Hi all,
I have read a lot of posts and I still cant figure out what I am doing wrong so I will just ask instead of trying to find the answers. Im using brew mate software. The first Biab i did a few days ago was a IPA which was ment to end with a batch size of 19lt I started with 25lt cold water and ended up with 13lt in the fermentor and 3.8lt of muck in the keggle and my OG was spot on at 1058 but my end liquid was not correct if I added the trub I still only had 16.8lt so I assummed it was because I did not use a lid during any of my processes, my effiiciency while including the trub was 62%. I hit my mash temp of 66deg for 60 mins spot on no temp loss, but im using a 3 ring burner that takes a while to heat the water.
Second BIAB today I went for a 23lt (I know I have changed my amounts but some simple calculations can work out the difference between a 19lt brew and 23lt so I assumed) So I started with 32.5lt and put 1lt into the loss to trub and chiller section expecting a better result? Anyways I ended up with 20.8lt in my fermentor and 5.5lt of mess in the keggle and my Og was 1.040 it was ment to be 1.048 I got an efficiency of 64 including the trub (not realy sure how to measure efficiency). Clearly you end up with a lot of trub in BIAB. I did a Beta rest at 61deg for 30 mins when it should have been 60 deg for 30 mins, and an alpha rest at 71deg for 30 mins when it should have been 70 deg for 30 mins, I assume the 71 degs stuffed my OG??
Anyways Im a typical chef that maybe has tried to be to technical to start with and now Im drowing my sorrows with some K&K brew lol so please forgive my rambling questions with lots of spelling mistakes.
Any help please even some links? I have read heaps of info on 3 vessel AG but clearing not enough on BIAB AG.
Kind Regards,
Chef
Post #2 made 14 years ago
This is the first recipe:
All Amarillo IPA finished with galaxy
Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 19.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.954
Total Hops (g): 91.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.058 (°P): 14.3
Final Gravity (FG): 1.015 (°P): 3.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 5.70 %
Colour (SRM): 6.2 (EBC): 12.2
Bitterness (IBU): 59.1 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60
Grain Bill
----------------
4.500 kg Pale Ale Malt (90.84%)
0.227 kg Carahell (4.58%)
0.227 kg Munich I (4.58%)
Hop Bill
----------------
30.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Mash) (1.6 g/L)
30.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.6 g/L)
20.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (1.1 g/L)
11.0 g Galaxy Pellet (13.4% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (0.6 g/L)
Misc Bill
----------------
2.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 60 Minutes (Mash)
2.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 60 Minutes (Mash)
2.0 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) @ 60 Minutes (Mash)
1.0 g Irish Moss @ 5 Minutes (Boil)
Single step Infusion at 66°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 20°C with
Recipe Generated with BrewMate
All Amarillo IPA finished with galaxy
Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 19.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.954
Total Hops (g): 91.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.058 (°P): 14.3
Final Gravity (FG): 1.015 (°P): 3.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 5.70 %
Colour (SRM): 6.2 (EBC): 12.2
Bitterness (IBU): 59.1 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60
Grain Bill
----------------
4.500 kg Pale Ale Malt (90.84%)
0.227 kg Carahell (4.58%)
0.227 kg Munich I (4.58%)
Hop Bill
----------------
30.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Mash) (1.6 g/L)
30.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.6 g/L)
20.0 g Amarillo Pellet (8.6% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (1.1 g/L)
11.0 g Galaxy Pellet (13.4% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (0.6 g/L)
Misc Bill
----------------
2.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 60 Minutes (Mash)
2.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 60 Minutes (Mash)
2.0 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) @ 60 Minutes (Mash)
1.0 g Irish Moss @ 5 Minutes (Boil)
Single step Infusion at 66°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 20°C with
Recipe Generated with BrewMate
Last edited by chefeffect on 21 Jun 2011, 21:57, edited 5 times in total.
Post #3 made 14 years ago
This is the second.
Saaz Pilsner
Bohemian Pilsener
Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 23.0
Total Grain (kg): 5.100
Total Hops (g): 70.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.048 (°P): 11.9
Final Gravity (FG): 1.012 (°P): 3.1
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.72 %
Colour (SRM): 3.3 (EBC): 6.5
Bitterness (IBU): 39.8 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60
Grain Bill
----------------
5.100 kg Pilsner (100%)
Hop Bill
----------------
30.0 g B Saaz Pellet (7.5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.3 g/L)
15.0 g B Saaz Pellet (6.8% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (0.7 g/L)
25.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (1.1 g/L)
Misc Bill
----------------
2.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 60 Minutes (Mash)
2.0 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) @ 60 Minutes (Mash)
Multi Rest:
60 deg at 30 mins
70 deg at 30 mins
Fermented at 20°C with Wyeast 2124 - Bohemian Lager
Recipe Generated with BrewMate
Saaz Pilsner
Bohemian Pilsener
Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 23.0
Total Grain (kg): 5.100
Total Hops (g): 70.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.048 (°P): 11.9
Final Gravity (FG): 1.012 (°P): 3.1
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 4.72 %
Colour (SRM): 3.3 (EBC): 6.5
Bitterness (IBU): 39.8 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60
Grain Bill
----------------
5.100 kg Pilsner (100%)
Hop Bill
----------------
30.0 g B Saaz Pellet (7.5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.3 g/L)
15.0 g B Saaz Pellet (6.8% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (0.7 g/L)
25.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil) (1.1 g/L)
Misc Bill
----------------
2.0 g Calcium Chloride @ 60 Minutes (Mash)
2.0 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) @ 60 Minutes (Mash)
Multi Rest:
60 deg at 30 mins
70 deg at 30 mins
Fermented at 20°C with Wyeast 2124 - Bohemian Lager
Recipe Generated with BrewMate
Last edited by chefeffect on 21 Jun 2011, 21:59, edited 5 times in total.
Post #4 made 14 years ago
Chef, welcome to the forum and good on you for asking questions. There should be more like yours 
.
I sympathise with you. One of my hobbies, or should I say, obsessions, is exploring brewing software and finding their many strengths and weaknesses. There are heaps of them but many brewers hold software up as gods!
I really can't recommend highly enough that a brewer understands 'The Calculator' first before using any other brewing software.
For example, you mention 'batch size' but this is a term that has been completely bastardized by brewing software. By batch size do you mean how much beer you want to drink or how much you want to end up with in the fermenter or how much you want at the end of the boil?
Even though you have given a lot of detail above, it is still hard for me to easily find your problem - it'll take half an hour or more but I will have a crack at it tomorrow.
One thing I will deal with now though is where you say, "I ended up with 20.8lt in my fermentor and 5.5lt of mess in the keggle... Clearly you end up with a lot of trub in BIAB."
The first part of this is correct. It is very easy to end up with a heap of mess in the kettle. The second part is incorrect - it has nothing to do with BIAB.
Brewers are a bit like fishermen so many will make great claims as to their 'efficiency' (which they never define) and their trub losses (which they never measure all the way through.) Trub can neither be created or destroyed - it has to come out somewhere
. It can also be managed to a high degree but this management is the same for BIAB brewers as for traditional brewers.
I'll look at your figures carefully tomorrow but already I can see that not enough grain is being used.
While I'm doing that, forget any other software and learn The Calculator, especially its definitions. It has several faults but it is much harder to 'stuff up' than other brewing software because it is transparent and the terms used in it are, generally, quite well defined. Unless you understand how any software works, it can really do you great harm.
The good news Chef is that your beers should still taste very good. All-grain is very forgiving and sometimes, even major mistakes, lead a brewer into new discoveries or at least into realising that all the measurements don't have to be perfect to get a great beer.
Cheers,
PP
.I sympathise with you. One of my hobbies, or should I say, obsessions, is exploring brewing software and finding their many strengths and weaknesses. There are heaps of them but many brewers hold software up as gods!
I really can't recommend highly enough that a brewer understands 'The Calculator' first before using any other brewing software.
For example, you mention 'batch size' but this is a term that has been completely bastardized by brewing software. By batch size do you mean how much beer you want to drink or how much you want to end up with in the fermenter or how much you want at the end of the boil?
Even though you have given a lot of detail above, it is still hard for me to easily find your problem - it'll take half an hour or more but I will have a crack at it tomorrow.
One thing I will deal with now though is where you say, "I ended up with 20.8lt in my fermentor and 5.5lt of mess in the keggle... Clearly you end up with a lot of trub in BIAB."
The first part of this is correct. It is very easy to end up with a heap of mess in the kettle. The second part is incorrect - it has nothing to do with BIAB.
Brewers are a bit like fishermen so many will make great claims as to their 'efficiency' (which they never define) and their trub losses (which they never measure all the way through.) Trub can neither be created or destroyed - it has to come out somewhere
. It can also be managed to a high degree but this management is the same for BIAB brewers as for traditional brewers.I'll look at your figures carefully tomorrow but already I can see that not enough grain is being used.
While I'm doing that, forget any other software and learn The Calculator, especially its definitions. It has several faults but it is much harder to 'stuff up' than other brewing software because it is transparent and the terms used in it are, generally, quite well defined. Unless you understand how any software works, it can really do you great harm.
The good news Chef is that your beers should still taste very good. All-grain is very forgiving and sometimes, even major mistakes, lead a brewer into new discoveries or at least into realising that all the measurements don't have to be perfect to get a great beer.
Cheers,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 21 Jun 2011, 23:01, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #5 made 14 years ago
chefeffect wrote:Hi all,
I have read a lot of posts and I still cant figure out what I am doing wrong so I will just ask instead of trying to find the answers. Im using brew mate software. The first Biab i did a few days ago was a IPA which was ment to end with a batch size of 19lt I started with 25lt cold water and ended up with 13lt in the fermentor and 3.8lt of muck in the keggle and my OG was spot on at 1058 but my end liquid was not correct if I added the trub I still only had 16.8lt so I assummed it was because I did not use a lid during any of my processes, my effiiciency while including the trub was 62%. I hit my mash temp of 66deg for 60 mins spot on no temp loss, but im using a 3 ring burner that takes a while to heat the water.
Second BIAB today I went for a 23lt (I know I have changed my amounts but some simple calculations can work out the difference between a 19lt brew and 23lt so I assumed) So I started with 32.5lt and put 1lt into the loss to trub and chiller section expecting a better result? Anyways I ended up with 20.8lt in my fermentor and 5.5lt of mess in the keggle and my Og was 1.040 it was ment to be 1.048 I got an efficiency of 64 including the trub (not realy sure how to measure efficiency). Clearly you end up with a lot of trub in BIAB. I did a Beta rest at 61deg for 30 mins when it should have been 60 deg for 30 mins, and an alpha rest at 71deg for 30 mins when it should have been 70 deg for 30 mins, I assume the 71 degs stuffed my OG??
Anyways Im a typical chef that maybe has tried to be to technical to start with and now Im drowing my sorrows with some K&K brew lol so please forgive my rambling questions with lots of spelling mistakes.
Any help please even some links? I have read heaps of info on 3 vessel AG but clearing not enough on BIAB AG.
Kind Regards,
Chef
Hi Chef
Looking at your first brew, you miscalculated the initial water requirements somehow. If you set off with 25 litres and mash 4.95kg of grain you end up with about 21.9 litres start of boil(due to the water absorbed by the grain) you then boil for an hour and lose a further 5 litres.
The second brew is harder to explain you set off with 32 litres and 5.1kg grain should give about 28.8 litres start of boil, if you lost about 5 litres during the boil would give about 24 litres, instead you only lost 2 litres. Did you put the lid on during the boil?
You should not end up with that much trub, I no chill and end up with about one litre, but I don't think it is detrimental to the brew if you throw it all into the fermenter. Your efficienies are similar the variation of one or two degress during the mash is not going to make much difference.
Couple of other comments I think your grain amounts are OK in the recipes even though your efficiency is a little on the low side. You use the same hop for 2 additions in brew 2 but with different %AA's and appear to be brewing a lager with a lager yeast at 20C, would have thought 10-12C better.
cheers
Ian
Last edited by ianh on 22 Jun 2011, 06:18, edited 5 times in total.
Post #6 made 14 years ago
Hi PP,
Thanks for the reply I am glad that the trub is part of the process and I was unaware that that much trub could happen as I had read of about a litre, I am glad that this happens across the board for AG as I was starting to get a bit disheartened. My bag is very fine but I thought maybe thats the first issue so I have ordered another one from another supplier.
The batch size I was after was the drinkable beer this way I can do say 22 - 24lt fill a keg and do say a dozen stub's or a few long necks so I can taste them over the next 6 months to see how they age.
I really appreciate your time to have a look and hopefully I can help someone else in the future.
I have also downloaded the calculator last night and will have a detailed look at it today.
Hi Ian,
Thanks for the reply,I did put the lid on during the boil for the second batch as I assumed that was where I lost a lot of the liguid in the first batch. Your analysis of the first batch makes sence to me when I factor in the grain and water ratio cheers, I will use the calculator to help with this next time.
Jez thanks for pointing out the %AA's I changed the first one to what the packet said and obviously didnt do it to the second. Also I didnt realise you could put the trub in the fermentor, does it settle down? I would guess 5.5lt of trub would go over my tap?
For the lager in the software I was unaware that there even was a ferment temp to add in, I am brewing it at 10-12deg for the lager and 18 deg for the ale, thanks for pointing that out also.
I figured last night while I should have been sleeping that if trub is a natural process then maybe more grain to the liquid ratio will bring up the over all OG and I could just factor in that I will have liquid loss to trub, and maybe I could use that trub and filter it for yeast starters?
Clearly some better figures to start with and getting used to my equipment will help also. I forgot to mention my 3 ring burner takes about an hour to heat the water to mashing temp with the lid on, and then a furthur hour to bring to the boil, maybe I need a new burner but again I assumed that the time to bring to boil and for the mash would not effect it aslong as I know how much water will evaporate?
Anyways thanks heaps guys I look forward to you comments.
Chef.
Thanks for the reply I am glad that the trub is part of the process and I was unaware that that much trub could happen as I had read of about a litre, I am glad that this happens across the board for AG as I was starting to get a bit disheartened. My bag is very fine but I thought maybe thats the first issue so I have ordered another one from another supplier.
The batch size I was after was the drinkable beer this way I can do say 22 - 24lt fill a keg and do say a dozen stub's or a few long necks so I can taste them over the next 6 months to see how they age.
I really appreciate your time to have a look and hopefully I can help someone else in the future.
I have also downloaded the calculator last night and will have a detailed look at it today.
Hi Ian,
Thanks for the reply,I did put the lid on during the boil for the second batch as I assumed that was where I lost a lot of the liguid in the first batch. Your analysis of the first batch makes sence to me when I factor in the grain and water ratio cheers, I will use the calculator to help with this next time.
Jez thanks for pointing out the %AA's I changed the first one to what the packet said and obviously didnt do it to the second. Also I didnt realise you could put the trub in the fermentor, does it settle down? I would guess 5.5lt of trub would go over my tap?
For the lager in the software I was unaware that there even was a ferment temp to add in, I am brewing it at 10-12deg for the lager and 18 deg for the ale, thanks for pointing that out also.
I figured last night while I should have been sleeping that if trub is a natural process then maybe more grain to the liquid ratio will bring up the over all OG and I could just factor in that I will have liquid loss to trub, and maybe I could use that trub and filter it for yeast starters?
Clearly some better figures to start with and getting used to my equipment will help also. I forgot to mention my 3 ring burner takes about an hour to heat the water to mashing temp with the lid on, and then a furthur hour to bring to the boil, maybe I need a new burner but again I assumed that the time to bring to boil and for the mash would not effect it aslong as I know how much water will evaporate?
Anyways thanks heaps guys I look forward to you comments.
Chef.
Post #7 made 14 years ago
Hi Chef
Have a play with the calculator it will give you a better idea of what is required. What you need to do is make a note of all your measurements and readings then you can use this info for future brews. I don't know how you measure your volumes in the keggle as I assume it's not straight sided. I brew in an urn and just measure the depth with a ruler and calculate the volumes.
The burner should be fine given the amount of water you boiled off in the first brew. The lid needs to be off during the boil to allow nasties to escape.
A number of people brew slightly more than they require then filter the excess for starters, if you throw it in the fermenter it just settles to the bottom.
cheers
Ian
Have a play with the calculator it will give you a better idea of what is required. What you need to do is make a note of all your measurements and readings then you can use this info for future brews. I don't know how you measure your volumes in the keggle as I assume it's not straight sided. I brew in an urn and just measure the depth with a ruler and calculate the volumes.
The burner should be fine given the amount of water you boiled off in the first brew. The lid needs to be off during the boil to allow nasties to escape.
A number of people brew slightly more than they require then filter the excess for starters, if you throw it in the fermenter it just settles to the bottom.
cheers
Ian
Post #8 made 14 years ago
Its important to have the lid either off, or partially off without the possibility of condensate dripping back in. Part of the boil is to drive off volatiles which cause nasty flavours in the beerchefeffect wrote:Hi PP,
Thanks for the reply,I did put the lid on during the boil for the second batch as I assumed that was where I lost a lot of the liguid in the first batch. Your analysis of the first batch makes sence to me when I factor in the grain and water ratio cheers, I will use the calculator to help with this next time.
As I no-chill I end up with cold break in my fermenter instead of the kettle, and this means often the fermenters tap is obscured. It doesn't seem to be a problem as I just flush the tap just before kegging by taking a gravity sample.Jez thanks for pointing out the %AA's I changed the first one to what the packet said and obviously didnt do it to the second. Also I didnt realise you could put the trub in the fermentor, does it settle down? I would guess 5.5lt of trub would go over my tap?
Also, you may consider tilting your fermenter at a slight angle to angle away the trub from the tap
Certainly you can add more grain to bump up your OG. There is a limit though where you efficiency begins to plummet, i suspect it is somewhere in the 3-3.5 L/KG range.I figured last night while I should have been sleeping that if trub is a natural process then maybe more grain to the liquid ratio will bring up the over all OG and I could just factor in that I will have liquid loss to trub, and maybe I could use that trub and filter it for yeast starters?
I filter my trub and get about 50% liquid out of it. I just use a sieve/paper towels or coffee filters, but the coffee filters get clogged too quickly.
Don't forget to add some kettle fining such as half a tablet of whirlfloc and then do a whirlpool to help drop out the kettle proteins and centre them in the middle of your kettle.
You may want to consider upgrading the regulator. If you get a medium or high pressure variable regulator you can probably get a lot more power out of the burner.Clearly some better figures to start with and getting used to my equipment will help also. I forgot to mention my 3 ring burner takes about an hour to heat the water to mashing temp with the lid on, and then a furthur hour to bring to the boil,
My Italian Spiral burner can bring 40L to the boil from mashout in less than 10 minutes.
That is perhaps unneccesary, but I'm a sucker for sexy italians
That's right, as long as you can maintain a good rolling boil. Again a variable regulator, like thismaybe I need a new burner but again I assumed that the time to bring to boil and for the mash would not effect it aslong as I know how much water will evaporate?
Might be just the trick, and if you do upgrade your burner one day, then you can use the regulator with that. Mind you a 3 ring burner should be okay for even double batches with the right regulator
Last edited by stux on 22 Jun 2011, 12:42, edited 5 times in total.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Post #9 made 14 years ago
Cheers Stux I had looked a regulator like that but was unsure if i could or would need to use it, but I will go get one tomorrow. If i can save an hour on brew day that would be great.
I wish I had found the Calculator before my first brews, its fantastic and fills in a lot of the blanks, thanks heaps to the people who put it together, Im going to do the 2 brews I have allready done and use this to calibrate my volumes.
I wish I had found the Calculator before my first brews, its fantastic and fills in a lot of the blanks, thanks heaps to the people who put it together, Im going to do the 2 brews I have allready done and use this to calibrate my volumes.
Post #10 made 14 years ago
Great to see you are making headway Chef
Seeing as you are getting the hang of The Calculator, maybe have a crack at filling it in for your next brew and then post what you come up with to this thread. Have a good look at Post #2 there before you post.
If you reckon you are okay to do the above, then I will check it over in that thread. If not, keep asking your questions here and we'll knock them over.
Good on you,
PP
Seeing as you are getting the hang of The Calculator, maybe have a crack at filling it in for your next brew and then post what you come up with to this thread. Have a good look at Post #2 there before you post.
If you reckon you are okay to do the above, then I will check it over in that thread. If not, keep asking your questions here and we'll knock them over.
Good on you,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 22 Jun 2011, 19:04, edited 5 times in total.
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