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Maxi Biab advice

Post #1 made 9 years ago
by Gazkilla
Hi, I've got 7 Biabs under my belt and everything's going great :drink:
I have a 70 litre pot and I've been doing 23L batches,however I really like my last Abbots ale
and I'm thinking of doing a double batch. My pot will only let me go to a 40l batch so I'm looking
at Maxi Biab and sparging with the extra 6 litres to get a better efficiency.
I thought it was a case of just doubling up on all ingredients but I've been told I should add an extra 10%
on all grain & hops to make up for the efficiency and lost hop utilisation.
How do others do it?

Post #2 made 9 years ago
by joshua
Gazkilla, I have done this process with a 31L pot, to make a 5 Gallon/21L "Double" batch.

You do not need to add any grain or hops to the recipe, there is no loss if Efficiency with Maxi-BIAB!!!

Sparging the Grain Bill, does not add very much to Efficiency. But, It is good, not to waste the High Gravity Sweet Liquor that remains in the Bag.

You will need another Pot to hold the grain Bag, so, you can add the Held-over TWN to that pot, and then REALLY squeeze the &^%* out of the bag, then add the water and sweet Liquor to the boil.
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Post #3 made 9 years ago
by Rick
Most of us here use the BIABacus, it's a spreadsheet created by the great minds on this site. You can find it here.

Once recipe is entered, you can double, triple, halve it ... in a matter of seconds. Everything is calculated automatically once the base recipe is entered properly.

Also, sparging isn't going to be necessary for your goal. The idea of BIAB/full volume brewing is to start with total water needed in the pot. The water you plan to sparge with can go into the mash, which dilutes the mash enough for an increase of kettle efficiency.

If the desired volume will not fit into your kettle, you can simply withhold some water from the mash, and add it back pre-boil while still getting great kettle efficiency.

Sparging is only needed if a significant amount of water needs to be with-held. By the looks of your goal here, you probably will only have to withhold a trivial amount.

Enter your recipe into the BIABacus, then post the file here if any further help is required.
Last edited by Rick on 21 Oct 2014, 00:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 9 years ago
by jhough
Gazkilla, Rick is correct about the water add to the boil, but, if you dunk sparge the bag whilst bring up the sweet liquor to a boil , it will help to keep the efficiency up. Remember , the more mash water, or in your case sparge water , that touches the grains the more conversion will happen. This is the basic idea of Biab , get the most mash water touching the grain , to get the most efficiency, with the least amount of hassles (in a nutshell ) . We try to put all the water in the pot to mash so we do not need 3V.
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Re: Re:

Post #7 made 9 years ago
by Lumpy5oh
robeer wrote:Wait! I thought dunking doesn't help. viewtopic.php?f=41&t=2558
I agree. Dunking at this point won't yield any more points. You may get a good workout.
Once mashing is completed you want to get as much water out of your grains as possible. I don't think dunking will allow the water to drain.
Last edited by Lumpy5oh on 11 Nov 2014, 06:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Oh dear! Everyone's a bit right but some more than others...

robeer has the best link :clap:.

The Golden rule is, "If you can fit all the water needed for the brew into the mash, then do that." Every other deviation will cost you in either equipment, quality, efficiency or labour.

If anyone tells you to sparge when you could have put that water retained for sparging into the mash, they are incorrect.

It's a bit like me saying to you if you drink coffee and have two teaspoons of sugar that you will only need one and a half teaspoons if you add the hot water in two hits.

Make sense now?
PP
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Post #9 made 9 years ago
by robeer
Makes sense. If I want to end with 10 gallons of All Amarillo using a 15.5 keggle, biabicus says I must hold some water out. Where do you hold it out from? TWN? SWN? Or is it in addition to TWN?
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Post #10 made 9 years ago
by Rick
Entering the withheld water in Section W calculates SWN/TWN automatically, and then recalculates efficiency.
Last edited by Rick on 12 Nov 2014, 09:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #11 made 9 years ago
by joshua
RoBeer, in section 'W' there is "Water Used In Sparge", Why it says Sparge I do not Know. MODNOTE: Our hope with Clear Brewing Terminology is that everything will be self-expalanatory so please PM Pat as to what you are finding unclear about, "Water Used in a Sparge."

This adjusts the calculations for 'SWN' automatically, Also.
Last edited by joshua on 12 Nov 2014, 02:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #12 made 9 years ago
by robeer
So I begin by filling the keggle with the volume noted in TWN and then add the amount I entered in section W after the mash?
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Post #13 made 9 years ago
by joshua
Robeer, Can you post the .XLS, so we can Check it???
Last edited by joshua on 12 Nov 2014, 10:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #14 made 9 years ago
by Rick
robeer wrote:So I begin by filling the keggle with the volume noted in TWN and then add the amount I entered in section W after the mash?
Everything should be sorted before you brew. You'll need to be more specific with what you are asking, because I add the TWN to the kettle first no matter what prior to mashing. But, I think that would mislead you.

My process, even if I'm withholding water ... I put the TWN into the kettle first. Then, I treat the full volume with necessary brewing salts, measure the volume to ensure accuracy, then transfer desired withheld amount to a holding vessel (growler or carboy).

Dough in, complete mash, pull bag ... add in withheld water before the boil while the bag is draining.

Everyone's process is going to be different. I would imagine that a "radical" maxi-BIAB might require brewing salts be handled differently. For me, it's usually just 2-3L water being withheld from a 46L VAW batch size ... which amounts to a trivial difference from my predetermined mash pH.

SWN will reflect the water amounts that you withhold in section W. The more water you withhold, the more your kettle efficiency will drop ... which the BIABacus will recalculate as you withhold water. TWN and SWN will change slightly for this reason, as will grain totals.

I hope that makes sense, kinda drunk right now.
Last edited by Rick on 12 Nov 2014, 09:49, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #15 made 9 years ago
by robeer
Ah, much appreciated. I'm not quite to the level of treating water. Just going straight off the (water) tap. Biabacus says I can hold out 3 gallons. So I think you're saying fill keggle to TWN minus 3 gallons. Mash. Then pull bag and add three gallons of cold water then boil. Have I got that right?
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Post #16 made 9 years ago
by mally
Gazkilla - I don't know if you have completed this brew yet, but I have looked at your BIABacus file you posted here.
Did you alter your version as recommended by Rick?

If everything is correctly entered I noticed you can change your VIF to 38L with the mash just under overflowing (so 36/37L is a safer bet). If you use a hopsock though you can go to 40L with just about overflowing. What I am saying here is that you are very close to your required VIF without holding any water back.
It's ultimately your choice, you can either full volume mash with a slightly lower VIF than you originally wanted. Or you can withhold some water to add later to increase you VIF at the expense of some extra grain.
Have a play around with the BIABacus and see how withholding water affects your grain bill. I have heard that 20-30% withheld is the maximum to go to as beyond that is diminishing returns. i.e. the more you withold the more grain will be required.

robeer - are you doing this same Abbot ale, or is it just the principles you are interested in? As Joshua said, if you post your BIABacus it will give us information about your system and what you are hoping to achieve so we can offer better advice.
As for terminologies etc. this guide here can be useful
Last edited by mally on 12 Nov 2014, 16:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #17 made 9 years ago
by robeer
Just trying to figure out the first few steps here. Add TWN minus 3 gallons to kettle, mash, pull bag, add 3 gallons cold water, boil?
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Post #18 made 9 years ago
by mally
Sounds OK to me robeer.
Your cold water works out at approx 45L (11.9G), once heated to strike this volume would match SWN (45.82L/12.1G).
Just some things I noticed or are probably worth mentioning.
I am presuming the original recipe, OG, VAW etc. are unchanged.
Your dilutions are getting close to maximum (around 20%). Not a problem, just worth mentioning.
Section X you have an adjustment for volume loss from lauter. Was this intentional? I must admit I haven't a clue what is going on with this calculation here as I have never used it, I just wanted to check you knew it was there.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #19 made 9 years ago
by safebrew222
That figure in Section X is the estimate of the amount of liquid lost to grain absorption. Pat recommended this adjustment somewhere for this version of the BIABacus as a way to keep the volumes in line with the volumes in previous versions of the spreadsheet. I can't find the reference but he said to not get too attached to the adjustment as it will be dealt with differently in the main release of the BIABacus.
Last edited by safebrew222 on 13 Nov 2014, 20:23, edited 1 time in total.

Post #20 made 9 years ago
by mally
aaahhh.....
Kind of rings a bell now you have mentioned it safebrew. :salute:

looks like you have nothing to worry about there then robeer.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #21 made 7 years ago
by Scott
Hi All,

I'm preparing to do my annual "Fresh Hop Pale Ale" (last year was my first, and turned out so well that I plan to make it an "annual" event :drink: ).

I have a 16 gallon Bayou Classic pot. Last year I did the max amount of volume that the BIABacus said I could do... Wound up with 9.5 gallons into the fermenter. Actually split it into two 4.2 gallon batches and fermented with different yeasts (American Ale Yeast, and NW Ale Yeast). Similar but a little different... Last year used some dried Cascade hops at 75 minutes and then used the fresh Cascade for all of the flavor additions. This year will also use the fresh Cascades for flavor. For bittering, thinking about using some 2014 Columbus (CTZ) hops, as I had about a pound given to me and don't want it to go to waste.

I can go 5 gallons into each keg so I want to come as close to maxing that out as possible, and remember people "withholding water" to get a higher finished beer volume. Found this thread... If some of you could give this a look, let me know if it looks okay. Basically holding back 3 gallons and plan to add about 30 minutes into the 90 minute boil. EIB / Efficiency ends up really low though... 73.9% EIB.

jhough mentions a "Dunk Sparge"... I've been able to get more sugar out of grain that I've used for regular mashing (converted to yeast starters), and seems like I should be able to get some here too. So if I take 3 gallons to mash temperature and when I pull the bag from the 16 gallon brew kettle, put it in my old 5 gallon pot that is pulled off the burner... That should end up "sparging" more sugar from the grains and will be added back to the boil pot - right? So efficiency should be higher than the 73.9%? Theoretically... I tried putting the 3 gallons in as a Sparge (where it says efficiency should be like 79-80% or so, and the BIABacus says you can't do that - too high of wort volume going into boil. I think it is assuming a traditional sparge rather than the "Dunk Sparge"... One would think my actual efficiency should wind up closer to the 78-79%, right?

Anyhow, trying to get some affirmation that I'm doing this right. And if you have any thoughts, please let me know.

Thanks, Scott
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Post #22 made 7 years ago
by jhough
Scott, home in between jobs today. The dunk spark will get some more sugars out, though minimal. I stopped doing that when I bought a 15 gal pot. What I was trying to achieve was a 5 g/ 22.75 l VIF . The only way to do that in a 5g pot was to add back sparge water to boil , then add 1gal water to fermentor. Trying to keep all numbers in line. I'll answer 2nd part tonight after I finish my last car later.
J
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