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Post #1 made 12 years ago
by tota76
Hi folks!
I'm studying BIABacus for may first batch,
I knew BIABacus just yesterday and after all seems pretty easy,
but I've some doubt about few section...
Section G. Chilling - I'll use a INOX "serpentine" to chilling (it's right what I wrote on my recipe?)
section H Fermentation - what's secondary use/crash Chilled/Filtered ? Assuming attenuation of% ? ( I tried to put something for the yeast section that's right?)

the other big doubt is the efficiency, I put 70%.....

I attached the BIABacus file, check it out if I used correctly.


[center]BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3K RECIPE REPORT[/center]
[center]BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.[/center]
[center](Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)[/center]
[center]Mahatma - Batch 1[/center]

Recipe Overview

Brewer: Antonio Maria Ledda
Style: Indian Pale Ale
Source Recipe Link:
ABV: 5,3% (assumes any priming sugar used is diluted.)

Original Gravity (OG): 1,055
IBU's (Tinseth): 41
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 0,75
Colour: 16,6 EBC = 8,4 SRM

Kettle Efficiency (as in EIB and EAW): 70 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 63,1 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 70 mins at 66,4 C = 151,5 F
Boil: 60 min
Ferment: 7 days at 18 C = 64,4 F

Volumes & Gravities
(Note that VAW below is the Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) less shrinkage.)
The, "Clear Brewing Terminology," thread at http://www.biabrewer.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total Water Needed (TWN): 58,49 L = 15,45 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 53,14 L = 14,04 G @ 1,048
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 44,4 L = 11,73 G @ 1,055
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 40 L = 10,57 G @ 1,055
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 37,04 L = 9,78 G @ 1,014 assuming apparent attenuation of 75 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

95% Pale Malt Maris Otter (5,5 EBC = 2,8 SRM) 11189 grams = 24,67 pounds
5% Crystal 60L (118,2 EBC = 60 SRM) 589 grams = 1,3 pounds

The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

22,1 IBU EK Goldins Flowers (5,3%AA) 84 grams = 2,963 ounces at 60 mins
9,7 IBU EK Goldins Flowers (5,3%AA) 48 grams = 1,693 ounces at 30 mins
5,7 IBU EK Goldins Flowers (5,3%AA) 36 grams = 1,27 ounces at 20 mins
3,4 IBU EK Goldins Flowers (5,3%AA) 36 grams = 1,27 ounces at 10 mins

Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full-Volume Mash) for 70 mins at 66,4 C = 151,52 F

Mashout for for 20 mins at 78 C = 172,4 F


Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Hopsock Used: Y

Chilling Method: INOX Srpentine (Employed 30 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation & Conditioning

Fermentation: Fermentis S-04 for 7 days at 18 C = 64,4 F
Diacetyl Rest: 7 days at 18 C = 64,4 F

Req. Volumes of CO2: 2,2
Serving Temp: 12 C = 53,6 F
Condition for 21 days.
Consume within 2 months.

Thanks!
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Last edited by tota76 on 25 Apr 2014, 08:32, edited 1 time in total.

Post #2 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi tota,

Hopefully Nuff won't catch us out as we're only meant to post BIABacus files in a few threads until the main release comes out. Let's hope he's drunk :lol:.

The first thing to note is that the BIABcus requires very little decision-making. Basically, if copying a recipe from an exisitn g BIABacus file, all you need to do is change the kettle dimensionsin Section B, it is that easy. The problem here at BIABrewer is we don't have too many recipes in easy to find places as yet.

When copying a recipe from an external source, the most critival figure needed is the 'VAW - Volume of Ambient Wort' of the recipe they are copying. This is extremely difficult to find in most published recipes. In fact, most recipes have many other problems as well. Read this thread.

In nearly all BeerSmith reports, it is impossible to tell if the 'batch' size refers to 'VIF - Volume into Fermentor' or VAW. The difference between the two is 'KFL - Kettle to Fermentor Loss' and this can be considerable. We'll come back to this a bit later. First...

All-grain brews need a 90 minute boil for maximum quality. Read here. So change the 60 in Section B to 90 mins.

Also in Section B, I think you are typing in the VIF of the orignal brewer. Are you really planning on brewing 40 L into your fermentor or do you really want something more like 20 or so litres? Change that 40 to what you want.

In Section C, you have 1.044 on the left and 1.055 on the right. If you are copying a recipe, you should only be using that left hand field and in there you type the OG of the original recipe. My guess is that 1.055 should be on the left. So delete the 1.044 and move the 1.055 to replace it.

In Section D, you really only should be filling out one of the two first fields. No use outting the IBU's in from the orignal recipe as the formulas that BeerSmith uses is incorrect and on top of this we don't know what formula was used - see here. This means we have to use the VAW field. Ifyou gave me theorignal .bsm file or a link to it, I could use some advanced tools in the BIABacus to work out what the proper VAW is. I think in this situation though, it is not a big worry for you to stick with the 40 litres.

BIAB needs a 90 minute mash and if you do a msh-out, it only needs to reach 78 C,you don't have to hold it their for any length of time.

To reduce your KFL (see Clear Brewering Terminology thread), you can put your hops in your BIAB bag during the boil. This means using it as a hop-sock. You can also whirlpool to reduce KFL but the first method is more reliable. If you put a Y beside these, it will reduce the KFL estimate in the BIABacus.

I'm not sure what an Inox Serpentine is so we'll need a link to that. It's possible that you are interpreting a chiller as a fridge but a chiller is usually wirhter a 'plate chiller', 'immersion chiller' or 'counter-flow chiller'. Google these to nmake sure we are on the same page.

In Section H, similiar to Section G, you can reduce your FPL by typing a Y beside 'Secondary Used', 'Crash-Chilled' or Filterd'. Do a little Googling or esercahing her for these terms. Get back to us if you can't find an answer.

In Section X, you don't type anything. The BIABacus autmatically estimates your kettle efficieciny. The orignal brewer's effiociecny is totally irrelevant to you. No other software does these auto-estimates so one of the most confusing things in the BIABacus is that you have to do so little!

Hope the above clears up a few things for you tota ;),
PP

Note: I have added the above corrections in the file below. Make sure you cange that Desired VIF in Section B :peace:
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 25 Apr 2014, 19:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Have made a few changes to the above post and added a file for you that I forgot to do.

Just saw another thread tota where you mentioned that you have calculated your efficiency to be 70%.

Firstly, there are two types of efficiency. Read that terminology thread above and/or listen to the podcast that BobBrews and I did a few days ago here. In the podcast you will here us explaining...

1. There are two types of efficiency - kettle and fermentor. Kettle efficiency is the useful one but unfortunately all other software has very poor terminology in this area and often asks you the user to guess your fermentor efficiency and then all your brews rely on that one figure.

2. Kettle efficiency (and therefore fermentor efficiency) is not a fixed value however. It should be lower when you do a high gravity brew and higher if you do a low gravity brew. The BIABacus works all this out for you. In other words, it works in a fare easier and far more accurate way.

So, understand what efficiency you are talking about and never expect it to be the same from brew to brew. When people say, "They always get x efficiency," they are usually, often quite unconsciously, doing little corrections to make sure that their brew ends up agreeing with the software they used.

I better race,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 25 Apr 2014, 19:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #4 made 12 years ago
by tota76
Hi PP, thank for the advices!

Where we have to post the recipes files?

So the original recipe, was made for me, after read Designing Great Beers! ;)

This is the idea....
I want to do a IPA so I chosen Pale Malt Otter (5,5ECB) and a Crystal 60L (118ECB)
I want to brew like 40 liter of beer so I put 95% Pale and 5% Crystal.....I Wont a IPA style beer close to blond beer than amber
and I decided to reach 1,055 to have a vol.+/- 5.5% using BeerSmith
so the software give me the grain quantity.

For the hops I choose a English hop and single hop because this is my first brew and I wont to brew simple
I choose the East Kent Goldings AA5,3%
To stay in the IPA range bitterness I decide to a 40IBU bitterness to brew a beer pretty balanced
using BeerSmith : 80g 60min,30g 30min,30g 20min,30g 10min.... Reached 40IBU but no in BIABacus that is 38,9IBU :/

The Yeast S04 English Yeast for a Englih beer

Do you think it's a correct process to do a recipe?

This is the "serpentina in acciaio inox" ..... http://www.polsinelli.it/shop/productde ... 0/124.html

Ok now i understood what is hop-sock.. I never have hear before... It's better use a HS method?
I was thinking to correct the water pre boil after I calculate the OG total to do a 1,055 OG after boil
and re-calculate the hop quantity for the new VIF (Designing Great Beer)
that's a good method?

Section H_ Secondary use Y First fermentation 40liters in a two "Damigiana glass 28 L" and second in two to 25L. http://www.cadamuro.it/damigiane_in_plastica_lt34.html

I'attached the correct recipe, check it out!
The 1 of May I'll brew it! :D

Now I'll watch BobBrews that you suggest to try to understand well the efficiency

Thanks a lot PP!
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Post #5 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
A few things tota,

Above you mentioned that this is your first brew. This site is aiming to provide a clear path for brewers in your position but atm, there isn't one there. Don't worry, you won't find anything anywhere else either - lol.

In the new site structure, here is some of the advice you will be given...

1. For your first five or so brews, use a high integrity recipe. (In other words, no designing recipes when you are starting out.)

...

And, at this stage of your career, we really can't go past that point. As I look at your recipe, the less integrity I see in it. Hop additions are at 60, 30, 20 and 10 minutes. We need to know why they are.

Also why is your immersion chiller being employed 30 minutes after boil end?

Your .odt file does not download (it needs to be in .bsm or .bsmx format.)

You see? So many questions already.

...

Your ideas are definitely good but there are many gaps as well, perfectly understandable when you are starting out. Here's some more thoughts...

1. The discrepancy between the BIABacus and BeerSmith IBU's should be larger than what you state. BeerSmith is usually a lot higher as, depending on the version, it either incorrectly uses pre-boil gravity in its formula and/or VIF.

2. Above, I think you are saying that you will wait until you see what your pre-boil gravity is and then make adjustments. No, you shouldn't do this, ever!!!! (Listen to the podcast.) I know some experts tell you to check pre-boil gravity but it is idiotic advice from so many grounds.

Before your first BIAB

Ask for/use a high integrity recipe.
Make a brew plan.
Take key measurements on the brew day if time allows.
Make an informed decision on whether to do a post-boil correction.

That's all the time I have for now tota.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 27 Apr 2014, 21:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #6 made 12 years ago
by tota76
Hi PP,
so I do a recipe becouse all recipe that I see are whit a lot of kind of malts and hops, and I'd thinked to do a simple recipe, to taste one malt and one hop...
now I've alredy bought the ingredients, so I've 25Kg of Pale Ottis 5Kg Crystal 60L and 250g EKGoldings Yeast S04 and Notthingam (2 fermenter)
60 for bitter 30 20 and 10 for aroma, no? is not correct? I know is the weakness of my process, i'll study a little more about the hope before brew;)
can I do a higt integrity rcipe whit this ingredients?

The chiller immersion really I don't know how tu fill up this section of BIABacus, but my plan is... put the chiller 10 minute before stop boiling and take away when the temperature is about 25°C

so I haven't watch the podcast.. I'll watch asap to undestand some tips! ;)

Brew plan is in the way
Measurement? do you have a list of all measurement to take? there are all in the BIABacus no?
what is a informed decision on whether to do a post-boil correction?

thank a lot again and sorry for some meaby stupid questions! :headhit:

Post #8 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
I'm heading to work now but attaching a pdf is fine. We'll be able to use the ingredients you have. Just need to improve the timing etc. I'll have a look at your .pdf later and we'll see what we can come up with. Doing a single hop will be great ;).
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Post #9 made 12 years ago
by tota76
This is the PDF file,
I think I'll chage the hop quantity, after reading some advice in Brewing Classic Styles...
90g EKGoldings AA5,3% a 60min (Bitter)
30g EKGoldings AA5,3% a 30min (Flavour)
30g EKGoldings AA5,3% a 15min (Aroma)
30g EKGoldings AA5,3% a 5min (Aroma)

that's right!?
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Post #10 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Good-oh ;),

Still a few questions for you...

I am unsure if this is a recipe you are making up yourself or whether you are copying it from another person. This is an important question. For example, if it is from someone else, do you know them? And, have you tasted their beer?

If you want to brew an English (or even American) IPA, the hop timings are all wrong. Flavour hops should be getting added at around 15 minutes before end of boil and aroma hops at the end of the boil. Your chiller should be turned on at the end of the boil or very soon after, not twenty minutes after. These are the things worrying me.

The good news is you have Brewing Classic Styles so you can look up the style and scratch your head and ask, "Why is this recipe so different from the one in BCS?" That is the best starting point and is what I do all the time.

The other good thing is that you found your way here and so, within a few more posts, I think we will end up seeing you do your first brew with a robust recipe using the ingredients you have already bought.

:peace:
PP

P.S. Forgot to mention, that it is always a great idea to read the BJCP style guidelines on a beer you want to brew. See here.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 28 Apr 2014, 19:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #11 made 12 years ago
by tota76
Hi!
Yes I'm making up all alone this recipe, only thinking about do a very simple brew in IPA style, so 2 strain of grain and 1 hop,to try the taste of this ingredients and I've choose 2 type of yeast to try the difference between them...

so do you suggest that I've to put the hop at 15min (maybe40g) to flavor and at 5min (maybe40g) to aroma, calculate the IBU and put xgram at 60min ti reach the bitterness (40IBU)
that's right?

yes the chiller I'm thinking to put inside 5min before the flame-out to sanitize it and turn on a the end of the boil.

I'll check out the recipe in BCS to see the difference!

thanks PP this conversation is being really helpfull to me!! :thumbs:

The brew day is coming!! :party:

Post #12 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Good stuff tota,

Really pleased that this is helping.

When starting out, it's always great to use a tried and trusted recipe. I think I wrote on this above but it really does make things very easy. Monkeyman took that approach and it really does speed things up in the end as you can see here.

There are actually heaps more reasons to start with tried and trusted recipes. One of the main ones is that when you use a tried and trusted recipe, you are forced to concentrate more on weighing things out and then adding them at the right times than on focussing on IBU and colour estimates. When you focus on IBU and colour estimates, some disastrous things can occur as they dangerous and very primitive formulas. They need to be used with extreme care and definitely not worshipped.

For example, above you mention, "So do you suggest that I've to put the hop at 15min (maybe40g) to flavor and at 5min (maybe 40g) to aroma, calculate the IBU and put xgram at 60min ti reach the bitterness (40IBU). that's right?" (I know English is not your native language so forgive me if I am not interpreting things well).

This is where things can go wrong because formulas are dodgy. You can throw in a billion grams of a hop at the end of the boil and every hop estimated formulas will say it adds no bitterness whereas, it will and it can add a lot.

Here's what I reckon would be best now. Remember above, I said
The good news is you have Brewing Classic Styles so you can look up the style and scratch your head and ask, "Why is this recipe so different from the one in BCS?" That is the best starting point and is what I do all the time.
Well, I think you need to do that and write back as to why your recipe differs so much from the recipe in Brewing Classic Styles.

In other words, I think we are now at the stage where you will be able to make your own corrections to your recipe. So, grab a beer, grab the book, grab your BIAbacus file and have a bash at getting your file more inline with the book.

Once you've done that. post your new file up here and we'll have a look.

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 29 Apr 2014, 17:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #13 made 12 years ago
by tota76
Hey PP!
Yeah english is not my native language neither the second language and it took some time for me to write here, but I'm seeing that you are understanding a lot so is no so bad, altough I have some problems when I've to explain some complex concept :dunno:
anyway, I studied a little BCS, I saw that for the English IPA the book recipe use the hop in the same proportion at 60/10/0 min to you think it's important the proportion of hop? becouse I try to do the recipe with the same quantity but to reach the IBU to IPa style I dont have enough hop :?
do you think is more important reach the IBU or mantein the proportion 1/1/1 ?
talking with a friend, he suggest me that is better add more crystal an use a little amount of flakes to improve the beer foam...
He also said me that he have some carapils malt to land if I need for ma recipe. :think:

So, below you can download the latest recipe...

I hope that the recipe is getting better! :think:
What do you think about?
I am waiting for your constructive criticism!! ;)
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Post #14 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Howdy tota,

I'm short on time tonight but will have some more time in about 12 hours. Here's some thoughts...

Great, we have the timing working now. Good stuff!

Next thing. Let's just use the BIABacus. Forget the Beersmith file as all it will do is confuse you. For example, even if you change the VAW on the first line of Section D to 41.6 less 4% shrinkage =
39.94 L, the BeerSmith IBU's will still read higher than BIABacus IBU's because the BeerSmith formula is incorrect.
When you design a recipe in the BIABacus, it is really easy. What you do is write nothing on the first line of Section D. Instead on the second line, you type in the amount of IBU's you want. I suggest 45.

Next you work out the ratio you wish of bittering, flavour and aroma hops. The BCS recipe Biere de L'inde is not actually a 1/1/1 ratio. It is close to that by weight of the hops but not by the amount of oil and that is what is important..

So, in the book we have bittering = 1.43 weight units x 8%AA = 11.44
For flavour we have 1.5 x 5 = 7.5
Aroma we have 1.5 8 5% = 7.5

So the ratio is more 1.5/1/1.

To match this, I am going to simply type in 1.5 and 1 and 1 under grams on the left hand side of the BIABacus.

I'm going to attach the file here.

The only problem I see now is that you are using a low AA% hop for bittering which means it is expensive. Can you get a higher AA% one so as you don't need as much?

Feel free to lower the IBU's if you want.

What do you think now?

;)
PP

P.S. Your English is going really well :thumbs:.
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Post #15 made 12 years ago
by tota76
Hey PP!
I left Beersmith, and now I focused on BIABacus.

The firs thing. You are sure that I've to put the amount of grams to the right side for the grain bill?
Because it's less than the original recipe, why?
For the IBU I choose 40, it's all I have :D

Section E, I put the mash out for 5 min that's right?

Section H I think it's OK

Section X I put the efficiency 75% because it's my first brew and I don't know the real efficiency

Section K It's right? What is the formula of evaporation (7 l/h *90min)? But my boil time it's not 90min mash + 60min boil hops?

I think I full fill the BIABacus for the moment, no?

I postpone my brew day at Saturday 3/5/2014
so I've a couple of day more to improve the recipe! ;)

Antonio

P.S I improving my English whit my brew knowledge!! :peace:

Post #17 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Totes!

What happens with hops is that they contribute more bitterness the longer they are boiled. Compared to the first recipe you started with, we are using more hops earlier.

(I'm not sure if this answers your question but the other thing is you can't comparer the original recipe with this recipe. For a start, the IBU formula in the first recipe is wrong and the original recipe is no longer like the latest recipe which is correctly designed.)

That last file I sent you was good to go btw. You didn't need to change anything (except maybe finding some higher AA hops for the 60 minute addition to save some money).

Don't touch the efficiency!!!!!! We've spent thousands of hours making the BIAbacus easy. You have been using BeerSmith too long!!!!

Kettle efficiency varies depending on the gravity of the brew. The BIABacus calculates this for you. Other programs lead you to believe that you should get the same efficiency on all your brews. This is not correct at all.

So deletethe 75% from Section X.

Two Last Questions

In Section X you also have a Volume Shape Adjustment of 1 litre. Just want to make sure you have consciously put that in there.

Also, why is the KFL fixed at 0 litres? You will have a kettle to fermentor loss. Get rid of that and let the BIABacus calculate it for you automatically.

In fact, I'll make the above corrections and re-post the file and the file I post will be right to brew from so if you change anything, let me know why.

:peace:
PP

P.S. Mash-out only really needs to be a minute in BIAB but you can leave for longer if you want.

Also leave the file name in the format I have used below otherwise versions get mixed up etc.
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 01 May 2014, 05:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #18 made 12 years ago
by tota76
Before I was talking about the section C to amount of grin no hops...

yeah, the section X I put 1 litre becouse the kettle is not completly plain
and why I've to have the KFL?
I can't completley empty the kettle into the fermenter?

OK I'll save your recipe.. I can change the shape volume adj?

I'll try to find some hop whit higher AA,.

So thanks a lot to the suggestions and the improuvment you made me do! :clap:
I'll tell you how the brew was! :D

Ciao!
Antonio

Post #19 made 12 years ago
by PistolPatch
Sorry Antonio,

The grain is less than the original recipe for one or both of the following reasons. Either the VAW of the two recipes are not the same and/or the kettle efficiencies are not the same. In BeerSmith, you really can't determine VAW or kettle efficiency from most of their recipe reports as not enough information is provided.

The practice of pouring everything from your kettle to fermentor is not regarded as best practice. The 'trub' (hop debris etc) has to come out at some point and the kettle to fermentor transfer is the best place we currently know of of getting rid of that. So, don't set your KFL to zero. Leave it blank and work off the BIABacus auto-estimates.

When you blank out the KFL, the grain bill will increase because you need to make more wort to cover that loss. If you don't have enough grain to do that, just lower your desired Volume into Fermentor in Section B.

And yes, add that Volume Shape Adjustment back in. Just wanted to make sure it was in there for the right reasons.

:P
PP
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Post #20 made 12 years ago
by tota76
Hey PP,
tomorrow it's the brewday!
I do the cheklist, but I not sure about the boling time..
it's 90minute so I've to wait 30 minute before put the hops inside?
look my file....
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Post #21 made 12 years ago
by BobBrews
tota76,

Yes, boil for 30 minutes and then throw in your hops. The times are approximate. So if you are a little early or a little late? No problems! Your beer will be just fine and dandy!
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV
Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

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