First BIAB: Mistakes, Observations, Things to Improve

Post #1 made 13 years ago
First off, my recipe was for a Red Ale consisting of

6.5 lbs American Pale Malt
1.5 lbs Vienna
1 lb White Wheat
8 oz Crystal 120°L
8 oz Belgian Special B

(mash temp 152°)

3.5 to 4 AAU of Mt. Hood
3.5 to 4 AAU of Mt. Hood
1 to 1.5 oz of Mt. Hood

Yeast: White Labs 01 California Ale
OG: 1.050, FG: 1.013, IBU: 27, SRM: 18, ABV: 4.8%


I decided to go with Cascade since I wasn't sure what Mt. Hood tasted like anyhow and I have an abundance of local, fresh Cascade to use up.

I used the Simple BIAB Calculator to estimate my starting volume of water. I wanted 5.5 gallons of output, so I put in 5.5 as finished beer gallons and .5 as fermentation trub gallons. I also gave it a boil off amount of 1 gal/hour and I was doing a 90 min boil. It gave me a starting water amount of 8.86 gallons (10.18 inches). The instructions say to lop off AT LEAST an inch of water (not sure why it doesn't say it in gallons, which would be more helpful) if one plans to squeeze the bag, which I did.

So by cross multiplying with 10.18" -> 8.86 gallons = 9.18" -> x gallons I came up with x = 7.98 gallons.

So I started off with 8 gallons of hot water and boiled up to 165 degrees F. The calculator actually told it me it should be 156.6 degrees F, but my keggle heated up too fast (first time using it I guess?). So I added the grains in at 165 F and noted my mash temp were about 154 F, which were acceptable to me. I kept taking temperature readings with my probe thermometer and found the edges and bottom of my keggle were higher than the middle, so I stirred it a bit until the middle was about 152. Not having a lid for my keggle, I left it open.

About 15 minutes later, the middle had dropped to about 148 F and so I mixed it up again. Got it to about 150 F and left it alone.

10 minutes later, we were down to 145 F, so I decided to turn the burner back on.

I kept taking readings and stirring, but couldn't seem to get back up past 150 F, so I kept running the burner. BIG MISTAKE!!

After only another 5 or 10 mins, I was at about 163 F in the middle and 170 F around the sides and on the bottom. I had overshot my mash temp by a TON!!

I turned off the burner immediately. The only thing I thought of to do 20 mins later (after stirring vigorously) was to add some ice cubes, about a quart worth. Thet brought the temp down to about 160 F but I couldn't get it down any further, so I ended the mash at about 160-ish F. :(

After the boil and adding a Whirlfloc tablet with 15 min remaining, I drained off the wort to a cube and left it overnight to cool.

Tonight, I racked the wort from my cube to my 6-gallon glass carboy and dry hopped with 1 oz. of Cascade. I forgot to add the hops at the beginning, so I added them in to the top when I added the yeast. I actually had about a gallon of thicker/darker grain residue (trub?) left in the cube after filling my carboy nearly full.

My OG was 1.042, a tad lower than the 1.050 this recipe claims to get.

QUESTIONS:
----------

Should I have had NOTHING left in the cube if I measured and mashed correctly?

Is it ok to dry hop on top of the wort?

Is it ok to dry hop directly into the wort, without using a mesh bag?

Should I have taken some water out of the keggle and added it back into my mash grains to even out the temps? (like this guy: http://www.stempski.com/biab.php)

Is 1.042 an acceptable OG for a beer?

Would the high mash temp cause it to not be so red? (It looks like an amber ale, maybe slightly darker)

Post #2 made 13 years ago
daddyo,

Your beer will be drinkable? You made some rookie mistakes. You started off fine by bringing the temperature up to 165 and adding your cool grains. That's the way it is suppose to work! 154 is great! If you are shooting for 148 or 152 than adjust your starting temperature! You fiddled around and messed up your temps going too high. Been there done that! 80 percent of the conversion is done in the first 15 minutes? (guess) So all that up and down temperatures probably caused some of your wort to be unfermentable and that only causes a sweeter beer with (better) mouth feel!

You forgot the bittering hops! Hops "must be boiled" to extract the bitterness that counteracts the cloying sweetness that the malt brings to the beer. I am afraid that dumping the hops into the wort while fermenting will not get the results you desire. Dry hopping is done (after) fermentation is complete. The action of a vigorous fermentation will scrub off the aroma of the hops leaving you with nothing. No bitterness, no aroma!

Maybe you could boil a little water with hops and add it to the wort for bitterness? Maybe you could add more hops after fermentation for aroma? Maybe you could just hope for a good fermentation and leave it alone and hope for the best. I have totally screwed up every temperature and had bad timming of hops and still got a drinkable beer! I am hoping the best for you.

P.S I am
Should I have taken some water out of the keggle and added it back into my mash grains to even out the temps? (like this guy: http://www.stempski.com/biab.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Last edited by BobBrews on 30 Apr 2012, 20:57, edited 3 times in total.
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tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV

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Post #4 made 13 years ago
Hey Daddyo,

Congrats on your first BIAB...don't worry, you will get plenty of expert help on here for your next one!!
Higher mash temps will basically result in less fermentables...so that will throw your OG out a bit.

Without answering any of your specific questions, my advice for next time would be to get some good insulation on your keggle during the mash. I heat the water to strike temp and after raining in the grain, I adjust by adding hot water or cold water as required (always have an electric kettle on hand). Once you get 150F or whatever you want, stir the crap out of it, stick a lid on, wrap it in a woolen blanket and then put a sleeping bag or something around the whole lot. I try not to fiddle with it too much during the mash.
Last weekend I brewed at around 16c(~60F) and only lost 1 degree over the whole 90min mash.

Tapping water from your keggle to add back to the top of the mash makes sense...I dont' have a tap...hence the kettle on hand :).

For aroma, Dry hopping on top of the wort without a bag should be OK.
Depending on how you transfer to bottle/keg, you may get a bit more hop debris.

As Bob suggested, you could try boiling up some hops, cool it down and then add to the fermenter.
But that might risk infection...and last time I boiled hops in the kitchen, my missus nearly banned me :roll: .

Well that's the limit to my knowledge so far...good luck mate :drink: .

Jake.

Post #5 made 13 years ago
daddyo wrote:QUESTIONS:
----------

Should I have had NOTHING left in the cube if I measured and mashed correctly? Hmm, not really sure what you mean here.

Is it ok to dry hop on top of the wort? Yep, perfectly OK.

Is it ok to dry hop directly into the wort, without using a mesh bag? Yep. In fact its probably easier since you're using a carboy.

Should I have taken some water out of the keggle and added it back into my mash grains to even out the temps? (like this guy: http://www.stempski.com/biab.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) That's one good way of doing it.

Is 1.042 an acceptable OG for a beer? Certainly acceptable. Just not quite what you were aiming for.

Would the high mash temp cause it to not be so red? (It looks like an amber ale, maybe slightly darker) Don't really know. I'd wait to pass judgement until fermentation is complete. That has a way of changing the color.
Regarding your mash temps...You're probably OK. You had the mash at decent temps for 25min or so. Like Bob said, a lot of the conversion happens quickly. Were you stirring the mash while applying heat? You should ALWAYS stir while applying heat.

And next time, if you hit your mash temp, I'd just leave it alone. Stirring the mash will cause it to lose heat quicker. If you really wanna check the temp, give it a quick stir to even out the temps or drain some wort out the bottom and pour it on top.
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 30 Apr 2012, 21:45, edited 3 times in total.

Post #6 made 13 years ago
Lylo,

My hop vodka http://www.stempski.com/hop_vodka.php is good for everything! Cures most deadly diseases or maladies. However that claim be clouded by overuse on my part. The aroma extracted with my screwy method would give back the aroma but not the needed bitterness. Daddyo's beer might make it? If it is to sweet anything could deaden the sweetness. Adding something tart could create a "Sour beer"? Nobody will admit that they really know if it's a sour beer or infected!
Last edited by BobBrews on 30 Apr 2012, 21:52, edited 3 times in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV

Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #7 made 13 years ago
BobBrews wrote:You forgot the bittering hops!
Sorry, I forgot to mention I added the bittering hops at boil and the next hops addition at 15 minutes left (with the Whirlfloc). Then I added a 3rd 1oz. helping when I racked it from my cube last night, but I'm wondering if I should have waited until fermentation was done for that 3rd bit of hops...

Otherwise, the yeast seems to be going crazy today. The airlock it bubbling a lot. I used Safale 04. There's a ton of krausen forming and I'm hoping the little head space I left at the top of the carboy will be enough. The last thing I need is a blowoff.

There are also lots of little floaties in there. Grain particles perhaps? The hops particles from directly adding the ounce? fish swimming around in there? (kidding)

Thanks for the reply and kind words, Bob. I'll be brewing on Friday or Saturday again and hope to get my beer a little closer to its designed recipe.

I'll also pay closer attention to my mash temp, now that I know my keggle a bit better.
Last edited by daddyo on 30 Apr 2012, 23:20, edited 3 times in total.

Post #8 made 13 years ago
BrickBrewHaus wrote:QUESTIONS:
----------

Should I have had NOTHING left in the cube if I measured and mashed correctly? Hmm, not really sure what you mean here.
Brick,

What I meant was that I ended up with about 7 gallons (started with 8, added a quart of ice), which makes sense since my boil off was about 1 gallon/hour. My cube holds just over 7 and my carboy is at 6 gallons, so I came up a gallon too high and had to dump the creamy brown gunk at the bottom of the cube (a gallon worth) after racking into my carboy last night.
Last edited by daddyo on 30 Apr 2012, 23:28, edited 3 times in total.

Post #10 made 13 years ago
BrickBrewHaus wrote:So you're asking whether or not you should've transfered the trub to your carboy? That's a matter of opinion. Some do and some don't.
Kind of.

I was under the impression I should have 6 gallons in my cube to transfer directly to my carboy when cooled, with nothing left in my cube. 6 gallons -> 6 gallons. With that line of thinking, it tells me I over-estimated my starting water amount by a little less than a gallon (since I added about a quart of ice cubes during my mash).

Ironically, my LHBS guy told me I should never start with the full amount of water for BIAB and that I should use 1.5 quarts per lb. of grain (15 quarts in my case) for mash, not squeeze the bag when pulling it out after mash (for fear of tannins - yes, I laughed inside when he told me that), and then sparge with 1.5 gallons or so of 170 F water and add whatever comes from sparging to my boli, then top off my boil at 5.5 gallons or whatever. I didn't want the hassle of sparging, so I squeezed what I thought was "the hell" out of my bag (my forearms are weak!) by mainly twisting it and then pushing it together.
Last edited by daddyo on 30 Apr 2012, 23:47, edited 3 times in total.

Post #11 made 13 years ago
daddyo,

Trub looks (yucky) to quote the grand kids. We naturally don't want that in our beer. It looks nasty and we seem to want clear beers! I went to great lengths when I started brewing to keep it out. All I was doing in reality was wasting time and giving a infection a time and place to start. Some fancy-schmancy chemists recently found out that trub is good for fermentation and makes for a healthy fermentation. So do what you can within reason to keep some of the trub (Hot break - cold break - hop residue) out of the wort but don't freak out if you dump the whole thing in!

When I no chill my beer I bet 50% of the trub goes in the cube and then 50% of the cube residue goes in the bucket. So since I don't do numbers I am guessing that I normally have 25% trub in my fermentation. My beer is fine and dandy no "yuckness" here!
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tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV

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Post #12 made 13 years ago
What Bob said. When I no-chill, ALL of the trub (usually @ a gallon or more) goes into the cube. I then siphon the clear wort off of the trub and into a fermenter when I am ready to pitch. Never worried about getting any in my fermenters though, it all settles out in the end.
WWBBD?
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #13 made 13 years ago
I would try to keep hop residue out. The dark brown trub. If you ferment on a large amount of used up hops your beer can have a hop oil residue whIch I prefer not to have in my beer

Yes, I've side by sided it
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

Post #15 made 13 years ago
The results from my second attempt at BIAB are much better, although I under-estimated the starting water amount and thus ended up with 5.25 gallons in my no-chill CUBE right now.

I was able to keep a consistent mash temp of about 149-150 F, but I was really trying for 152 F. Oh well, I can work with that!

Right now my batch is in my cube cooling off. Tomorrow I'll rack to my fermenter and pitch the yeast and be done with it. Hopefully the trub won't be too much and I'll get close to 5 gallons out of this batch!

Should I have added a little water to the cube?

Post #16 made 13 years ago
No just go with what you got.BTW if your cube has a spigot on it,it works great to set the cube (while waiting for the cool down) into a position that you don't have to disturb anything when transferring,just get your bucket or (carboy and large funnel)positioned under the tap and let it flow.The trub will stay beneath the spigot hole.
AWOL

Post #18 made 13 years ago
Hi Lylo and BobBrews,

What kind of container do you use for No Chill wort cooling? I'm in Calgary so maybe Lylo can suggest a brand of water container. Do you pour the wort into the sanitized cube or container immediately after the boil%

Thanks

Valvefan

Post #20 made 13 years ago
Valvefan wrote:Hi Lylo and BobBrews,

What kind of container do you use for No Chill wort cooling? I'm in Calgary so maybe Lylo can suggest a brand of water container. Do you pour the wort into the sanitized cube or container immediately after the boil%

Thanks

Valvefan
I've poured mine directly from the boil twice now. I thought for sure my Aquatainer was gonna melt! ;) But it's held up and it's by far the easiest way to cool my wort and deal with it at my leisure the next day or two.
Last edited by daddyo on 08 May 2012, 09:54, edited 3 times in total.

Post #21 made 13 years ago
I have bought my no chills from US Plastics. http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23285 Round Winpac
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=24733 rectangular Winpac

I have contacted the manufacture and they said that the containers are good up to 250 degrees Fahrenheit! Since boiling is 212 even with my poor math skills I figure I am safe? I have not tried the rectangular winpacs. Maybe the round would work better for cleaning for us? I bought two extra screw caps when I ordered my winpac "Cubes?". I drilled a hole in the center of the cap and added a airlock! Now I can cool it in my no chill as usual and then add the yeast and just change the caps! No chill and fermentation in the same cube without a bucket or a carboy!

I have tried this and not only did I ferment in my no chill cube I kegged from it and then dumped a second wort (from another cub) into my cube and reused the yeast cake!. It was the same beer with a slight modification. I added some peated malt for a touch of smoke! I have been drinking this beer every night for two weeks! I love that tiny touch of smoke!

Cleaning up after two fermentation's in one cube was not as difficult as I thought it would be. The second fermentation blew out the airlock because I forgot my Fermcap! all in all, I will try this again with another beer soon! I do wish they came slightly larger?
airlock_caps.jpg
Airlock-no-chill.jpg
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Last edited by BobBrews on 08 May 2012, 20:00, edited 4 times in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV

Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

http://cheesestradamus.com/ Brewers challenge!
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #22 made 13 years ago
I get mine from Wal Mart."Blue aquatainers."As to the pouring, :argh: That is a heavy reeaaly hot kettle!I use a silicone siphon hose,I have a jiggler thingy on the end but it's not necesaary.
Just fill the hose with water and keeping both ends evenly vertical put your finger over the end that will go into the cube.
Lower the kettle end into the kettle,keeping the other end low.
Lower the cube end down close to the cube and take your finger off.
Let the water run onto the ground until the wort appears.(very quickly)!
Point it into the cube and let it rip.(If you have any help aruond it helps for the first couple of tries.
I am sure Neal at The Vineyard south will have the silicone tubing,although he tends to sneer a little at BIAB.If he doesn't have it HopDawgs in Vernon is a great place for supplies!
AWOL

Post #23 made 13 years ago
My last brew day was all Aussie style. BIAB and No Chill. No Chill really shortens the brew day! I whirlpooled the kettle before draining through a ball valve and silicone tube and still got a fair amount of trub in the cube. I transferred much of the trub with the wort into the fermentor.

Is this typical?

Valvefan

Post #24 made 13 years ago
Valvefan wrote:My last brew day was all Aussie style. BIAB and No Chill. No Chill really shortens the brew day! I whirlpooled the kettle before draining through a ball valve and silicone tube and still got a fair amount of trub in the cube. I transferred much of the trub with the wort into the fermentor.

Is this typical?

Valvefan
Depends on how you transfer. You can just dump it all into the FV or you can siphon carefully and only transfer clear wort. The yeast don't care either way. ;)

---Todd
Last edited by thughes on 20 Jun 2012, 22:58, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #25 made 13 years ago
If you use a cube with a spigot,after transferring lay it on its side so that the spigot is in position to open.By the time the wort has cooled,most of the trub will be settled to the bottom,below the spigot,and very little will carry over to the fermentor.
I also found that when I open the spigot into a large sanitized funnel I get a lot of splashing and hopefully aeration.
AWOL
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