Im at the stage where i will be ordering items to make my vessel.
I wanted to fit a false bottom andcan easliy make one at work but i am worried that if the element is below it i would get scorching,
I want to have heater below with ball valve oposite so i can recurculate via mag pump upto the top in the bag . Also where would be best to put temp probe?
Post #2 made 8 years ago
thughes will be a great one to ask on this and will know some links to point you to. There can be several problems with re-circulating for example.
In this post though I'll focus on trying to help you avoid errors I have made. I, in the past, like all brewers got excited about all sorts of equipment but...
Make equipment decisions very slowly and carefully. Check out my pic in this post. Nearly all that stuff I no longer use - the extra equipment just cost me time and money.
One thing we often forget is that making wort, especially with BIAB, is really simple and just a small part of the brewing process. A few agitations and then temperature checks during the mash is all you need. When adding heat, either lift the bag or agitate. All these things are easy
.
I personally wouldn't buy a temperature probe (or sight gauge) for several reasons; another hole in your kettle; possible source of infection; makes things harder to clean (nothing like cleaning a kettle with no holes in it - very fast); you are relying on one thermometer; you do need to calibrate them regularly and unless you agitate the wort, your temperature reading will be false; the probe gets in the way of your bag; and, intrusions into the kettle disturb a whirlpool if you ever want to do one. (A pump may or may not fix the agitation problem depending on how it is set-up.).
For now*, I would be keeping things as simple as possible. For example, I pierce a lid with my thermometer probe and float it on the wort as seen here.
I would hold off on the ball-valve as well for now. Read here and on a bit. Also, read the following which shows how much extra work is really required when cleaning a kettle with holes - that is one of the most important posts I've ever written I reckon.
I'm actually getting the holes in my kettles welded up so as it returns to a normal stock-pot. Complicating my kettle was a really bad move - very costly in on-going time costs.
* I said "for now" above for a few reasons. Firstly, you can get brewing right away. Secondly, you can add stuff later, if you choose to do so. Finally, for the last few months, for the new site, I have been focussing on simple equipment used in clever ways to make brewing as easy as possible so I'd wait to see what I come up with.
This new method, allows you to add things, if you want to but without making any existing equipment redundant. In other words, it is what I would have done in hindsight instead of ending up with a room full of useless equipment that has cost so much in time and money.
Yikes!!!
PP
In this post though I'll focus on trying to help you avoid errors I have made. I, in the past, like all brewers got excited about all sorts of equipment but...
Make equipment decisions very slowly and carefully. Check out my pic in this post. Nearly all that stuff I no longer use - the extra equipment just cost me time and money.
One thing we often forget is that making wort, especially with BIAB, is really simple and just a small part of the brewing process. A few agitations and then temperature checks during the mash is all you need. When adding heat, either lift the bag or agitate. All these things are easy
.I personally wouldn't buy a temperature probe (or sight gauge) for several reasons; another hole in your kettle; possible source of infection; makes things harder to clean (nothing like cleaning a kettle with no holes in it - very fast); you are relying on one thermometer; you do need to calibrate them regularly and unless you agitate the wort, your temperature reading will be false; the probe gets in the way of your bag; and, intrusions into the kettle disturb a whirlpool if you ever want to do one. (A pump may or may not fix the agitation problem depending on how it is set-up.).
For now*, I would be keeping things as simple as possible. For example, I pierce a lid with my thermometer probe and float it on the wort as seen here.
I would hold off on the ball-valve as well for now. Read here and on a bit. Also, read the following which shows how much extra work is really required when cleaning a kettle with holes - that is one of the most important posts I've ever written I reckon.
I'm actually getting the holes in my kettles welded up so as it returns to a normal stock-pot. Complicating my kettle was a really bad move - very costly in on-going time costs.
* I said "for now" above for a few reasons. Firstly, you can get brewing right away. Secondly, you can add stuff later, if you choose to do so. Finally, for the last few months, for the new site, I have been focussing on simple equipment used in clever ways to make brewing as easy as possible so I'd wait to see what I come up with.
This new method, allows you to add things, if you want to but without making any existing equipment redundant. In other words, it is what I would have done in hindsight instead of ending up with a room full of useless equipment that has cost so much in time and money.
Yikes!!!
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 08 May 2016, 00:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 made 8 years ago
What size is your kettle?
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Post #4 made 8 years ago
Going to get a 33 litre one from Angel Homebrew. I want to use electric and did think about having an induction hob but i do like the look of the Brew boss system and the like. I do tend to run before I can walk lol. I'm converting my pasta mill at the moment so I'll finish that first and keep reading and learning. Pot size is going to be 350mm by 350mm but I'm holding off till I decide what direction I;m going in
Post #5 made 8 years ago
I think PP laid it out pretty well (sorry I missed this thread yesterday). Many of us have gone down the road of building a really cool high tech rig only to eventually come to the realization that simple is best. Some folks are good at taking advice and learning from the mistakes of other, some folks need to figure it out for themselves. That said...
False bottom: May actually impede flow and contribute to scorching. It creates space under the bag....if you recirculate too aggressively the wort may not be able to flow through the grain bed, bag, and holes in false bottom quickly enough to replace what you are drawing in, thereby inducing cavitation (air space...kind of) around the element which will quickly scorch wort and also play havoc with your temperature readings if your temp probe is located in the same vicinity.
This can also happen without a false bottom (ask me how I know). The solution to any wort scorching problems should you decide to actively recirculate is to constantly stir the mash to keep the grain suspended. So now you need to build some type of automated stirring mechanism (it's been done, search the forums here). When you consider that 20-30 liters of liquid has a pretty high thermal mass and won't lose heat quickly enough to be a concern over a 90 minute mash, you eventually come to a realization: Simply bringing the mash up to temp, throwing a blanket around the kettle, and stirring it a couple of times over the course of 90 minutes works just fine and makes excellent beer. If you need to figure this out on your own it will cost you quite a few $$ in equipment as well as possibly a burnt batch or two and several brew sessions worth of time. If you are good at taking advice, it will cost you nothing.
Ball valve: PP and I differ here but he has some very valid points, the most important being that it is a great source for an infection to set up residence. I prefer the convenience of transferring boiling hot wort with the flick of a valve handle as opposed to mucking with a siphon but I also disassemble/clean/sanitize my ball valve religiously. It's a matter of personal choice here.
Temp probe: There is no best place to put it (at least not that I have found yet. Mine is mounted in the bottom of the kettle and gives erratic readings at times o I have resorted to using a glass laboratory thermometer to verify readings. I will be pulling mine out of the kettle one of these days and going with the "floating probe" as PP linked to.
Hopefully you find some of this advice valuable,
---Todd
False bottom: May actually impede flow and contribute to scorching. It creates space under the bag....if you recirculate too aggressively the wort may not be able to flow through the grain bed, bag, and holes in false bottom quickly enough to replace what you are drawing in, thereby inducing cavitation (air space...kind of) around the element which will quickly scorch wort and also play havoc with your temperature readings if your temp probe is located in the same vicinity.
This can also happen without a false bottom (ask me how I know). The solution to any wort scorching problems should you decide to actively recirculate is to constantly stir the mash to keep the grain suspended. So now you need to build some type of automated stirring mechanism (it's been done, search the forums here). When you consider that 20-30 liters of liquid has a pretty high thermal mass and won't lose heat quickly enough to be a concern over a 90 minute mash, you eventually come to a realization: Simply bringing the mash up to temp, throwing a blanket around the kettle, and stirring it a couple of times over the course of 90 minutes works just fine and makes excellent beer. If you need to figure this out on your own it will cost you quite a few $$ in equipment as well as possibly a burnt batch or two and several brew sessions worth of time. If you are good at taking advice, it will cost you nothing.
Ball valve: PP and I differ here but he has some very valid points, the most important being that it is a great source for an infection to set up residence. I prefer the convenience of transferring boiling hot wort with the flick of a valve handle as opposed to mucking with a siphon but I also disassemble/clean/sanitize my ball valve religiously. It's a matter of personal choice here.
Temp probe: There is no best place to put it (at least not that I have found yet. Mine is mounted in the bottom of the kettle and gives erratic readings at times o I have resorted to using a glass laboratory thermometer to verify readings. I will be pulling mine out of the kettle one of these days and going with the "floating probe" as PP linked to.
Hopefully you find some of this advice valuable,
---Todd
WWBBD?
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Post #6 made 8 years ago
Think the route will be just a ball valve, I think the price of an induction hob will be too much but I am worried about how much gas I would use and the cost etc.. Like I said before I tend to over think things lol
Oh and buying a 71 litre pot from empire supplies online. Professional quality catering stock pot for £89
someone said buy the biggest you can afford so I blame you lot and bei g as I am keeping it simple I've got more to spe don the pot
Oh and buying a 71 litre pot from empire supplies online. Professional quality catering stock pot for £89
someone said buy the biggest you can afford so I blame you lot and bei g as I am keeping it simple I've got more to spe don the pot
Post #7 made 8 years ago
Hey Hoover,
Both PP and thughes both had GREAT advice for you (above). Figured I would add my own perspective, which is similar but not identical. Was just a couple years ago that I was undergoing the same exercise of trying to figure what to order to set up my brew system, and not wanting to make a mistake...not wanting to do it twice, and do things perfectly (?) the first time. Reading the brew blogs...with advice that runs the gamut. Hard to know who to believe and listen to. (That said, PP and thughes will never steer you wrong - and BIABbrewer.info as a blog is much more reliable than others). Most people stock up with way more crap than you need which just adds to the complexity and cleaning time.
The pot that I chose (back at the start of my BIAB brewing) has both a temperature probe and ball valve. The temperature gauge can be helpful especially when you getting your strike water so that you don't have to put in a temperature gauge and measure it manually. And I am always very careful when lifting the bag out of the pot so that it doesn't hang up on the temperature probe... Until the day that I wasn't, a couple of brews sessions ago. The bag caught on the probe and not paying as close of attention as I normally do...I ripped the bag when using the pulley to pull the bag out of the wort (had to sew the bag by hand to repair it). At times (like when slightly pulling bag up off bottom of pot so I can heat wort to higher temp during a step mash) this gauge doesn't show correct temperature (as it is outside the bag) and I have to measure temp on the inside of the bag as well... Other times it is the same or within 1 degree F of that measured inside the bag on my system. So the temp probe is helpful but less so than I anticipated, and it has drawbacks too...
I have been happy with the ball valve. The siphon in that I used to have before BIAB was very basic. Had to fill a long tube with water to get the process started and was a pain. So the ball valve is way easier than that... I cool the wort before transferring it to the fermenter (plug short tube into the nipple on the ball valve, and put in the top of the fermenter). I do have to be careful and make sure to clean things well in the pot before putting away after brewing. And they now have much more simple to use siphons where you have some kind of a built-in a hand pump to get the process started and those look really nice as well. Maybe that would be just as simple... But the siphon would have to be cleaned as well and I'm not sure which would be easier to clean. Maybe a flip of the coin (?)...not sure.
Automation I Wished I Had Not Purchased...
With my normal brew styles and effect on hops, I like cooling directly after the boil vs. no-chill. (Some beer styles it doesn't matter.) My first chiller was a counterflow wort chiller. It has copper tubing inside of a garden hose basically...with cool water going one way and hot wort the other. Thought that I could use gravity vs. having to use a pump, and it ould be really cool... What a pain!!! It did not work very well without the use of a pump. And cleaning and sanitizing after the brew session was a royal pain as well, and certainly didn't want to add a pump and increase the complexity and cleaning time. Sold the device to a 3-vessel home brewer guy that likes extra complex things...
I now use an immersion wort chiller that I made. Probably larger diameter tubing and longer than I really needed to but I wanted it to work well. Can take 6.5 gallons of wort from 214 deg F to under 100 deg F in 5 minutes, and down to 70 deg F in another 5 minutes. Works way better! And much easier to clean and sanitize than the counterflow wort chiller.
Best of luck to you, and hope you buy good equipment - but keep it simple. Point is that PP and thughes are really doing you a favor trying to steer you in the "simple equipment" or "simple process" direction. The KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) approach is normally best.
Both PP and thughes both had GREAT advice for you (above). Figured I would add my own perspective, which is similar but not identical. Was just a couple years ago that I was undergoing the same exercise of trying to figure what to order to set up my brew system, and not wanting to make a mistake...not wanting to do it twice, and do things perfectly (?) the first time. Reading the brew blogs...with advice that runs the gamut. Hard to know who to believe and listen to. (That said, PP and thughes will never steer you wrong - and BIABbrewer.info as a blog is much more reliable than others). Most people stock up with way more crap than you need which just adds to the complexity and cleaning time.
The pot that I chose (back at the start of my BIAB brewing) has both a temperature probe and ball valve. The temperature gauge can be helpful especially when you getting your strike water so that you don't have to put in a temperature gauge and measure it manually. And I am always very careful when lifting the bag out of the pot so that it doesn't hang up on the temperature probe... Until the day that I wasn't, a couple of brews sessions ago. The bag caught on the probe and not paying as close of attention as I normally do...I ripped the bag when using the pulley to pull the bag out of the wort (had to sew the bag by hand to repair it). At times (like when slightly pulling bag up off bottom of pot so I can heat wort to higher temp during a step mash) this gauge doesn't show correct temperature (as it is outside the bag) and I have to measure temp on the inside of the bag as well... Other times it is the same or within 1 degree F of that measured inside the bag on my system. So the temp probe is helpful but less so than I anticipated, and it has drawbacks too...
I have been happy with the ball valve. The siphon in that I used to have before BIAB was very basic. Had to fill a long tube with water to get the process started and was a pain. So the ball valve is way easier than that... I cool the wort before transferring it to the fermenter (plug short tube into the nipple on the ball valve, and put in the top of the fermenter). I do have to be careful and make sure to clean things well in the pot before putting away after brewing. And they now have much more simple to use siphons where you have some kind of a built-in a hand pump to get the process started and those look really nice as well. Maybe that would be just as simple... But the siphon would have to be cleaned as well and I'm not sure which would be easier to clean. Maybe a flip of the coin (?)...not sure.
Automation I Wished I Had Not Purchased...
With my normal brew styles and effect on hops, I like cooling directly after the boil vs. no-chill. (Some beer styles it doesn't matter.) My first chiller was a counterflow wort chiller. It has copper tubing inside of a garden hose basically...with cool water going one way and hot wort the other. Thought that I could use gravity vs. having to use a pump, and it ould be really cool... What a pain!!! It did not work very well without the use of a pump. And cleaning and sanitizing after the brew session was a royal pain as well, and certainly didn't want to add a pump and increase the complexity and cleaning time. Sold the device to a 3-vessel home brewer guy that likes extra complex things...
I now use an immersion wort chiller that I made. Probably larger diameter tubing and longer than I really needed to but I wanted it to work well. Can take 6.5 gallons of wort from 214 deg F to under 100 deg F in 5 minutes, and down to 70 deg F in another 5 minutes. Works way better! And much easier to clean and sanitize than the counterflow wort chiller.
Best of luck to you, and hope you buy good equipment - but keep it simple. Point is that PP and thughes are really doing you a favor trying to steer you in the "simple equipment" or "simple process" direction. The KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) approach is normally best.
Last edited by Scott on 09 May 2016, 04:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 8 years ago
I'm taking my time and asking this time as my last attempt smelt like trumps and tasted like homebrew.
Post #9 made 8 years ago
Practice makes perfect and you can drink (most of) your mistakes. It's a win-win!
---Todd
---Todd
WWBBD?
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Post #10 made 8 years ago
Hoover, this is one of the funniest threads ever (for me at least)!
Let's look at this thread...
You asked a question and, by my reckoning, I think about four hours (more probably, eight) would have been spent answering it (this does not include any links given above).
For me, it's funny because you haven't acknowledged any of the good advice given above so far. This is your second thread. The first one was titled, "Brew ABA wosit."
What did that even mean?
We are all pretty funny and very relaxed brewers here so we love a bit of fun. But, looking back in all your posts and particularly in this thread, I'm wondering.
Please don't take the hours spent on answering questions here for granted. I really hope you are not doing that.
...
If anyone else is still reading this thread, here is yet another way of trying to explain what we are getting at on equipment...
Do you have a ball-valve on your saucepan, the one you use on your stove-top every day to boil vegetables. Why haven't you added equipment to that saucepan? The answer is obvious.
It's called economies of scale.
We home brewers are not producing a million litres/gallons of beer per week. This gives us heaps of advantages. It also can give you a heap of disadvantages if you try and emulate a commercial brewery.
Putting a ball-valve and anything else on a 33 litre kettle is ridiculous Hoover. In your last post, you said, and I think we are finally starting to get to the root of the problem, "I'm taking my time and asking this time as my last attempt smelt like trumps and tasted like homebrew."
Why do you think more equipment will solve that problem?
Let's look at this thread...
You asked a question and, by my reckoning, I think about four hours (more probably, eight) would have been spent answering it (this does not include any links given above).
For me, it's funny because you haven't acknowledged any of the good advice given above so far. This is your second thread. The first one was titled, "Brew ABA wosit."
What did that even mean?
We are all pretty funny and very relaxed brewers here so we love a bit of fun. But, looking back in all your posts and particularly in this thread, I'm wondering.
Please don't take the hours spent on answering questions here for granted. I really hope you are not doing that.
...
If anyone else is still reading this thread, here is yet another way of trying to explain what we are getting at on equipment...
Do you have a ball-valve on your saucepan, the one you use on your stove-top every day to boil vegetables. Why haven't you added equipment to that saucepan? The answer is obvious.
It's called economies of scale.
We home brewers are not producing a million litres/gallons of beer per week. This gives us heaps of advantages. It also can give you a heap of disadvantages if you try and emulate a commercial brewery.
Putting a ball-valve and anything else on a 33 litre kettle is ridiculous Hoover. In your last post, you said, and I think we are finally starting to get to the root of the problem, "I'm taking my time and asking this time as my last attempt smelt like trumps and tasted like homebrew."
Why do you think more equipment will solve that problem?
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Post #11 made 8 years ago
Point taken, I do tend to over complicate things and over think. At the end of the day I want to make a full mash beer that tastes as it should and not like my last!
I will study the excel sheet more and more than likely when I do get a pot and put the details in it may start making sense. The whole reason I started this thread was to save me making a balls up and possibly ruining a pot and wasting money. I now know not to put holes in the pot but thought a ball valve would make life easier. Yes I ask silly questions and flit from one idea I o another but it's how my brain works, sorry if you find it hard to keep up lol .
I will study the excel sheet more and more than likely when I do get a pot and put the details in it may start making sense. The whole reason I started this thread was to save me making a balls up and possibly ruining a pot and wasting money. I now know not to put holes in the pot but thought a ball valve would make life easier. Yes I ask silly questions and flit from one idea I o another but it's how my brain works, sorry if you find it hard to keep up lol .
Post #12 made 8 years ago
Hey Hoover,
I understand the process you are going through and your intent (to be better and not make mistakes).
But If you could...please take the time on the detail of your posts (including your post titles)...to write things with more clarity. Things like typos and incomplete post titles make your posts more difficult to understand. (Maybe proof-read...) And then please make sure to review what we tell you, see if your answer is there...and then respond more fully to what we told you so we know that the time we invested trying to help was well spent...that what we said was understood. As PistolPatch pointed out, providing quality answers to questions takes a lot of time on our end! Fair enough?
I know you're trying to do things better. This will help us help you, and make sure our time is maximized as well.
Thanks, Scott
I understand the process you are going through and your intent (to be better and not make mistakes).
But If you could...please take the time on the detail of your posts (including your post titles)...to write things with more clarity. Things like typos and incomplete post titles make your posts more difficult to understand. (Maybe proof-read...) And then please make sure to review what we tell you, see if your answer is there...and then respond more fully to what we told you so we know that the time we invested trying to help was well spent...that what we said was understood. As PistolPatch pointed out, providing quality answers to questions takes a lot of time on our end! Fair enough?
I know you're trying to do things better. This will help us help you, and make sure our time is maximized as well.
Thanks, Scott
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Post #13 made 8 years ago
Typos yes but I do most of my posts on a prehistoric smart phone and it's keyboard is far too small for my sausage fingers and eyes lol. I will try better promise ..
Post #14 made 8 years ago
. Good on you Hoover 
,To change your topic title, click on your first post in the thread and then click on 'Edit'. Then change what is written in the "Subject" field.
...
We seem to be getting on track here now. The first questions to be answered are:
"What did you do on your first brew?" (What process, what equipment, where did the ingredients come from, how old was the equipment, did you keg or bottle, what is your cleaning/sanitisation schedule, how many mash thermometers have you got, etc, etc)
Until we can try and find out what went wrong with the first brew, I wouldn't be embarking on a second one just yet.
So, unfortunately, for now, it is lots and lots of you writing details (which means it might take you an hour or two to do your next post here). It's the best way to go though as I could pretty much guarantee what went wrong on the first brew will go wrong on the second.
PP
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Post #15 made 8 years ago
My last attempt was ten years ago lol and with extract, no boil Hambilton bard kit. Bucket 7 days, racked into barrel and primed. This time around all new kit, hence inquiring about what holes if any in stock pot. A lot of my friends use the biab but with a mash tun and sparge then all on stock pot to boil. I'm going to a local brewer to watch the process he uses.
Post #16 made 8 years ago
Your friends are brewing with a bag and not really doing BIAB.
True BIAB is full volume mashing without a sparge and in a single vessel.
My advice to you would be to watch your buddy to get an idea of what is involved. Figure out what size of pot you are going to want and then get back to do a couple of extract kits.
Once you can produce a good beer with the kits we can get you into all grain. The kits will help you get your process down and help us later on troubleshooting any problems.
I really believe in your case starting at the basics will help you in the long run.
True BIAB is full volume mashing without a sparge and in a single vessel.
My advice to you would be to watch your buddy to get an idea of what is involved. Figure out what size of pot you are going to want and then get back to do a couple of extract kits.
Once you can produce a good beer with the kits we can get you into all grain. The kits will help you get your process down and help us later on troubleshooting any problems.
I really believe in your case starting at the basics will help you in the long run.
Some people are like slinkies. Not good for much, but bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.
Weehoosebrewing.ga
Weehoosebrewing.ga
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Post #17 made 8 years ago
Definitely agree with Lumpy on getting the basics right but disagree on extract kits.
I gave up brewing beer twice (and nearly three times) brewing extract kits. Every one of them I brewed had what is known as "extract twang" - a puckering twang you get at the back of your mouth which I'm really sensitive too. In saying that, two of the best beers I have ever had were tinned malt extract kit beers. Both were fermented in hot sheds. One was an IPA kit but came out tasting like a perfect lager.
To get the basics right, safely, I would recommend "fresh wort kits" if you can get your hands on them. This is "proper" wort. All you have to do is add a bit of top-up water, get the wort down to the correct temperature, pitch your yeast and maintain the temp.
Things have improved a lot in ten years. Edit your profile (and change your topic title - see my last post on how) with your location. That way someone will be able to tell you where to buy a fresh wort kit. They are double the price of "extract kits" but simple and you won't get any of the problems common in extract beers. There are many variables in extract beers (shelf-life for one) that can really result in crappy beer no matter what you do.
I gave up brewing beer twice (and nearly three times) brewing extract kits. Every one of them I brewed had what is known as "extract twang" - a puckering twang you get at the back of your mouth which I'm really sensitive too. In saying that, two of the best beers I have ever had were tinned malt extract kit beers. Both were fermented in hot sheds. One was an IPA kit but came out tasting like a perfect lager.
To get the basics right, safely, I would recommend "fresh wort kits" if you can get your hands on them. This is "proper" wort. All you have to do is add a bit of top-up water, get the wort down to the correct temperature, pitch your yeast and maintain the temp.
Things have improved a lot in ten years. Edit your profile (and change your topic title - see my last post on how) with your location. That way someone will be able to tell you where to buy a fresh wort kit. They are double the price of "extract kits" but simple and you won't get any of the problems common in extract beers. There are many variables in extract beers (shelf-life for one) that can really result in crappy beer no matter what you do.
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Post #18 made 8 years ago
Well the dirty deed is done. 25 litre stock pot from empire supplies online, induction hob caso 2010 2kw ebay £10 this has an 11 inch heating area and temp input. Ballvalve 3 piece and a hop bazzoka. Bag is still to be brought and so is temp guage and hydrometer oh and starsan. Hoping for 3 gallon brews but 2.5 will be ok.
Thanks to all for the advice. Will put photos up when ive got all my gear and the wet run is done.
Thanks to all for the advice. Will put photos up when ive got all my gear and the wet run is done.
