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Trouble Scaling Greg Hughes "Home Brew Beer" Recipe

Post #1 made 9 years ago
by edzki
I've got about a dozen all grain biab brews under my belt and have made some tasty beers along the way.

Although I'm not too fussed about precise measurements I have found the biabacus to be a great tool to help understand the process as well as keep a brewday on the straight and narrow. Thanks to everyone involved in producing such an amazing brewing tool. :thumbs:

I received the Greg Hughes book recently and thoroughly enjoyed it, especially the recipe part. Its here that the problems start... I have read a couple of threads on this forum and in particular the work of Rick in this post HTTP://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... hes#p42371 who came to the magic formula of 22.2L in Section D original VAW.

Using that advice I set about scaling the Black IPA recipe. I can type the whole recipe if required but I don't want to get anyone in any trouble. My problem occurs with the bittering hop addition, it calls for Apollo (19.5%AA) 30g at the start of the 70 minute boil but only allocates 44.0 IBUs to this addition. My biabacus file calculates such an addition to produce 66.6 IBUs.

The 10 minute Citra (13.8%) addition of 30g indicates a 16 IBU contribution, this is replicated in my biabacus file almost exactly.

With such a strong first addition hop would you say the original recipe is wrong in trying to achieve an overall IBU of 60? When playing with the time of the first addition I would need to add it with around 24 minutes to go to produce the right IBU, is that the best way to use biabacus? I, of course, would like to mash and boil for 90 minutes.

Any help would be gratefully received.

Ed
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Last edited by edzki on 12 Mar 2015, 22:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #2 made 9 years ago
by joshua
Edzki,

First of all, 70 minutes with 1.054 SG indicates about 23% utilization and using the Tinseth's equation indicates 73.18IBU.

I do agree the 30Gram is 19.4% hops for 70min. FWH will give you a massive amount of Bitterness.

If you drop the Apollo Hops from 30gram to 10 gram the Calculated Total IBU is exactly the 38.8 IBU called for in the Recipe Overview.

and

If you drop the Apollo Hops from 30gram to 20 gram the Calculated Total IBU is comes out to be 61 IBU


I hope this Helps more than Confuses.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.
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Post #3 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
joshua wrote:I hope this Helps more than Confuses.
I'm confused Josh :). My answer is below. Betrween the two of us, one of them should work for you Ed ;). (Rick is busy moving house atm so we probably won't hear from him in this thread.).

Firstly, the BIABacus calculations are correct Tinseth calculations. Many programs get this wrong for starters. It gets even worse though Ed...
What you are seeing here is the very stupid problem that there are many ways of measuring/or estimating IBU's. We have laboratory measurements and perceived taste measurements. On the estimate formulas, three common ones are Garetz, Rager and Tinseth. The result of all these five things are invariably, very stupidly published as 'IBU's' instead of 'IBU's as measured/estimated by ...'
On your recipe, here is a pic of how wildly the three estimate formulas vary. The first green arrow points to the Garetz estimate. [EDIT: This pic replaces my original pic which was incorrect. More in the P.S. of my next post.] The second green arrow points to the Tinseth estimate and the one in between is the Rager estimation formula as calculated in BeerSmith (which incorrectly bases its calcs on pre-boil gravity instead of gravity at flame-out.)...
Greg Hughes Test.jpg
Here is another pic which shows how wide/ridiculous the divergence is between the three formulas. The BIABacus only uses the Tinseth formula as this is the most accurate for all-grain recipes...
Randy Mosher IBU Examples.jpg
The above is one reason why...

This site has spent so much time on creating Clear Brewing Terminology and the BIABacus. There is just so much terminology out there that is ambiguous/meaningless and this has lead to an array of software etc that exacerbates this already massive terminology problem.

So, just follow Rick's advice. Type the original hop ingredients on the left of Section D, make any changes to the AA% on the right hand side and then buy/use whatever weight is diplayed under 'What you will use...'

:peace:
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Mar 2015, 19:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #4 made 9 years ago
by Rick
^This!


Heyy, I'm here ... just lurking from time to time while being jealous of all your brewing. I have no beer right now, and it makes me sad.

Roughly 1 month until closing date, ugh ...

I just played around with the file a bit. If those grain totals are straight from the book ... it looks like the original recipe might also be based on 70%-ish kettle efficiency. Setting the default to 68.6% in section X matches the grain totals on both sides for section C. This seems pretty low for 1.054.

deleting said 68.6% and changing desired OG to 1.064 also helps match the grain totals, and to the predicted kettle efficiency from the BIABacus. Might want to check to make sure there's not a typo on the OG (probably not, considering the investigated IBU numbers would also change).

File looks good though! Mash volume is brimming though, but I assume you haven't finished processing this file yet ... so disregard if you had planned to do that.
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Post #5 made 9 years ago
by edzki
Thanks to all three of you for taking the time to look at this. :salute:

I've revisited the original recipe and the "legend" that helps decipher the terms in the book.

The OG is 1054 with an estimated FG of 1018. Total Liquor 33L

Makes 23L (the book calls this the final volume of beer to be produced) Rick found this was the VAW of 22.2L

As the 2nd hop addition translates perfectly from the recipe to the biabacus I'm pretty convinced the first hop addition is a typo and should read 20g Apollo, that makes sense.

When I finalise the file I'm governed by the Mash Volume. 39.5 out of 40L looks about right to me! :whistle:

Time to "get her brewed" :pray:

Thanks once again.

Ed
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Post #6 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
[NOTE: Please see the red edit I made to my prior post here and the PS below.]

Ed, I actually dealt with another Greg Hughes recipe here last week. It only just clicked now that it was the same author :idiot:. I've had a little too much on :).

In this post, (written a little impatiently :P) I wrote down all the problems with what we call the 'integrity' of the recipe. Read the first part of that post until the end of, "Where this Recipe Lacks Integrity" so as you have a good understanding of what we are dealing with here.

...

It is just as likely that the IBU's is a typo than the 30 grams. It is also just as likely that a dodgy software formula was used as there are plenty out there. This leaves...

Two Options

Best Option - Write to the author and ask, "What do you mean by 23 litres? If you mean Volume into Packaging or Volume into Fermentor, what were your kettle and fermentrer losses?" From that answer we can work out the Volume of Ambient Wort. Secondly ask, "What formula (Rager, Garetz or Tinseth) did you use to calculate the IBU's and what software?"

Alternatively - Ask an experienced IPA brewer like Rick to look at the ingredients and assess whether the recipe looks good to go.

My Opinion

Between this thread and the last one, I have spent a fair bit of time trying to make sense of Greg Hughe's recipes and it's not too often that I can't eventually find some sort of logic in the recipe. Therefore, I would love to find out where he is getting his numbers from.

Also, is it just me, or does anyone else see no balance of ingredients in this recipe?

:scratch:
PP

P.S. I found two errors in the pic in my last post. Note that Beersmith, incorrectly bases their IBU calculations on pre-boil gravity instead of Gravity at Flame-Out. Adjusting for BeerSmith's error, the 83 BIABacus Tinseth IBU's equalls Beersmtih's 93. Fun and games!
Last edited by PistolPatch on 15 Mar 2015, 14:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #7 made 9 years ago
by tingtong
PistolPatch wrote:Best Option - Write to the author and ask, "What do you mean by 23 litres? If you mean Volume into Packaging or Volume into Fermentor, what were your kettle and fermentrer losses?" From that answer we can work out the Volume of Ambient Wort. Secondly ask, "What formula (Rager, Garetz or Tinseth) did you use to calculate the IBU's and what software?"
Hi I hope this might be of some help I contacted Greg Hughes and this is what he replied with:-

Code: Select all

Hi Phil,

The 23 litres is finished beer. Boil length would be about 26 litres.

I use beer alchemy and happy to send you the profile settings if you wish?

Regards

Greg Hughes
Director

Brew UK Limited, Unit 9, Sarum Business Park, Lancaster Rd, Salisbury, SP4 6FB.


t:    01722 410705

e:    greg@brewuk.co.uk   
w:    brewUK.co.uk
    

Facebook:www.facebook.com/brewuk | Twitter: www.twitter.com/brewuk
I actually recieved a copy of this book yesterday and must admit some of the recipes look quite appealing only 3 quid on Amazon uk but shipped to New Zealand ended up about $23NZD looks like the author is quite easy to contact and discuss things though I have to admit to being out of my depth on the follow up questions to ask.
Fair play to Greg
Regards
TT
Last edited by tingtong on 26 Mar 2015, 21:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Great job TT :clap:,

I have Beer Alchemy on an old Apple laptop so if he can send you a recipe and a profile setting, then that would certainly be helpful. So try for that first.

If you asked the questions as I wrote them above and only received the 23 L and 26 L reply above, then it may be better to ask each question, one at a time on the Facebook page. (Did you ask all the above questions Phil? I'm guessing you did.)

If we assume that the 26 L 'boil length' means VAW (and I have no idea if it does), then that means only 3 L of kettle and fermentor trub if 'finished beer' means VIP. (I assume finished beer has to mean VIP?) Doable for sure but is definitely on the lean side especially on a heavy beer. And, we still need to know if Rager, Garetz or Tinseth was used.

Maybe get back to me on the above and after that, I'll see if I can narrow down how to word the questions to determine his VAW and whether Rager/Garetz/Tinseth was used.

Really appreciate you contacting him TT :salute:.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 27 Mar 2015, 17:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #10 made 9 years ago
by tingtong
PistolPatch wrote:If you asked the questions as I wrote them above
Yes
I have asked for recipe and profile settings and also if he could confirm what formula (Rager, Garetz or Tinseth) he used to calculate the IBU's
f00b4r wrote:It would be good to know the answers to these questions as Greg's book seems to be getting very popular at the moment, driven by Amazon's deep discount and positive reviews on the UK brewing forums
It's a very decent book well laid out and a very nice durable hardback cover bargain for that price at the moment.
Hopefully Greg doesn't get too cheesed off with the questions and replies after the weekend
Wow Ade Edmundson haven't seen him about for awhile !!!

TT
Last edited by tingtong on 29 Mar 2015, 13:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #11 made 9 years ago
by tingtong
Well I got a reply from Greg not sure if it will help but we tried.

Code: Select all

Hi Phil, sorry I don’t have them any more as it was ages ago and its on an old computer which has been retired.

You should be able to enter them in and work it out as the book contains most of the info you need.

Tinseth for IBU as far as I know.

Regards

Greg Hughes
Director

Brew UK Limited, Unit 9, Sarum Business Park, Lancaster Rd, Salisbury, SP4 6FB.


t:    01722 410705

e:    greg@brewuk.co.uk   
w:    brewUK.co.uk
    

Facebook:www.facebook.com/brewuk | Twitter: www.twitter.com/brewuk
Last edited by tingtong on 30 Mar 2015, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #12 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Bugger! Nice try though TT :peace:,

Anyone else here got BeerAlchemy?

...

If not, can you PM me a reminder in about a week TT and I'll spend the time on it ;).
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Post #13 made 9 years ago
by edzki
Hey TT,

Thanks for contacting the author, I've been flat out here with life conspiring to stop me brewing or paying much attention to this thread.

If Greg is saying the VIP is 23l this recipe seems way out, only by adding the "22.20L VAW" in section D (thanks to Rick's initial investigations) were any of the figures accurate (although the first hop addition was not).

In the initial file I added in post 1 the VAW is 24.42L which makes the VIP 20.37L.

I love the Biabacus because it's all there in front of you, no ambiguity, but I don't see a "magic bullet" formula to convert these recipes without completely ignoring the authors premise that you will end up with 23L VIP. It could be just a terminology misunderstanding.

I'll stick with the initial correction of 22.2L in VAW Section D as a starting point and fudge it from there, I'm sure the ale will be swillable...

Ed
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Post #14 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Okay, I dug my old Apple iBook G4 out with BeerAlchemy and it still had a lot of old faithful recipes like NRB's All Amarillo APA in it. I played around, for quite some time, as it has been a few years since I looked at that program and determined that....

1. Beer Alchemy (incorrectly) bases its Tinseth formula on the average gravity of the boil.

This alone creates a lot of problems but some advanced features of the BIABacus make investigating the aberrations of other programs which were formerly almost impossible, possible.

I have since spent way too much time on this and no matter what I do and how I juggle things to adjust for the known and unknown foibles of Beer Alchemy...

2. This recipe dopes not match in any way. I think the bittering addition is a typo or something.

I went to check all the above with the other thread I linked above but there is not enough hop info in that thread for me to check. I'd really need to see the full info on several recipes and it's actually wrong of me to do that, let alone this post, as I am meant to be the guy finishing the last of the BIABacus help.

Done my best on this one but it is one of the few threads that has got the better of me sorry.

:dunno:
PP
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