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Secondary fermantation/clearing

Post #1 made 15 years ago
by BobtheBrewer
I am new to BIAB, done 3, and I am having a bit of difficulty with some of the termination. I see that a recipe calls for 7 days primary, 7 days secondary and then cold conditioning. I would assume that after 7 days in primary that the ferment would be finished/all but finished. If this is the case, and you then decant off into a secondary fermenter, how do you avoid infection because the secondary fermenter is not full ie. has some air above the wort and there is no CO2 being produced to displace it? If there is still some yeast working I can see that you would put an airlock or gladwrap over the secondary vessel. In a perfect situation I figure that the secondary vessel is used for clearing and then the temperature is dropped for the cold conditioning. I'm still worried about the air above the wort in the secondary fermenter.

Post #2 made 15 years ago
by BobBrews
Bob,
The current thinking is NOT to use a secondary unless you are adding some specialty adjunct (fruit -spices ?). Leaving your primary alone for two or three weeks will not hurt it. As many people say the extra time improves the taste as say it makes no difference. I will add dry hops to the primary after the active fermentation (2 weeks?) and keg a week later. The secondary has it's uses but the old maxim of using a secondary each time is passe'
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Post #3 made 15 years ago
by BrickBrewHaus
+1 to everything BobBrews has said. I will also add that a secondary is still used for extended aging of very big beers, but based on the recipe your giving, I would guess this isn't a big beer.
BobtheBrewer wrote:If this is the case, and you then decant off into a secondary fermenter, how do you avoid infection because the secondary fermenter is not full ie. has some air above the wort and there is no CO2 being produced to displace it?
I think you're talking about oxidation, rather than infection, of your beer and from what I've read that can be a problem. A preferred method is to purge the air out of the secondary with some CO2. Since CO2 is heavier than oxygen, the oxygen will be pushed out the top, leaving you with mostly CO2 which is harmless to your beer. For those of us who don't keg and don't have spare CO2 just hangin around the house, Beachbum had a nice post in this thread:
Before I kegged, I used to put a very small amount of sugar or dex into the secondary cube or fermenter and allow to sit for 24 hours with the lid open just a crack, to generate a little bit of gas, enough to flush the headspace, then screw down tight.
And there is always the threat of an infection any time you're exposing your beer to different equipment. I think that's a big reason for skipping secondary: unnecessary risk of infection for a process that isn't all that beneficial (in the case of average gravity beers that don't have fruit, spices, etc. added).
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 08 Dec 2010, 22:46, edited 5 times in total.

Post #4 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
Good question Bob and very nice answers BobBrewa and BrickBrewhaus.

A few gold medal lager winners I know here never even dream of a secondary fermenter.

There is a lot of advice of course to the contrary, much of it standard advice, but as BBH said, every time you transfer your wort/beer you add high risk.

Bob, you asked about decanting to another vessel without risk of oxidation. This can be done easily if you have the right equipment/fittings. Explaining this needs pics rather than words. I'll see if I can dig some pics up tomorrow.
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Post #5 made 15 years ago
by BobtheBrewer
Thanks to BobBrews, BrickBrewHaus (now there's a moniker) and PP. In the old days of K&K (About a month ago) I often used to leave a brew in the fermenter for 4 - 6 weeks, figured that if all was airtight it was OK. Never had a problem. The reason for my question was that my recipe called for a dry hop after 7 days. I tossed up doing Beachbum's idea of putting it into a willow cube, both because it wouldn't take up much room and because I have two of them, both of which have crumpled when filled with hot wort.

Post #6 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hi there Bob,

Have had a free night tonight and see that there is a possibility we haven't answered your original question very well. That's the problem with forums, especially beer ones, we sometimes read too quickly, latch onto a favourite keyword/subject and then write an answer that fulfils us rather than the person asking the question.

When I say, "we," above, I really mean BobBrews and BBH. I, of course, never do this!!! :lol:.

Joking aside, I do think we all missed something...
BobtheBrewer wrote:I am new to BIAB... I see that a recipe calls for 7 days primary, 7 days secondary and then cold conditioning. I would assume that after 7 days in primary that the ferment would be finished/all but finished...
What I think we missed is that your reading so far tells you that fermentation (of an ale, not a lager) is finished in 7 days. This can be right but is not right...

You can 'rush' a beer and drink it a week after you pitch the yeast (ales only) assuming you have kegs. It is doable, I have done it (quite well with "Black Beer") but it is not good practice. Fermenting the right recipe with a clean yeast at high temps can give you a very good beer but this is an extreme.

As a general rule, a well-brewed ale DOES NOT ferment fully in 7 days.

So, let's now look at what the 7 day primary and 7 day secondary thing you mentioned really means...

Firstly, the above is talking about ales, not lagers. For lagers, you can double that rule.

The 7 day plus 7 rule for ales is really a homebrewers practical "easy to use" interpretation of how to adopt commercial practices. The total of 14 is probably a good general rule - I'm happy with that. The 7 + 7 is perhaps not.

Many commercial breweries will drop their beer from a primary fermenter into a secondary fermenter about 2/3rds of the way through fermentation (if my memory serves me correctly.) Doing this has the advantage of getting rid of sometimes literally, tons of trub as well as rousing/re-activating the yeast. The dropping from primary to secondary may average at 7 days but varies a lot depending on the beer.

Commercial breweries have a lot more equipment problems and trub problems to deal with than we do. They can also transfer beer without risking oxidation or contamination. We have a lot less trub and equipment problems but usually don't have the closed transfer ability.

So, let's stop and think now...

1. A "general ale" will take two 'weeks' to ferment fully. The first 'week' will be very active and the second 'week' will be more subtle.

2. If I am a commercial brewer, I often need the yeast from the primary fermenter to start my next batch. I want to get rid of that trub and gain the yeast asap. The beer I transfer into my secondary or 'bright' fermenter often needs different controls (or mucking around with) to get it right.) Having it in the secondary gives me more time/accuracy to get it right.

3. If I am a home brewer, I have none of the above pressure/constraints on me and I also risk infection every time I transfer.

The above, Bob, is a bit of a ramble I know. I have the hiccoughs now and so am finding it hard to type but I hope the above is some food for thought and makes you feel a bit freer with your brewing.

:)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Dec 2010, 23:31, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #7 made 15 years ago
by BobtheBrewer
PistolPatch wrote:Hi there Bob,

1. A "general ale" will take two 'weeks' to ferment fully. The first 'week' will be very active and the second 'week' will be more subtle.

2. If I am a commercial brewer, I often need the yeast from the primary fermenter to start my next batch. I want to get rid of that trub and gain the yeast asap. The beer I transfer into my secondary or 'bright' fermenter often needs different controls (or mucking around with) to get it right.) Having it in the secondary gives me more time/accuracy to get it right.

3. If I am a home brewer, I have none of the above pressure/constraints on me and I also risk infection every time I transfer.

The above, Bob, is a bit of a ramble I know. I have the hiccoughs now and so am finding it hard to type but I hope the above is some food for thought and makes you feel a bit freer with your brewing.

:)
PP

Thanks PP. My main concern was whether enough CO2 would be produced after 7 days to prevent the wort being affected by oxidisation/infection. Now that my mind has been put at rest about that, what about pouring your wort into another vessel after 14 days to cold condition. Basically I still have the same concern ie. if you don't completely fill the new container will there be a chance of contamination (be it by oxidisation or infection) or is the wort, which by this time is fully feremented, immune to infection?
Last edited by BobtheBrewer on 14 Dec 2010, 16:44, edited 5 times in total.

Post #8 made 15 years ago
by BobtheBrewer
[quote="sigurdur"]Bob, why do you want to move your beer into another vessel?

If the reason is because all the big breweries do it (or it "says so" in an old brewing book), then it is, IMO, pointless since homebrewers don't have to deal with the same problems as big breweries.
If the reason is because you want to try it for the sake of trying things, then by all means go for it. Just remember that you risk contamination and oxidation.
If the reason is that you want to harvest the yeast, then go for it. Just remember to take extra precaution because of the contamination and oxidation risk.
If the reason is that you want to put fruit or other additives to the beer, then in my opinion skip it and just add it to the primary fermentor.
If the reason is that you want to age the beer for many months, then do it. It would probably be best for you to buy a CO2 cylinder and flood the secondary vessel with it before you transfer.

sigurdur,

The answer to your question is "none of the above". I want my fermenter back to put down another brew. Actually your last reason is the closest. Since changing from K&K, where two weeks in the fermenter was probably because I had got lazy, now I want to give my brews the time they need to be good. I am making K&Ks to fill in (and drinking bottles, aged from 6 months to about 18 months) so that I can get some AG brews into the system. Unfortunately, my consumption rate is greater than my production rate. I have 6 kegs, 3 fermenters, 2 square cubes that could stand in as fermenters if necessary, and 2 Willow cubes which I hesitate to cold chill in as they have both crumpled a bit with hot wort in them. My initial question was aimed at dropping a brew from a fermenter, after 7 - 14 days, into a Willow cube that I could keep in my temp controlled freezer with the next brew, without the risk of oxidisation or infection. That is what I'm looking at doing, just haven't worked out how to flood the thing with CO2. I hope this all makes sense to you, and thanks for your help.

Post #9 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
Oh no Bob! I only just realised you actually do have CO2 and kegs!!! I better do a major edit of this post... Sorry if it doesn't flow too well.

You will actually find that wort will continue to produce CO2 for quite some time albeit in smaller volume even after we 'say,' fermentation is 'complete'. In reality, fermentation continues for quite a long time albeit very slowly.

If you transfer a typical ale from primary to a cube after let's say two weeks, you'll notice that even another two weeks later, you'll still be able to release pressure from the cube. Put it in a fridge and you will still find it is likely to produce a bit of pressure.

If you do gentle transfers, you are unlikely to get problems. You should feel confident in doing this.

Bob, you have a CO2 bottle so avoiding oxidation is very easy for you. Filling the recipient vessell with CO2 solves all problems as sigurdur mentioned. You can even go further than this and do closed transfers of wort. In other words, as the primary is draining, you can have CO2 returning to it by simply attaching a tube to the top of both transfer vessells.

One fitting I really think is worth trying to find and buy is the one pictured here. These airlocks are brilliant for any brewer and make closed transfers a breeze ;).

A brewer without a CO2 bottle should relax and not worry about possible oxidation. Just transferring wort to the cube sometime between 3 to 7 days after high krausen on an ale is fine. A "blanket" of CO2 will immediately form over the wort. Unscrew the lid slightly on the cube every day for the first few days to release excess pressure until you get a feel for what's going on inside the cube. Better still, drill a hole in the cube lid so that it fits one of those airlocks I linked above ;).

If you have kegs and enough fridge space, once the cube has slowed right down (remember we are not trying to wait until absolutely no CO2 is being produced) put the cube in the fridge and let it settle for say 4 days if possible. This will help with clarity but isn't necessary if you don't have the fridge space. It will brighten in the keg quite quickly.

Also, to help with a gentle transfer, try and find a hose that will fit nicely inside your fermenter tap / spigot rather than over it.

Most beers are a lot more robust than we give them credit for so along the lines of Nike...

Just brew it!
:peace: PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 15 Dec 2010, 19:57, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #10 made 15 years ago
by BobtheBrewer
PistolPatch wrote:Bob, you have a CO2 bottle so avoiding oxidation is very easy for you. Filling the recipient vessell with CO2 solves all problems as sigurdur mentioned. You can even go further than this and do closed transfers of wort. In other words, as the primary is draining, you can have CO2 returning to it by simply attaching a tube to the top of both transfer vessells.

Also, to help with a gentle transfer, try and find a hose that will fit nicely inside your fermenter tap / spigot rather than over it.
I've been thinking for some time about flooding a cube with CO2 before transferring. Being an old fart, all my good ideas probably surfaced years ago, before I got into this position. If I drop the gas in disconnect into the cube, how am I going to trigger iot so that the CO2 flows? Also, I confess that you have lost me re the closed transfers. I do transfer as you suggest, an old bottle filler minus the bottom bit, with a tube attached which reaches the bottom of whatever I am filing.
Bob
Last edited by BobtheBrewer on 16 Dec 2010, 18:40, edited 5 times in total.

Post #11 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
LOL Bob :),

Okay, a closed transfer is a transfer from one vessel to another that avoids oxygenation. There are of course many different vessels we need to transfer from or to. Describing each one would require more writing than I am even capable of :o so I'll describe here how to do a closed transfer from a fermenter to a keg.

Firstly you need to fill the recipient vessel with CO2. To make it easy requires something like this one way valve being installed after your regulator. This way, you can easily unhook your gas supply from your kegs without them losing pressure. You can then just give your recipient vessell a spray of CO2 (remember it sinks) to get rid of the air in the vessel. Just turn the regulator on a tad for a few seconds.

I actually use John Guest fittings for everything in my kegging set-up. They make life very easy.

To do the closed transfer you need to sit your ferementer above your keg. You then need to join the fermenter to the keg in two ways...

1. Run a gas line from the gas post of your keg to one of the holes in the "clever" airlock you hopefully now own :).

2. Run a beer line from the liquid post of your keg to your fermenter tap/spigot.***

Open the fermenter tap and beer will flow from the fermenter into the keg. The CO2 you have put in the keg will be pushed up into the fermenter. In an open transfer, air would be sucked in instead. The liquid of course enters the beer via the keg dip tube which is right at the bottom of the keg. So, even if there is oxygen in the system somewhere, there will always be a cushion of CO2 above your beer.

Pictures of course would be easier to follow and I have some somewhere!!! If I find them I will post them.

Those airlocks though can be used in many ways. For example, if you were transferring to a cube without a tap, you can actually add a bit of beer line to the underside of the airlock creating a "virtual" dip tube meaning the wort flowing into the keg will trickle into the bottom of the cube rather than spilling in from the top.

As I said before though, a closed transfer is not necessary. It's actually a PITA if you don't have the right fittings...

***For example, a normal fermenter tap will not accept beer line. Making one that does is easy enough but maintaining/cleaning the buggers is not much fun as the fermenter tap now has a lot more "parts."

I now no longer do closed transfers, I just do as gentle ones as I can without it becoming a PITA. I do give the recipient keg a blast of CO2 first though. So, maybe just buy one of those John Guest check-valves.

I also used to filter which I now never do. Once again, a filter requires more parts and cleaning. Most beers should become quite bright, quite quickly if you transfer gently. If they don't, there is probably a brewing technique or chemistry problem involved.

I write way too much :roll:. Hope you haven't fallen asleep Bob :sleep:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 16 Dec 2010, 19:55, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #12 made 15 years ago
by BobtheBrewer
PP,
I'll have to think about what you have written, probably tomorrow before I have a beer. What I was getting at was how to flood say, a cube, with CO2 so that I can drop the beer from my fermenter into it. I need the fermenter. How about if I put the "gas in" disconnect into the mouth of the cube and rigged up some gizmo to release the gas? It probably wouldn't be easy, but as they say, necessity is the mother of invention. I really want to put this brew into a willow cube and leave it in the freezer while I ferment my Kolsch.
Bob

Post #13 made 15 years ago
by PistolPatch
This sort of info is often hard to convey/resolve over forums especially when the person conveying the information (me) is too lazy to find and post pics. You're in Australia so talk between us is cheap :lol:. I've just sent you a PM - let's talk on this over the phone I reckon. Chat to you then Bob ;).
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Post #14 made 15 years ago
by Bazzab
BobtheBrewer wrote:PP,
I'll have to think about what you have written, probably tomorrow before I have a beer. What I was getting at was how to flood say, a cube, with CO2 so that I can drop the beer from my fermenter into it. I need the fermenter. How about if I put the "gas in" disconnect into the mouth of the cube and rigged up some gizmo to release the gas? It probably wouldn't be easy, but as they say, necessity is the mother of invention. I really want to put this brew into a willow cube and leave it in the freezer while I ferment my Kolsch.
Bob

Hi Bob,

I 'no chill' in a keg and transfer the hot wort into the keg after flooding with CO2 and then burp with CO2 also.

On my gas line I have a JG joiner so I can change connectors on the end and also go thru the wall of my fridge (temp controlled freezer) and not store the CO2 bottle in the fridge.

I have a liquid out disconnect on a short bit of gas line and connect it up to the JG connector when I force carbonate.

To purge the O2 out of the secondary carboy I just use the open end of the gas line.

Hope this makes sense and is of use.
Last edited by Bazzab on 17 Dec 2010, 10:31, edited 5 times in total.
Cheers for now

Bazza B

Post #16 made 15 years ago
by Bazzab
Hi all,
Apologies if I did not explain fully.

The keg is only used to chill the wort. The wort is then transferred into the fermenter to ferment.

When secondary fermenting I purge the carboy with CO2 before transferring into it from the fermenter.
Cheers for now

Bazza B

Post #17 made 15 years ago
by Yeasty
Bob

Just read through this thread and I think I can see what your getting at :?

Basically you want to transfer out of your FV to free it up for another brew and you are wondering what are the pro's and con's.

well:

Pro's: You free up your FV.
Con's: Slight risk of infection/oxidation.

The Con's are all manageable risks which with care can be reduced to almost zero. I've been doing this for ages when I need to free up the FV for another brew. I transfer into a 5 gallon wine fermenter fitted with an air lock and have left it like this for 2 weeks before bottling/kegging, Its especially usefull if you have a slow fermenting brew thats reluctant to drop those extra few points.
I make sure its well sterilised and rinsed then syphon the wort direct to the bottom to reduce splashing. I've never botherd with Co2 purging although I can see the benifits and whilst thinking about this thread realised that the lids for the wine fermenter and my kegs are the same so I could use one of those fitted loosly to inject co2.

As to the topic of the "secondary fermenting vessel" years ago back in the 80's it was thought of as the done thing to rest your brew in another vessel under airlock. Why I don't really know apart from allowing more yeast to drop before bottling.
I suppose its a bit like all those people mashing with 3 vessel set ups today. ;)
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