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First BIAB done - Success!

Post #1 made 12 years ago
by doomy86
Yesterday we did our first BIAB brew and thanks to the BIBAcus spread sheet it went great!

I would like to thank everyone who invested time and brainpower and made this possible.


There were three things i would still like to improve in our brewing process, and maybe you can help us:

1. Temperature Readings

We did our temp readings with a infrared thermometer on the outside of the urn, from experience with our previus 3V brews this represents the most accurate reading.
But with BIAB it was a little bit different, after 30min into the mash, i went to stir and measure the temperature and it was very difficoult to get a accurate reading, so i heated the mash a little bit too much ~68C.

I thought about maybe using a PID + PT100 sensor or to order a fast and accurate digital Thermometer like the ThermoWorks

How are you measuring ? Is there a better way?

2. Transfer to Fermenter

The Transfer was done with a copper siphon we already used in our previous brews, its a copper tube with the same circumference as our kettle, its closed on one end and has many small holes drilled on the bottom side.

So we made a whirlpool and siphoned the hot wort right in to the fermenter. But toward the end, a lot of trub got sucked into the tube and we ended up with too much trub in the fermenter.

Is it better to cool the worth in the kettle and transfer it cold, what could be the downsides?
What better can i use to transfer the wort to the fermenter?

3. Sanitise

At the moment, we always used chlorine bleach to sanitise our equipment. It works great but its always a hassle because you have to be very careful to not stain you clothes because this stuff is pretty aggressive. Another problem is that you have to use so much water th rinse everything off. I like the smell of it though :)

I did not find any norinse sanitiser, what else could i use?

Thanks again folks!

:thumbs:
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Last edited by doomy86 on 06 Sep 2013, 13:48, edited 2 times in total.
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First BIAB done - Success!

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by Lars
Congrats Doomy,
On question 1, I use an STC1000 but I'm having doubts about it lately so I'd like to hear answers to that too.
Q2. I would always cool in boiler before transfer using my immersion chiller. Don't worry about a little trub in the fermenter it's never done my beers any harm. You can adjust volumes to compensate if you worried about loss of volume

Q3. Using a sanitiser that u need to rinse is madness in my opinion. If u can't get Starsan make your own. Original Charley Tally recipe is 1oz bleach,1 oz vinegar, 5 gallons water. Scale recipe as you require. This is a no rinse sanitiser. NEVER MIX BLEACH AND VINEGAR TOGETHER DIRECTLY AS THE REACTION WILL GENERATE CHLORINE GAS AND MAY KILL YOU, but it works great:)
I add bleach to bucket, add water, stir in vinegar last.
I meant to say, you must use 'thin bleach'- there's no added scent, and distilled malt vinegar.

Post #4 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Good on you/congrats doomy :peace:,

...

On the temp readings, an infra-red can be a bit wild depending on the surface you are reflecting off. Any temp reading method though can be wild unless you agitate the mash just before taking the reading. Hot and cold 'pockets' can be pretty common.

I suspect though that your main temperature problem was that, with BIAB, you have the option of applying heat. You did this and then found that you over-shot your target. This is very common and I still do it myself often. You apply heat whilst stirring and it keeps saying 64C or whatever and then suddenly it moves to 65 C (let's say that is your target), you turn off the flame but three minutes later it reads 67 C :roll:.

I think there is a long essay that could be written on why this can happen in some equipment set-ups. The long and short of that essay would be that if your equipment is thick and heavy, you are more likely to over-shoot your targets when re-heating. (That's one of the reasons why the BIABacus has a strike adjustment factor). Anyway, tricky stuff.

...

When it comes to trub management, there are many options but one of the best options is to use your BIAB bag as a hop sock. If your BIAB bag has the right porosity of 30-40 threads per cm then, after you pull it form the mash and drain it, run it under a tap to clean it and then suspend it n your kettle and add your hops to it as required. A BIAB bag is an excellent filter providing millions of holes over a large space. Compare that to the relatively large and few holes in your copper pipe :dunno:.

It's hard for me to say without seeing your set-up in real life but I think on your next brew go the BIAB bag and your copper pipe. The BIAB bag should definitely stop your copper from getting clogged.

...

There are massive problems with chlorine bleach. In my early days I used to use it but I was very careful in my quantities and knowledge but still, in hindsight, was doing things incorrectly. For a start, a lot of newbies will use too much bleach. Secondly, they put that into hot water which immediately destroys it's sanitising power. Thirdly, they think it acts as a cleaner but in fact, it can add a layer of chemical to your vessels which can harbour critters for later action. These are just some of the problems.

The recipe that Lars mentioned above (use cold water) I think is okay for a no-rinse sanitiser. His warning is definitely correct. I would never use it though as it lacks other chemical additives that help get into 'tight' spots.

There's always two totally distinct parts to cleaning and sanititsation. 'One-stop' solutions to cleaning and sanitisation always have a medium to long-term risk. I'm in a rush now but I think this may be explained in this BIABrewer post.

More info on cleaning and sanitation can also be seen/heard in this BeerSmtih podcast.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 06 Sep 2013, 19:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
by Lars
Hi Skink, just seeign where youre from now. I went to college down there years ago, for 2 years. Great town!. The thin bleach I used was usually tesco, less that a Euro for a litre. It should be available everywhere, supervalue etc...
See http://www.tesco.ie/groceries/Product/D ... =260550096

w.r.t. trub management I dont think I agree fully with PP. I like to leave my leaf hops floating around as I think they filter certain amount of break material out and reduce trub in the FV, assuming youre using some sort of filter manifold.

Post #6 made 12 years ago
by mally
I am not necessarily recommending the technique, but occasionally I will use both methods.

Hops are in a BIAB bag during boil. I squeeze the hops dry then place on a funnel that is sat in my no chill cube.
I then syphon the wort (trub & all) through the "bag of hops" into the cube.

If you want less kettle to fermenter loss (KFL) and are not bothered about the trub in the fermenter you can squeeze again (some trub will still be retained though). Or just remove the bag when it stops dripping.

One added benefit of this is you have an option to add fresh hops to the bag as you drain the kettle (like a hop back, but hot).

You will have to find a method that suits you, but there are many techniques out there to try.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #7 made 12 years ago
by Yeasty
doomy86 wrote:its a copper tube with the same circumference as our kettle, its closed on one end and has many small holes drilled on the bottom side.

So we made a whirlpool and siphoned the hot wort right in to the fermenter
I think from what you are describing, the whirlpool is your problem. By whirl-pooling you are concentrating your trub and hop debris into the centre of your vessel with the heavier hops closer to the centre. Whilst your hop filter is fitted around the sides the first thing to hit it is the fine lighter trub which is blocking your holes. You need the hop debris to act as a filter.

My syphon "see Here " works fine and I don't whirlpool. see post #16.

:luck:

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 07 Sep 2013, 16:35, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #9 made 12 years ago
by doomy86
Thank you very much!

1. I ordered a Thermoworks Thermapen, found one for 50$ on ebay. They seem to be the best thermometers out there. Super fast readings and very accurate.

2. The pipe does not get clogged, its just that much of the milky trub is getting sucked in the fermenter. I made some hop socks with the same material as the BIABag and we used them on the last brew.

3. Will be listening to the Podcast thanks! I'm thinking about getting my hands on some Phosphoric acid and mixing my own Sanitizer. Starsan is not available here in Switzerland, but we can get almost all chemicals in the drug store.

Or maybe i could use Sodium carbonate as a Base Cleaner, and then use Vinegar or diluted Phosphoric Acid as a acid cleaner. What do you think?

Here a small list with possible cleaning agents:

Base Cleaner:
Sodium hydroxide
Sodium hypochlorite(Bleach) ?
Sodium carbonate

Acid Cleaner:
Phosphoric Acid
Sodium bisulfate
Vinegar
Citric acid

Sanitizer:
Peracetic acid
Sodium hypochlorite(Bleach)
Hydrogen peroxide
Sodium percarbonate
Isopropyl alcohol
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Post #10 made 12 years ago
by Aces high
don't worry about the trub getting into the fermenter. By all means try to get as little in as possible, but when you cold chill your fermenter it all drops to the bottom anyway and you'll end up with crystal clear beer.

As for sanitizers I have starsan, but also use iodine. You mix it 10ml per litre of water in a spray bottle, and spray everything down. Its no rinse and you should be able to get it from the drug store. Ive used it for 3 years and never had an infection. I just finally finished the first bottle of it after 3 years and probably 50 batches of beer and hundreds of kegs cleaned.

Post #12 made 12 years ago
by Yeasty
doomy86 wrote:2. The pipe does not get clogged, its just that much of the milky trub is getting sucked in the fermenter. I made some hop socks with the same material as the BIABag and we used them on the last brew.
Whilst I agree with Ace, the point I was trying to make was that by whirpooling you are allowing the lighter trub to get through as this is accumulated on the outer edges of a whirlpool cone and will therefore be first down the syphon when the cone starts to collapse. Where as is you just left the wort to settle, hop debris and fine trub would hit the syphon at the same time. The hops would start to act as a filter and after recirculation a few jugs ( if you want to) you wort should run clear.

How did you get on with the hop socks ? did it make a difference. I've never bothered myself as I've never really seen the need.
Aces high wrote:but also use iodine. You mix it 10ml per litre of water in a spray bottle
I dilute at a ration of 1.25ml/L and this is using Videne :think: are you right there Ace ? do you mean 1.0ml/L

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 10 Sep 2013, 20:37, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #14 made 12 years ago
by Yeasty
I've used mine with pellets and it worked fine. I suppose it depends on your hole/slot size.

Lars: have you used yours with pellets ?
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First BIAB done - Success!

Post #15 made 12 years ago
by Lars
Yeasty wrote:I've used mine with pellets and it worked fine. I suppose it depends on your hole/slot size.

Lars: have you used yours with pellets ?
I have yeasty, I think I remember it sticking once with a lot if pellets but its no problem with a mixture if cones and pellets. The openings on mine are a few mm, the width of a junior hacksaw blade. Also mine has far less surface area than yours. But overall I'm delighted with it . I went through a load of different DIY strainers until I settled on this one
Last edited by Lars on 11 Sep 2013, 13:51, edited 2 times in total.

Post #16 made 12 years ago
by Lylo
doomy86 wrote:Thanks Aces!

So you would continue to cool the wort in the fermenter..
Would there be any dis/advantages, cooling it directly in the pot?
doomy6, I think aces was talking about that crash chilling after fermentation ,not the chilling of the wort before pitching.
Last edited by Lylo on 11 Sep 2013, 15:43, edited 2 times in total.
AWOL

Post #18 made 12 years ago
by doomy86
Thanks for your help guys!

I had to throw away the whole batch :(

Got an infection in the fermenting process, when we wanted to bottle the beer yesterday i noticed a strange sour taste and smell.
It was not the CO2 there was something else living in that beer.
I suspect the infection came from the fermenter valve, which we did not clean properly.

The immediate steps were:
I threw away all unneccessary or uncleanable equipment like the copper siphon.
To do it properly next time, i invested some research in cleaning solutions.
Sent samples of the liquid to a lab.

Small update on cleaning/sanitation

Base Cleaner
Used to clean organic stuff

Sodium hydroxide NaOH
Very strong stuff, used in big breweries

Sodium hypochlorite(Bleach) Liquid
Cheap but to agressive, i always have to watch out because it produces ugly stains on clothing

Sodium carbonate Na2CO3 Solid
My choice, cheap, not that aggressive and it cleans well


Acid Cleaner
Used to clean the anorganic stuff

Nitric acid HNO3
Very strong stuff, used in big breweries

Phosphoric Acid
Worth to try out if the citric acid is to weak

Sodium bisulfate NaHSO4

Acetic acid or Vinegar CH3COOH Liquid
I just hate the smell of this stuff, i will never use it again

Citric acid C6H8O7 Solid
I will try this next time, little bit worried that its not strong enough


Sanitizer
Remember, even sterile dirt remains dirt

Peracetic acid
Very strong, but not that stable in diluted form

Sodium hypochlorite(Bleach) Liquid
Its cheap and strong but i wont use it again

Hydrogen peroxide Liquid
Expensive / not stable if diluted

Sodium percarbonate Solid
Not stable in liquid / diluted form

Isopropyl alcohol Liquid
I will try this stuff on the next brew, should remain relatively stable in a spray bottle

Iodophor
I don't like this stuff because i once tried a beer which smelled horribly of iodine, i think the brewer used it as no rinse sanitizer
Or maybe he did the iodine test directly in the malting pot ;)
Last edited by doomy86 on 12 Sep 2013, 16:14, edited 2 times in total.
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