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Mash pH, should I care ???

Post #1 made 15 years ago
by scottmal
Hi Everyone, Bout to try out my first BIAB brew, I have read that mash pH is important to enzyme activity in the mash,does everyone test for it / worry about it ? Will the addition of the grain lower the ph of the mash, and by how much?( my water is around pH 7) :scratch:
I have read that the pH can be reduced by the addition of lactic acid but none of the suppliers over here (NZ) seem to sell it. Although citric and tartaric acids are in the supermarket, will they have to much taste to be useable? Basically should I be concerned with pH at my newbie level?

Cheers
Scottie

Post #2 made 15 years ago
by wizard78
G'day Scottie, welcome to the forum. My first bit of advice would be not to worry about the ph yet. Get a few biabs under your belt first, get your process right and dial in you equipment. If you wanted you could just get some ph strips and test the mash and record what you get, then if there is a problem then you can address it. You will still make good beer without any additions.
I've read differing results with 5.2 stabilizer, iirc it isn't effective if you have soft water (calcium deficient). Water chemistry can be complex and ph isn't the only thing important in to getting good mash activity.

Good luck with your brewing.
Cheers wiz
[center]"All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer."
[/center]
[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
[center]K.I.S.S., B.I.A.B.[/center]

Post #3 made 15 years ago
by Hippy
Hi Scotty.
To start with mate I wouldn't be getting to hung up on mash pH as long as your not brewing to the extremes of the colour spectrum ie very pale pilseners or dark stouts and porters.I can't speak for your local water supply but most well populated areas have a reasonable enough water supply to get away with not having to treat the water if you don't have the means. Concentrate on getting the process down on the first couple of brews and besides you'll now if the pH has had a big effect on your efficiency by the starting gravity you end up with. I would be going for a simple ale and aiming for a starting gravity of between 1040 and 1050 for starters.
pH is pretty important and there are a lot of factors affecting mash pH. The grain bill( ie type and amount of grain you are using) makes a big difference . To oversimplify the issue you could say the paler the malt the less acidic the mash pH will be and alternately the darker the malt the more acidic. Don't add citric or tartaric acid to the mash as these will impart an undesirable taste as well as forming undesirable salts when reacting with the malt, which can screw up your mash chemistry.
Personally, I find the whole mash pH thing very confusing as there are a myriad of factors involved. The water you use requires further analysis than just the pH but also the hardness(presence of calcium and magnesium salts).The best place to find this information is from your local water authority, who can provide you with a water report.
Basically you're aiming for a mash pH of around 5.2. I've found the easiest way to achieve this is by the addition of a product called 5.2 at mash in which is made by five star chemicals.5.2 is a blend of food grade phosphate buffers similar to brewers salts which will lock your mash pH in at 5.2 regrdless of the starting pH.
This stuff is gold and allows consistency of mashing leaving you free to concentrate on getting the other elements of BIAB right and does not affect the flavour of your beer at all.
I'm not sure where you could get your hands on it in NZ but you can order it online from craftbrewer.com in OZ.
Hope this has helped Scottie good luck with your first BIAB.
Cheers
Shaun

Post #4 made 15 years ago
by scottmal
Thanks joshua, Hippy and Wiz, that was very helpful!
My first brew is a pale ale with 11% crystal malt (medium) so hopefully I'll be ok on the pH front then.
I don't know about the hardness of my water but might consider getting a test done on it, I am using spring water that constantly pours out of the ground in a gully on a friends farm, It tastes great and is crystal clear and cold, thats about all I know about it!!
Thought I would do a couple of pale ales then have a go at some stouts, I gather from what hippy says that with a grain bill heavy on the darkness the wort could even become to acidic ? Would that 5.2 stuff still work in that case ?
This is my first go on this type of forum, it cool to be chattin with guys from the US and both sides of OZ, nice one!
Cheers guys
Scottie

Post #5 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
Great answers above :thumbs:

It's such a PITA/difficult question to answer. Some of the best brewers I know here in Perth are fanatical about pH and others couldn't care less. Both get gold medals on lagers but...

Here in Perth, my water tastes great but my sister's water, who lives 10 kms away in the Perth CBD, is disgusting - total prawn/shrimp taste. I put a water filter in there but wouldn't even consider one at my place.

When I lived on the east coast of Australia, my water also tasted fine. I mucked around with pH but I'd also sometimes forget to make adjustments and couldn't taste any difference though I mainly brew ales.

So, I suspect that pH is critical in some or maybe many situations. I don't know? What I did was buy some pH strips as suggested above and did adjust my pH using a variety of acids. (I also bought that 5.2 stuff and found it a waste of time.)

I do think though, for the cost of a few pH strips and some acidulated malt (with my water, and I subtract from the grain bill anyway) that knowing your pH and adjusting it accordingly will have no negative side so you might as well do it. I can't see a downside.

If you are getting several brews in a row of low efficiency (not just one and assuming you have copvered the other 6 basics) or your water tastes like crap then I think it is certainly one of the first things you should do.

Cheers,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 09 May 2011, 22:47, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #7 made 15 years ago
by wizard78
Grain and grape in Melbourne sell them and also craft brewer in brisbane, I don't think postage would be that much. I don't know about Adelaide though, maybe beerbelly?
[center]"All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer."
[/center]
[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
[center]K.I.S.S., B.I.A.B.[/center]

Post #8 made 15 years ago
by scottmal
Hi Folks, did the first brew tonight ! No problems. think I got pretty good efficiency..... , my OG came out at 1.050, assuming thats accurate, with 5.5 kg of grain and volume after boil of 25 liters I jiggled the efficiency figure on the Q-brew freeware I downloaded and the numbers matched up at about 73%. Does that sound about right to you guys?
Hard to say for sure with the pH strips I got, but looked to be between 5 and 6 pH, so that turned out ok too.
All in all pretty stoked with how it went!! Can't wait to try it !!
cheers,
Scottie

Post #9 made 15 years ago
by wizard78
Good stuff scottie, the whole process can be as simple as you let it be, no need to complicate things if you don't need to. As I mentioned earlier, get yur process down pat, then once your happy and comfortable with all that then start to fine tune.
Again well done, and good luck with the tasting, I'm sure it will be great.
Cheers wiz
[center]"All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer."
[/center]
[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
[center]K.I.S.S., B.I.A.B.[/center]

Post #10 made 15 years ago
by scottmal
Thanks Wiz, I'm Gona tweak the grain and starting volumes a bit as I only collected 21 L into fermenter and I have a 40 l urn.
Think I'll try 33-34 L start volume and 6 Kg grain bill, aiming for 27L end of boil vol. and 23 L into fermenter @ 1.055 O.G.

Cheers,
Scottie

Post #11 made 15 years ago
by hashie
scottmal wrote:Thanks Wiz, I'm Gona tweak the grain and starting volumes a bit as I only collected 21 L into fermenter and I have a 40 l urn.
Think I'll try 33-34 L start volume and 6 Kg grain bill, aiming for 27L end of boil vol. and 23 L into fermenter @ 1.055 O.G.

Cheers,
Scottie
G'day Scottie, I aim for 27 litres end of boil and use 37 litres as my starting volume to do this. It may be difficult for you in a 40 litre urn to start with this volume, some top up water pre-boil might be needed in your case.
Last edited by hashie on 11 May 2011, 06:04, edited 5 times in total.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #12 made 15 years ago
by scottmal
G'day Hashie, with 5.5 kg in my last brew I lost 4L to grain absorbtion, but only about 2L during the boil. my urn only has a 2000w element so I think my boil might not be vigorous enough for me to loose the amount predicted in the spreadsheets for a 60 min. boil.
I'm looking, (as any red blooded male would) to up the horsepower by adding another 2000w element in the side. Hope this would give me a better boil plus speed up the process a bit!
Post-mash water top up is a good Idea though! Is it cool to drop the temp after the mash by topping up ? or should it be heated too?

Cheers
Scottie

Post #13 made 15 years ago
by hashie
Adding cold water will simply make the process a bit longer, due to longer heating times.

If it was me I'd add boiling water from the kettle (tea kettle).
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

Post #14 made 15 years ago
by Hippy
Hi Scotty.
I use a 40L urn with a 35L starting volume and a grain bill of around 5.5 kilos. A good way to get a bit more into your final volume is to fill the kettle, boil and once it's cooled down a bit use that to sparge by firstly hoisting the bag over the urn and then pouring the water through the bag. It tends to give a bit more volume without diluting the wort. Once I've done this I usually give the bag a good squeeze with a couple of cereal bowls held upside down squeezing the bag to get a bit more goodness out.
You might struggle to get more than 35L starting volume with the 40L urn, especially if you up the grain bill as mine is pretty much chockas.

Post #15 made 15 years ago
by ianh
Mmm interesting, I also use a 40l urn start with about 31 litres of water and 5kg of grain. I only lose 1.5 litres to grain absorbtion after hoisting the bag and giving the bag a good squeeze.

Then boil for 70 minutes to get and after boil volume of about 25 litres for 23 litres into the fermenter.

And don't worry about mash pH till you other things sorted.

Post #16 made 15 years ago
by scottmal
Really!,that is interesting. Might try a bit more squeezing/draining next time and see if i can improve my grain loss.
How many watts is your urn Ian? cause you lost way more than me in the boil.
Cheers
Scottie

Post #17 made 15 years ago
by ianh
Hi Scottie

Mine is a 40l Crown Urn with a 2400W concealed element, get a boil off rate of 3.3-3.5 litres per hour.

My urn is lagged with a camping mat to reduce heat losses and you may also try with the lid half on during boiling. Don't have the lid on full as nasties need to escape but half is OK.

cheers

Ian
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