I refer to the section of The Calculator "Handy temperature adjusted figures (For straight sided kettles only)".
When I first got my urn I measured 5 litres of water in it (there is a bump in the middle - element underneath? - and a boil dry sensor). I then measured another addition of 5 litres and from this figured that every litre over the first five was 11.2mm. I've been using these figures but today decided to recalibrate, my eyesight not being what it used to be. Anyway I found that I had stuffed up the reading for the first 5 litres (amazing what a magnifying glass can do for your eyesight) and also found that I needed 6 litres to get above the tap and sightglass openings. After that every litre was 11mm, I was adding 1 litre at a time. Temperature of the water was 28.7 deg C (thermometer reads 99.9 in boiling wort). I note in the Calculator that at 20 deg C for a 33cm diameter a litre is said to measure 11.7mm. Is there some easy formula that allows for temperature of the water/wort?
Bob
Post #2 made 15 years ago
I don't know of a formula to help you, but being a fitter and turner I know there is not much difference between mm devisions on a rule.
I should also ask are you using a ruler? If so, how are you reading it, if you are looking down from an angle then you can get paralex error, so to get an accurate measurement you need to be square to it (front on). This can be difficult in our circumstances because of the sides of the kettle.
I'm not sure how much expasion you'll have @ 28.7 deg compared to 20, but I wouldn't think it would be a great deal.
Hope one of the mathematicians can help a bit more
Cheers
I should also ask are you using a ruler? If so, how are you reading it, if you are looking down from an angle then you can get paralex error, so to get an accurate measurement you need to be square to it (front on). This can be difficult in our circumstances because of the sides of the kettle.
I'm not sure how much expasion you'll have @ 28.7 deg compared to 20, but I wouldn't think it would be a great deal.
Hope one of the mathematicians can help a bit more
Cheers
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Post #3 made 15 years ago
With a straight sided boiler (urn) 11.7 mm = 1 litre; Pi R2 x H = Volume; (3.14 x (16.5 x 16.5)) x 1.17 = 1000.19 or 1 litre.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #4 made 15 years ago
hashie wrote:With a straight sided boiler (urn) 11.7 mm = 1 litre; Pi R2 x H = Volume; (3.14 x (16.5 x 16.5)) x 1.17 = 1000.19 or 1 litre.
OK, now I really feel like a knob. Either I was pished when I measured the urn the first time or it has grown. Diameter now 33.7cm. Using the above formula, that gives me (combined with the figure from the Calculator, 998.498, which is near enough for me. So now I have to go and alter all my recipes, but thanks anyway Hashie, you've steered me in the right direction. But it did get me back to 11.2mm/litre.
Wiz, the only way I could have got a more accurate measurement (no parallex) was to have gotten the missus to suspend me from my skyhook. I suspect that it wouldn't have handled the weight. I had my head so far into the urn, and using a good big magnifying glass, that I doubt that there would have been 1mm of error. Anyway, thanks fellas, now it's back to the drawing board so to speak.
Bob
Last edited by BobtheBrewer on 13 Jan 2011, 19:26, edited 5 times in total.
Post #5 made 15 years ago
LOL BobBobtheBrewer wrote:Wiz, the only way I could have got a more accurate measurement (no parallex) was to have gotten the missus to suspend me from my skyhook.
.There's lots of room for errors in measurements so don't think you are the only one that has difficulty with these things. One example is if you measure the diameter of your pot at one point and then turn the pot 90 degrees, you are likely to find yourself getting a different measurement by a few, maybe more, mms.
As for your question re volume 'temperature' adjustments, The Calculator does this very well at the chosen temps so you should treat them as reliable. (The formulas used were written individually for ambient, mash and boiling temps as there is no single formula that easily does all three.)
Cheers Bob and I hope you are keeping dry there in Queensland
.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Jan 2011, 20:16, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #6 made 15 years ago
One example is if you measure the diameter of your pot at one point and then turn the pot 90 degrees, you are likely to find yourself getting a different measurement by a few, maybe more, mms.
As for your question re volume 'temperature' adjustments, The Calculator does this very well at the chosen temps so you should treat them as reliable. (The formulas used were written individually for ambient, mash and boiling temps as there is no single formula that easily does all three.)
Cheers Bob and I hope you are keeping dry there in Queensland.[/quote]
Yeah Pat. It looks round but it isn't. The reason I asked about temp adjustments was that I thought measuring wort at say 65 deg after a mash might make some difference to final figures but I guess not. Feet dry here thankfully, unlike lots of other poor buggers.
Edit: Made the Schwartzbier today, used the temp converter and then as you suggested left each sample to come to ambient temp. No difference in the OG, but 6 points in the pre boil SG.
As for your question re volume 'temperature' adjustments, The Calculator does this very well at the chosen temps so you should treat them as reliable. (The formulas used were written individually for ambient, mash and boiling temps as there is no single formula that easily does all three.)
Cheers Bob and I hope you are keeping dry there in Queensland
.[/quote]Yeah Pat. It looks round but it isn't. The reason I asked about temp adjustments was that I thought measuring wort at say 65 deg after a mash might make some difference to final figures but I guess not. Feet dry here thankfully, unlike lots of other poor buggers.
Edit: Made the Schwartzbier today, used the temp converter and then as you suggested left each sample to come to ambient temp. No difference in the OG, but 6 points in the pre boil SG.
Post #7 made 15 years ago
Good to hear your feet are still dry Bob!
1. Yes, temperature does affect volume measurements.
2. Fortunately, if you have a straight-sided kettle like you do, The Calculator, (in the section at the bottom) makes the volume temperature adjustments for you and this, when you study it, can come in handy.
I find it really handy as I have an instantaneous gas hot water heater. So, if The Calculator tells me in Cell B20 on the first sheet that I need x L, while most brewers would look at Cell D29 to work out how many cms of cold water (at 20 C) to add to their kettle, I look at Cell D30.
All brewing software has it's problems. No two programs, for example, will agree on IBU's or gravities. One thing I like about The Calculator is that it is, "accountable." In other words, if you change one figure, it is possible to see why other figures change - it makes you focus on the individual stages of brewing.
The Calculator doesn't look brilliant but it also has some features that can't be found in any other brewing software such as the volume temperature adjustments we have talked about here plus the evaporation rate formula. It mightn't be point and click but it does work very well and it does make you think.
So, keep investigating and playing with it Bob. Also "challenge" yourself to find the answers. This last sentence should not discourage you from asking questions but more put you in a position to hand on your findings to other brewers. This whole recipe area is very challenging. Some bits are obvious in hindsight but heaps are not.
I have already seen you pass on some encouragement in this area to others so keep your studies up mate
PP
Off-Topic: One other quick tutorial
, The moderators here seem to keep fixing things but if they don't jump in before you read this, try playing around with your post above so as it appears as follows...
I might be getting this wrong but...BobtheBrewer wrote:The reason I asked about temp adjustments was that I thought measuring wort at say 65 deg after a mash might make some difference to final figures but I guess not.
1. Yes, temperature does affect volume measurements.
2. Fortunately, if you have a straight-sided kettle like you do, The Calculator, (in the section at the bottom) makes the volume temperature adjustments for you and this, when you study it, can come in handy.
I find it really handy as I have an instantaneous gas hot water heater. So, if The Calculator tells me in Cell B20 on the first sheet that I need x L, while most brewers would look at Cell D29 to work out how many cms of cold water (at 20 C) to add to their kettle, I look at Cell D30.
All brewing software has it's problems. No two programs, for example, will agree on IBU's or gravities. One thing I like about The Calculator is that it is, "accountable." In other words, if you change one figure, it is possible to see why other figures change - it makes you focus on the individual stages of brewing.
The Calculator doesn't look brilliant but it also has some features that can't be found in any other brewing software such as the volume temperature adjustments we have talked about here plus the evaporation rate formula. It mightn't be point and click but it does work very well and it does make you think.
So, keep investigating and playing with it Bob. Also "challenge" yourself to find the answers. This last sentence should not discourage you from asking questions but more put you in a position to hand on your findings to other brewers. This whole recipe area is very challenging. Some bits are obvious in hindsight but heaps are not.
I have already seen you pass on some encouragement in this area to others so keep your studies up mate
PP
Off-Topic: One other quick tutorial
, The moderators here seem to keep fixing things but if they don't jump in before you read this, try playing around with your post above so as it appears as follows...What I think is happening is that you are cutting off the first bit of the quote i.e.PistolPatch wrote:One example is if you measure the diameter of your pot at one point and then turn the pot 90 degrees, you are likely to find yourself getting a different measurement by a few, maybe more, mms.
As for your question re volume 'temperature' adjustments, The Calculator does this very well at the chosen temps so you should treat them as reliable. (The formulas used were written individually for ambient, mash and boiling temps as there is no single formula that easily does all three.)
Cheers Bob and I hope you are keeping dry there in Queensland .
PistolPatch wrote:. If you work it out before they fix all this, hit the exclamation mark on the bottom right of this post and the moderators will delete what I have written here. If the above still doesn't make sense, still report the post but ask them for help. They'll understand my ramblings!
Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Jan 2011, 22:03, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #8 made 15 years ago
Well, here I am again but with a different question about the calculator. In the Hop Bill section, how do you figure in dry hopping. I have just been putting it in as a 1 min addition. I am using the table for no chill, and hoping that the dry hopping will work. Have a lot of reading to do to come to grips with FWH.
Bob
Bob
Post #9 made 15 years ago
I believe dry hopping won't have any effect on the bitterness as the alpha acids won't get isomerized below say 78C.
So, it doesn't have any affect on the IBUs, thus you don't need to worry about it. Dry hopping is purely about aroma.
So, it doesn't have any affect on the IBUs, thus you don't need to worry about it. Dry hopping is purely about aroma.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III
5/7/12
Post #10 made 15 years ago
Thanks stux, I should have realised that. Guess I', trying to over complicate things,
Bob
Bob
