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Need some help with my wheat Beers

Post #1 made 8 years ago
by bundy
Hi Guys,

I need some help from the wise heads here. Being Summer I like to have a Hefe in the fridge for sipping, however I have made this same Recipe 3 times now and each time have struggled with hitting my expected numbers with GIB 7 - 8 points low on each occasion. (Expected GIB 1.041 achieving around 1.034)

The Original Recipe is from Brewing Classic Styles so has integrity and should be relatively easy to follow as there's not much to a Hefe.

this is the Recipe from BCS -

Harold-is-Weizen
(5 gallons/19 L, all-grain)
OG = 1.049 (12 °P)
FG = 1.012 (3 °P)
IBU = 13 SRM = 3 ABV = 4.8%

Ingredients
4.85 lb. (2.2 kg) Great Western wheat malt (2 °L) (or similar)
4.85 lb. (2.2 kg) Durst Pilsner malt (2 °L) (or similar)
2.68 AAU Hallertau pellet hops, (0.67 oz./19 g of 4% alpha acids) (60 min.)
Wyeast 3068 (Weihenstephan Weizen) or White Labs WLP300 (Hefeweizen Ale) yeast

On each of the Hefe brews my GIB and subsequently OG have been way off that as predicted. I dont know if I should expect a lower efficiency for Wheat and have to make some type of adjustments to Section Y? Or something else is the culprit.

Every other recipe I have transcribed from BCS has been pretty much Spot on but for whatever reason this Hefe has my stumped. I cant work out what I am doing wrong and why I am regularly so far off. Once possibly my mistake but 3 times now it must be something common.

BIABacus attached

Cheers
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Post #2 made 8 years ago
by joshua
I figured you should have got 1.036 GIB.

You post states you used 9.7 pounds of Grain, and the BIABACUS stated you needed to use 10.89 pounds to achieve 1.041
So the Reduced grain bill, will lower the GIB.

The post did not mention the VIB. BIABACUS stataed 8.14 gallons.

If you had a different volume than that into the KBoil, the 1.036 GIB would be still lower.

IMHO.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #3 made 8 years ago
by bundy
Hi Joshua, Thanks for the reply.

I'm not sure (and need some help to get to the bottom of this) but You may of just inadvertently found my problem.

I was being lazy and took the Recipe above as posted in BYO Magazine in an article written by Jamil Zainasheff as this is the same Recipe as written in BCS. (But maybe one has an error or maybe one is just scaled smaller - I am not sure) but not to worry I dont think it matters.

The Recipe as posted in my BIABacus file is from the BCS book and they seem to be different as to the Grain bill. I always thought Jamil was consistent in how he posted his recipes so either these are different or he is talking different volumes between the BYO version and the BCS version.

From BYO Article - http://byo.com/malt/item/2265-german-he ... le-profile
Harold-is-Weizen
(5 gallons/19 L, all-grain)
OG = 1.049 (12 °P)
FG = 1.012 (3 °P)
IBU = 13 SRM = 3 ABV = 4.8%

Ingredients
4.85 lb. (2.2 kg) Great Western wheat malt (2 °L) (or similar)
4.85 lb. (2.2 kg) Durst Pilsner malt (2 °L) (or similar)
2.68 AAU Hallertau pellet hops, (0.67 oz./19 g of 4% alpha acids) (60 min.)
Wyeast 3068 (Weihenstephan Weizen) or White Labs WLP300 (Hefeweizen Ale) yeast


from BCS Book
Harold-is-Weizen
(5 gallons/19 L, VIF)
OG = 1.050 (12 °P)
FG = 1.012 (3 °P)
IBU = 13 SRM = 3 ABV = 4.8%

Ingredients
5.6 lb. (2.54 kg) Wheat malt
5.6 lb. (2.54 kg) Pilsner malt
Hallertau pellet hops, (0.8 oz./23 g of 4% alpha acids) (60 min.)
Wyeast 3068 (Weihenstephan Weizen) or White Labs WLP300 (Hefeweizen Ale) yeast


So with that I thought I would just play with the grain bill in BIABacus and see what happens. To my surprise no matter how big or how small I make the original grain bill BIABacus tells me to use the same amount of grain. If I make it 1000 grams of each or 5000 grams it doesnt alter my grain bill. So BIABacus must work on ratio of grain (in this recipe a 50-50 ratio)

So BIABacus is only taking into account the Ratios and is using it's own conversion efficiency I presume.

Which then has me thinking, for ease I thought I would add in the exact same grain bill to make 19L or 5 gallons as per BCS.

BCS says for all its recipes they have 22.7L at flame out, with an evap rate of 15% so that works out at about 3.9 Litres per hour for this size brew. They also state they boil for 60 minutes. So if boiling for 90 minutes they would evaporate about 5.85 litres. and start with about 28.5 L VIB. So for this exercise I have set my Evap rate in BIABacus to there's at 3.9L (Mine is actually 3.6)

Now once I convert this into BIABacus as per attached it says I should have 31.3 Litres into the Boil as compared with 28.5L as they state in the book.

So am I missing something here?

Setting the exact same Grain bill, the exact same Evap rate and the exact same VIF the BCS recipe says I need 28.5L of water whilst BIABacus says I need 31.2

Obviously that's where my lost points have gone, but my question is what have I done wrong (or what has gone wrong) in the conversion into BIABacus?

:scratch:
Last edited by bundy on 22 Nov 2015, 07:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #4 made 8 years ago
by joshua
Yes, there is a difference from the book and BIAB. Reality.

The Book is a One Batch Project, not a Micro brewer program.
Many recipes are called "Low Integrity"
The Book is good to the get the Ratios of grains and Hops and the Water style, and mash temperatures, for the Style.
Your equipment will give you very Different results.
That is why two sources for the Same exact recipe will be Different.

The Same variety of Grains have different Yield, One brewer bases the on the Grains from a 1 year, one 50 pound bag Purchase.
The same Hop from different Growers are very Different, year to year.

Use BIABacus, and measure the Values it needs, as you brew, and you will hit the Exact Numbers. It uses Very Average Numbers.

Have Fun figuring out the Reality of Brewing.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America

Post #5 made 8 years ago
by mally
Bundy - I don't know if the following thread will help?

Look below #299 from PP about dealing with BCS.
Last edited by mally on 23 Nov 2015, 16:47, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #6 made 8 years ago
by bundy
Thanks Mally, Yes I've seen that thanks. I also re-read a few posts from PP on efficiency etc Here and the things that can affect that to see if I am missing something. The basics such as Mash time, Temperature, Grain weight, Crush of grain and measurements I am pretty comfortable I am all over those.

One thing I have never paid any attention to is Water chemistry and mash pH. So I've done a bit of reading last day or 2 and maybe that's something that is causing my problem. I found a few Water Calculators and input the water profile for my area. (I ended up settling on Ez Water as the calculator) Anyway using NRB's Recipe as the grain bill my Mash pH calculates at around 5.7 which is a little high from the recommended range of 5.4 - 5.6 but not massively out and all these things without measuring are a bit of a guesstimate. But that said when I brew that beer I am pretty close to all the BIABacus expected values.

Then I put the grain bill in for my Wheat beer. Using Wheat results in a much higher mash pH. In my case pH is calculated at approx 6.1 :o

Now I have no idea on how much a higher mash pH would affect GIB efficiency but at the moment it's all I can see as possibly causing a problem. So I've ordered some Test strips, some Lactic Acid and a few salts and I am going to brew the exact same Wheat beer again in a weeks time, but this time aiming for a Mash pH of 5.5

If that doesn't work I am going to have to give up on Brewing Wheat beers. Its becoming too expensive to keep throwing them down the drain!
Last edited by bundy on 24 Nov 2015, 10:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Need some help with my wheat Beers

Post #7 made 8 years ago
by Contrarian
Mash pH can have a decent impact on efficiency and as you have said above it is more of a problem in pale and wheat beers than darker beers.

I haven't gone too far down the water chemistry rabbit hole but always add some calcium sulphate and/or calcium chloride to the mash. I aim for about 100ppm an for my local water that's about 17grams for 50L of water. Obviously that will be different depending on local water profiles.

I spent a while looking at pH strips that are hard to read and no just add a couple of handfuls of acidulated malt to my lighter beers and have seen an increase in efficiency. It is a tricky thing to measure as strips are hit and miss and a pH meter needs to be calibrated each use.

Don't give up on wheat beers, they are awesome summer quaffers and a great quick turn around keg filler. Have a bit if a play with pH and I'm sure you will see improvements.

Post #8 made 8 years ago
by mally
No worries Bundy - I wasn't sure if you were aware about altering your settings to suit.

Not that it will probably help you, but in the UK we tend to use an alkalinity test kit.
It is possible for your water to change regularly (well where I am anyway as we have at least 3 reservoir sources)!
salifert.jpg

This will tell you your alkalinity within minutes, and I often do this whilst filling my kettle.

I can then use another popular product here called CRS (carbonate reducing system) which is just a blend of acids.
The beauty of these products is that it will tell you how much CRS to add to reach a target alkalinity based on your reading.
It is very quick, fairly simple and inexpensive, & effective.
Some people also re-test after treatment to check it has worked.

If interested have a look at this website here
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Last edited by mally on 24 Nov 2015, 16:12, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #9 made 8 years ago
by bundy
Thanks for the link mate. Not sure if an alkalinity test is the same though. I thought it different to pH, related but not the same. From what I gather pH value is the big one for conversion efficiency. Whilst salts and minerals (which I think are part of the alkalinity equation) more affects taste, but does have an influence on pH (all so confusing for my little brain)

And I envy you having 3 reservoirs. At least your water has all come from the sky.

Here in sunny Oz where I live the water may come from Dams one day, (good old fashioned rain) ground water the next and more recently desal plants. They mix it all up like a big cocktail and whatever you happen to get on a given day is a lottery, then depending where you live in the city it\'s all different again! :argh:
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Post #10 made 8 years ago
by mally
I'll trade you our reservoirs for your weather? deal? :lol:
bundy wrote:Not sure if an alkalinity test is the same though. I thought it different to pH, related but not the same
You are correct, they are linked. The idea is that you will never have to worry about pH again though.

You are matching your grist to an "industry standard" pre-determined alkalinity level. i.e. lagers = low alkalinity, stouts = high alkalinity (very crude examples here). Therefore, once treated and grains added, your pH will be in the right area.

The only thing I have omitted is that Calcium levels are important, therefore, if you don't have enough calcium to begin with, you will need to add some.
As an example, I will use Gypsum &/or calcium chloride additions based on the style.

There is an excellent post here from Aleman, a respected, knowledgeable brewer here in the UK, that seems to explain everything superbly.
Last edited by mally on 25 Nov 2015, 16:44, edited 1 time in total.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Post #11 made 8 years ago
by bundy
Thanks for the link Mally. An interesting read and very thorough post.

I looked at what he was saying and compared it to the Spreadsheet I have decided to use to help me out. As I make adjustments to pH it does get my Alkalinity to low levels which apprently the author says is desired.

If you want to look I've attached here the Ez Water Calculator I am using with my Water profile results typed in up the top in Step # 1 (So if anyone uses this you have to put your own values in don't use mine as yours will be different)

Anyway those figures are the middle ground of the latest water report I could get for my area. Its never going to be 100% accurate but it at least gives me a base. At the bottom it gives a guide as to ranges to try and fall into for Ca, Mg, Na etc so as you adjust one thing it has an effect on another. to me anyway all very interesting.

Anyway I see how your man talks a lot about Alkalinity, and if you play around with the values on this sheet in section 4a. you can see how it has an effect on both pH and Alkalinity. Change the Grain bill to NRB's Amarillo and different Malt affects it all again, so that alone has a big influence as to what you are brewing.

Anyway all very interesting, you might find it handy (or you might not.)

Cheers
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Post #12 made 8 years ago
by mally
Bundy - I am sure the spreadsheet is easy to use/understand but on the few occasions I have tried I just find it overwhelming/cumbersome. :angry:

I am sure that EZ spreadsheet will help others that browse through here though.
Glad you have got to the point where you think your water is sorted :salute:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain
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