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Need to confirm kettle volume in BIABacus

Post #1 made 10 years ago
by Streamer
Hello folks, I've got a 15.5 gallon keg as a brew vessel. I've attached a photo of it. In a previous post, Mad Scientist suggested inputting the keg diameter as 39.2 cm, the height as 42.4 cm, and in the area for adjustments (x) 4.3 liters for the shape of the keg - is this the brew vessel shape you were referring to? I've pegged the dimensions into the BIABacus and looked at the output and think I understand the logic. I just want to confirm that this gets me started in the right direction on what appears to be a fundamental variable - brew vessel size, shape and volume. Am i interpreting this correctly? Thanks to all
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Post #2 made 10 years ago
by ShorePoints
You are on the right track. The volume of your kettle is fundamental in determining the resulting batch size and the BIABacus gives you additional flexibility in terms of adding more water in Section W. In your case, the kettle shown will provide you the capacity to comfortably make 23L VIF provided that your OG target is not way out there. The important part of kettle volume is just to know what it is, You can mark it (or measure / record the headspace down from the top edge to liquid surface) as you add water to it one unit (you choose L or gal) at a time. The dimensions you enter into the kettle dimension fields should give you the volume that you can fit in it. As to the exact numbers you enter for height and diameter, the genius of the BIABacus includes more than just the resulting volume calculation, so enter numbers that are close to (but maybe not exactly) the dimensions of your kettle and match the actual capacity you measured with the adjustment for shape. The volume is important at this stage, the relationship of diameter and height do play a role, and your actual boil-off rate experiences will let you know if you need to tweak things. There may well be even more to it, but that will get you brewing.
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Post #4 made 10 years ago
by Streamer
Thank you ShorePoints. I'll take those measurements this afternoon and keep puzzling through this. I understand (I think) that Headspace would be the distance from the top of the water to the opening at the top of the keg, and that that number varies with the amount of liquid in the keg, and that that number would be important, but I don't really see where to place these numbers. U-Height or V-Headspace, are both single numbers on the BIABacus. When I enter a number in one or both U and V, it generates a quantity, but I don't see where that changes any other number on the rest of the spreadsheet. I see the kettle shape volume adjustment in X as MS mentioned, but where the heck do you come up with a number for that?
I think before I waste anyone's time on this I'd better get some accurate measurements and play with the spreadsheet.
I'll be back
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Post #5 made 10 years ago
by joshua
Streamer. Once you Know the Exact Volume of the Keg, Divide the Volume, by the measured Height.

Then divide the remainder by 3.14159, then Take the Square Root, and then Multiply by 2.

This will leave the AVERAGE diameter of the Keg.

Your Headspace Numbers will be Off from the Volume, but as Shorepoints said, Mark the Keg or Make a Dipstick to measure the Depth/Liter.

An Aluminum Bar is easy to File depth Grooves into. Wood will also works Well, but will darken with every Brew.

JMHO, YMMV.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #6 made 10 years ago
by Streamer
joshua wrote:Streamer. Once you Know the Exact Volume of the Keg, Divide the Volume, by the measured Height.

Then divide the remainder by 3.14159, then Take the Square Root, and then Multiply by 2.

This will leave the AVERAGE diameter of the Keg.

Your Headspace Numbers will be Off from the Volume, but as Shorepoints said, Mark the Keg or Make a Dipstick to measure the Depth/Liter.

An Aluminum Bar is easy to File depth Grooves into. Wood will also works Well, but will darken with every Brew.

JMHO, YMMV.
Thank you for that feedback. I'm going to start this afternoon determining head height, then I'll determine total volume and then, based on your formula, the average diameter. Great idea on the aluminum bar - I'll pick one up before starting the measuring.
Last edited by Streamer on 19 Nov 2015, 03:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #7 made 10 years ago
by Streamer
Joshua, I'm looking at your formula and I can't make sense of it. If I assume that the volume of the keg is 15.5 gallons and the height is 21" (measured interior height)then there is no remainder since the division ends up with a fraction. If I convert to metric then I have 58.674 liters/53.34cm, so the remainder is 1. Running the formula I end up with an average diameter of 1.12838 what?
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Post #8 made 10 years ago
by joshua
I forgot to say there are 231 cu-in per gallon.

So 15.5 Gallons time 231 cu-in/gal equals 3580.5 cu-in.

3580.5 cu-in divide by 21" equals 170.5 sq-in.

170.5 divide by 3.14159(Pi) equals 54.27 Sq-in (RADIUS^2)

Taking the Square root of 54.25 equals a 'radius' of 7.36", or a diameter of 14.733" or 14.75" to round off.

I hope the Top diameter and the Bottom Diameter is Smaller than 14.75
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #9 made 10 years ago
by Streamer
Ah! Well that makes more sense. Thanks again for the help. I'm pretty sure the base and top are under 14.5". Going to measure and fill now. I'll report my results in case anyone else has a keg like this.
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Post #10 made 10 years ago
by Streamer
Just did a fill and measure on the keg. I decided to do this in US Standard measurements because we've been unable to adapt to a more logical system, or we're number 1, I forget which. Anyway, I started with a tape measure and a calibrated container and started with adding in quart increments until the water just covered the raised center portion of the keg. Then I went in full gallon increments until I reached 3 gallons, figuring that I wouldn't make a batch less than 3 gallons. From there I measured in 1/2 gallon increments, always from the same place on the bottom of the keg. At 9-1/2 gallons, tragedy struck! I had my measuring container on a table in the garage and I would fill it from a 5 gallon bucket. At this point I had a Sierra Nevada APA about 1/2 consumed sitting next to the measuring container (foolish, I know), and as I was filling the container, some water sloshed over into the Sierra Nevada!!! Fortunately, I knew where a replacement could be found, and after procuring same, was able to continue only slightly shaken.
Anyway, I'm going to play with the BIABacus and these results. I'm sure I'll have more questions. I would appreciate your thoughts and comments.
Attached is the spreadsheet which shows the results.
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Post #11 made 10 years ago
by Streamer
OK, quick follow on. I plugged in my results to BIABacus and changed the "keg shape volume adjustment" in X to 0, and the spreadsheet calculated a total potential volume of the keg at 15.23Gal. Measured actual is 15.25. I'm pumped
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Post #12 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
Good stuff Streamer ;)

Btw, for anyone reading the appropriate info post which even took me a while to find is here). Can't wait until the site is upgraded or starts afresh :champ:.

Streamer, the link above shows that you are in a rare situation as your kettle is not straight-sided. There are two points to make here...

1. With such a kettle, you need to be aware of your dead-space (see the link).
2. With such a kettle, you'll need to rely on a dipstick and/or measuring your liquor via a jug into the kettle and by volume into the fermentor.

There is another point which applies to all brewers...

3. Your final volumes (end of boil, into fermentor, into packaging) will always vary for many reasons so do not 'chase' final numbers. Set things up (as the BIABacus does) so that you will normally have to dilute a bit at then end of each brew.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 19 Nov 2015, 20:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #13 made 10 years ago
by Streamer
PistolPatch wrote:Good stuff Streamer ;)

Btw, for anyone reading the appropriate info post which even took me a while to find is here). Can't wait until the site is upgraded or starts afresh :champ:.

Streamer, the link above shows that you are in a rare situation as your kettle is not straight-sided. There are two points to make here...

1. With such a kettle, you need to be aware of your dead-space (see the link).
2. With such a kettle, you'll need to rely on a dipstick and/or measuring your liquor via a jug into the kettle and by volume into the fermentor.

There is another point which applies to all brewers...

3. Your final volumes (end of boil, into fermentor, into packaging) will always vary for many reasons so do not 'chase' final numbers. Set things up (as the BIABacus does) so that you will normally have to dilute a bit at then end of each brew.

:peace:
PP
Thanks for your feedback. I had found that post previously but didn't interpret it correctly so set it aside for further pondering. I now know more - it looks like I won't be using the Adjustment and Tools section. I plan to make a graded aluminum scale (dipstick) specifically for my kettle, and since I have the spreadsheet I made I can replicate it if i ever need to. I'll also use something similar once I get my fermentation vessel set up.
Am I correct in assuming that the dead space issue is really only of concern were I to be using the Adjustments and Tools output to measure liquid volumes rather than the dipstick?
Final question (for now), regarding #3 above, how do you know how much to dilute? I assume the OG at pitching is the target, correct? I've searched a bit but haven't found much on this, do you have a link to a discussion that talks about how to calculate this, or is it a straight ratio based on target OG vs actual OG, and then diluting by that percentage based on desired VIF? Or am I way off
Last edited by Streamer on 20 Nov 2015, 01:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #14 made 10 years ago
by joshua
Streamer, You can use a dip stick, or Measure the Headspace to determine the Volume left, while Boiling.

When you get Good Experience you can determine the TIME it takes to Boil off 'X' gallon/Quarts Liters.

Which is Important if you are Timing you Hop Additions.

This will tell you of Ability of the Heat Source, and the Evaporation of your Kettle.

PP is correct, if you Brew Outside. The Ambient Temperature will Always remove heat (not the temperature) from the Boil, and will change the time to Boil off the Wort for you desired OG, from batch to batch.

If you can Measure the Gravity of the Boil (with a refractormeter), you can stop the Boil, if the Hop Times are near the End of Boil Time, and pretty much Nail the OG, and the Bitterness you want.

JMHO, YMMV.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #15 made 10 years ago
by Mad_Scientist
Once you complete section L and M, have a play in section N (pre pitching), and section O (pitching) will populate to the new volume and OG.

Sent from my XT1053 using Tapatalk
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Post #16 made 10 years ago
by Streamer
I'm going to do a boil off tomorrow with just water to determine my "Change evaporation rate" in area X of the Biabacus. I know this not a precise figure, but given the shape of my kettle, I think it will be a good place to start. My plan is to fill the kettle with 5 gallons of tap water (there's that damned US thing again!), bring it to a boil and let it run for an hour. then I'll measure the amount left and determine the amount boiled off.

Any suggestions? Should I use 8 gallons instead, since this is closer to the amount of water I would initially need for a 5 gallon VIF figure? Does it really matter at this point?
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Post #17 made 10 years ago
by joshua
It takes time to get to the Boil temperature, and 8 gallons will Take longer than 5 gallons.

It would be better to Boil off 2 gallons x 3 times, than 8 gallons once.

Then you would have a good Average.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #19 made 10 years ago
by joshua
Yes, that will give you an average, since depending on where you live, the temperature, Humidity, and Barometric pressure, will vary you Boil off Rate.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #20 made 10 years ago
by PistolPatch
Streamer wrote:I'm going to do a boil off tomorrow with just water to determine my "Change evaporation rate" in area X of the Biabacus. I know this not a precise figure, but given the shape of my kettle, I think it will be a good place to start. My plan is to fill the kettle with 5 gallons of tap water (there's that damned US thing again!), bring it to a boil and let it run for an hour. then I'll measure the amount left and determine the amount boiled off.

Any suggestions? Should I use 8 gallons instead, since this is closer to the amount of water I would initially need for a 5 gallon VIF figure? Does it really matter at this point?
Sorry, I didn't respond faster and I hope you haven't done the test yet as it will just be a waste of electricity and/or gas.

We've set the BIABacus up so as, hopefully, the defaults will force you into a confident post-boil adjustment. Whoever replies to this thread next should understand fully what a "confident post-boil adjustment," means. (If you don't, then PM me.)

There is no way that doing any pre-brew tests will serve you as conditions change from day to day. We have already done the hard work for you even with kettles like yours.

Apologies Streamer that we aren't steering you in the right direction faster than we are atm.

:dunno:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 04 Dec 2015, 21:30, edited 1 time in total.
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