.1cm. If I was using cold water my headspace should have been 5.7cm (TWN - 36.64L) - got it! :thumbs:

I then mashed and pulled the bag. My measurements indicated a head space of 9.5cm (Now here I am not 100% sure if reading the right cell in section K) But from what you say I think it should be the figure shown in "VIK" that is relevant and from the sounds of things is already adjusted for Mash Temperature. My measurement showed a head space at Bag pull of 9.5cm (32.09L) and BIABicus estimated I should have had 34.09 litres. (I lost a bit of water to this syphon issue as mentioned which probably accounts for this)

Then at the end of the boil my head space measured at 20 degrees was 14.0cm. Being I measured once chilled I compare to EOBV-A (Ambient) which says I should have 25.67L of Wort, as compared to section "V" which says 14.0cm gives me 27.07L. If I measure at Flame Out I should look at Cell - EOBV.

So in that I presume my Boil off rate was lower than what is the standard in BIABicus but that's not really an issue at this stage (being my BIAB history is just 1 Brew!)

I've attached my file form the Brew day with measurements as I saw them if anyone wants to take a look and correct me where my thinking is wrong.

One last thing I wasn't sure of was how the Gravity readings are represented in BIABicus. For example Pre Lauter Gravity estimates 1.045/4
I understand the 1.045 but why the divide /4 symbol? What does that mean?

Also being we are using BIAB am I right to say that PLG and GIK will always be the same? Or am I missing a measuring step here?

For what it's worth if anyone wants to check my measurements where all adjusted using calculators and then put into BIABicus
They were -
PLG - 1.030 @ 64 degrees C (Calculated 1.049)
EOBG 1.020 @ 98 degrees C (Calculated 1.061)

Post Chill Remeasured SG @ 20 degrees C 1.058

Thanks again for everyone's help

Bundy
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Post #9 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Well done on your first brew bundy :thumbs:,

Looks like you are sorted on the volume temperature thing and are understanding most of that correctly. In the latest BIABacus, 'Volume into Kettle (VIK),' has been changed to 'Volume into Boil (VIB)' to remove any confusion as to what the volume is. So, it is not the volume after you remove your bag at mash tempo, it is the volume at the start of the boil which will be a tad higher assuming no water has been held back as a dilution before the boil or for use in an active sparge.

So VIK or VIB is at boiling point. Bear in mind, that measurements at boiling point are really dodgy as the wort is swirling around and 'breathing'. Just take it as a precursory check. Don't take it as, 'gospel'.

When you measured your end of boil headspace, I assume you didn't have a chiller sitting in the kettle as this will cause an incorrect volume reading. As for the evaporation, it will brew considerably from one brew to the next especially if you brew outside so don't expect, for one minute, to ever 'nail' that number.

As for the 1.054/4, what this means is 1.0544. Most brewing program reports just show the first three decimal places of a gravity number. This can cause problems in certain scenarios. For example, 1.054/6 and 1.055/4 would be displayed in most programs as 1.055. The / sign is trying to bring attention to this in the spreadsheet form. Perhaps a different separator could be used to make it less confusing? (I think we tried | but that just didn't look right - 1.054|6. See what I mean? :dunno:).

Before I open your actual file, the biggest problem I can see is the high temperatures you measured your gravities at. It looks like you missed it but there is a hydrometer correction tool on the second sheet of the BIABacus (right hand column). If you had typed those temps into that, it would have said, Cool your sample for a more accurate reading. You were lucky your hydro didn't bust at 98C. Phew!!!

Temperature corrected hydro readings are often very dodgy. Even ones at the right temperature are often affected by a variety of things I won't go into here. Bearing this in mind and the fact that you can't trust measurements on a single brew, let's have a look at your file...

Your File

After a quick glance over, Section P is the first thing I look at and your numbers are looking almost identical to the estimates. Don't expect to see them match that closely again. Always be happy to be within about 5%. All the numbers seem to confirm each other though even with the temperature correction thing I mentioned above.

On a closer look, there are a few numbers that worry me but most of these are explained by your wicking problem. The very low evaporation though may not be explained by that tough. Just make sure you aren't boiling with the lid on or doing a simmer. Good rolling boil with lid of is what we want.

If you avoid he wicking problem on your next brew by holding back say 5 litres of water and adding it before the boil, I think you'll be doing quite nicely.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 14 Mar 2014, 20:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #10 made 12 years ago
by bundy
Hi Pistol, thanks for taking the time to look over my info and explain BIABicus better for me (Thanks to everyone actually, hopefully in time I can repay the favour for others)

Re your Questions and Feedback

Yes when measuring I had the immersion Chiller removed so all good there.

Re Measuring my Gravities. Yes I too was a bit concerned on how the Hydrometer would react at heat, hence I measured in my Sample tube just in case. (didnt want glass breaking mid boil!) I used a little App I downloaded to my phone but nice to have this all in one place. I should have guessed you guys would have thought of that and put it into BIABicus. Just had a look at it then and some more handy tools to use.

Just on my SG readings though how do you guys take them post mash and Post boil? Do you chill your sample tubes down in an ice/water bath first?

To my file and my Evaporation rate. Using an Electric Urn I had it flat out for the entire period. It cut in and out a few times due to high temp safety tripping (I have ordered a part to bypass that to go from 120' to 130 degrees before it trips) but otherwise was on max throughout and to me worked fine. there was No lid in place either. I didn't have an overly vigorous boil as I have seen some Youtube Videos going off like Volcanoes, spitting and popping (Gas powered burners mind you) It was more a constant boil but far from vigorous. I use a Buffalo Urn which is very popular in the UK and form reports I read works well. The pic below is of a UK brewers boil and mine was very similar to that.
Image
Is this enough of a boil? I have read of some people "Floating" Cake tins in their urns reducing the surface area that is exposed to Air (Thus reducing heat loss)to make their Boil more aggressive but my thinking was the Boil off rate isn't as important as ensuring it is boiling - possibly I am wrong though?

My Urn has also been insulated on the Walls with AirCell Insulation so its wrapped up nice and tight. (hence the pretty good Mash temp consistency) Which helps the boil be a bit bigger than that pic shows. (winter boils may be another story though)

And as for the wicking Tip - thanks good idea will definately leave a bit more headspace next time :)

Anyway thanks again. Appreciate your time.

Bundy
Last edited by bundy on 15 Mar 2014, 09:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #11 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
No worries bundy,

I've been working on the BIABacus today and have built in even more restrictive warnings on temperature adjustment of hydrometer samples. It really shouldn't be our job though should it? It should be the job of the wholesalers and retailers to take a little care in supplying a set of instructions that would have at least as much care as shown in many single posts on this site.

(This is so good approaching fifty years of age. You can be a grumpy old man and don't need an excuse. Nice!!! :party: :drink:.)

Okay on your hot gravity samples, have some coffee mugs sitting in your freezer. Grab a mug-ful of wort and pour it into one of those frozen coffee mugs. Cover with plastic wrap, put it back in the freezer and wait for it to cool and then pour it into your hydro jar. Depending on the stage of the brewing process, you can pour it back into the kettle or fermentor after you take your reading.

Taking readings is an absolute PITA in home brewing. There are many difficulties that you never hear about (except here). What I am trying to say is, "Take them when you are starting out as much as possible. Doing this will teach you how much to rely on them." I think you really need to go through this process of learning. It will make you lazier, faster.

I don't like it when people advise people to be lazy straight up though. It's like me not listening to you at all and just saying, "Any phone plan you go on will be fine."

This site and the BIABacus enable you to get on the right plan either straight away or at least as fast as possible. It won't take a year to discover you have been boiling with your lid on or taking gravity readings at incorrect temps or using the incorrect amount of hops to begin with.

You taking the time to take volume and gravity measurements on your first brews, into and out of the boil and into your fermentor provides a valuable mechanism for others to hear and then advise you correctly.

So, keep it up ;).

...

Boil looks fine to me Bundy :peace:,
PP
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Post #12 made 12 years ago
by bundy
Question for all those with far better developed palates than mine, as to what NRBs recipe reminds you of?

Many of you I am sure have brewed NRBs All Amarillo recipe being it is the default in Biabicus.

I'm just sitting enjoying one at the moment. It reminds me remarkably of a SNPA

Anyone else think this?

Being it's my first ever biab brew I don't have a lot to compare with and had a few small issues on the day. Either way I am enjoying it a lot but in so many ways I don't trust my palate and just pondering what others think it may be similar to from the commercial world?
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Post #13 made 12 years ago
by BobBrews
bundy, :clap:

Congratulations for a good thread. I am sure it will help a lot of new brewers over time. As too the outcome of your beers taste. I really can't help much because your under developed palate is probably still better than mine? I did read you saying "Either way I am enjoying it a lot....." That to me, is all that matters. You did a right smart job of it and your enjoying the fruit of your labors. Kudos to you!

Comparing beers is like comparing children. Hard to do. One day one is good and in favor and one day the other is better. Great beers from the U.S. that are shipped to the land down under are degraded by the time they reach there. You wonder what all the fuss was about? So it is the other way around coming to the States.

I had one of the best beers in the States a while back and although it was OK? It was disappointing. Later that year I went to a high class restaurant and they had a fresh keg on tap. What a difference! Even with my damaged taste buds I quaffed a excellent beer. Now I know what they were talking about! Naturally because I was at my Mums 90th birthday we took her to a swanky place. The beers were twice the price! But I could afford three and I relished them. (the bill for the two of us and my share of Moms dinner was $250 yikes!!)

So what and I saying? (actually I forgot the point about 50 words ago?) Well, Maybe it was this? Don't worry about getting any taste perfect. A beer that you are comparing too may not be at 100% peak. So you are shooting at a moving target! Enjoy your beer and savor the fact that you did it! You will brew more! Some better, some worse. You did something that others only dream of. I am excited for you and I know you will be brewing up a storm and helping others here with your new found expertise! :thumbs:
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Post #14 made 12 years ago
by bundy
I love the way you think Bob. :salute:

All beer is good, but beer you have raised and nurtured yourself is so, so much better!

:thumbs:

Hats off to you and all that are sharing this knowledge with us. I too as I gain knowledge will one day pass this on to my son, and I hope he too will one day pass it on to his son. (Not before they are 18 years of age though, or 21 for those of you in the States)

:lol:

EDIT: just cracked a SNPA left over from a birthday gift. Nothing like NRBs apa. :headhit:
But all good. I like them both.
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Post #15 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
The all amarillo ale often reminds me of a very balanced version of LCPA so I can understand your thinking perfectly bundy.
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