Hi all
Will finally be doing my 1st BIAB next weekend. My question is, although there's not a lot I can do about it. How much lower should I expect my extraction to be from std crushed grain rather than the fine grind that I've seen mentioned on here?
Cheers Tom
Post #2 made 15 years ago
i would say you should get at lest 70% priboil efficiency with std crushed grain as apposed to close to 80% with a finer crush.
Cube:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
fermenter: Sourdough Spelt Ale, Classic Lambic, Oud Brune, Barrel Aged Belgian Dubbel
Kegs: Bob's Black IPA, Blanc Blond, Soda...
to be brewed:
Post #3 made 15 years ago
Is that taking into account a good squeeze of the bag or not?
Cheers Tom
Cheers Tom
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Post #4 made 15 years ago
Hi soupdragon, I would only expect a couple of points loss to a 'normal' crush.
I double crush my grains because I have my own mill, most HBS will do this for you if you ask.
Giving the bag a good squeeze will help a little, I just let mine drain for ~20 mins. I can't be bothered squeezing.
Ramping up to a mashout will also help improve extract efficiency. Personally, I leave my bag in the kettle and just stir while the gas burner raises the temperature to 77c. I believe this is a better method than pulling the bag out, raising the liquor temperature and then putting the bag back in.
Just My opinion.
I double crush my grains because I have my own mill, most HBS will do this for you if you ask.
Giving the bag a good squeeze will help a little, I just let mine drain for ~20 mins. I can't be bothered squeezing.
Ramping up to a mashout will also help improve extract efficiency. Personally, I leave my bag in the kettle and just stir while the gas burner raises the temperature to 77c. I believe this is a better method than pulling the bag out, raising the liquor temperature and then putting the bag back in.
Just My opinion.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #5 made 15 years ago
I'll have read up on this mash out step. I've seen it mentioned quite frequently and if it's a quick and easy way of upping my extraction then it'll be worth a go 
Cheers Tom
Cheers Tom
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Post #6 made 15 years ago
Mashout is really simple Tom. Once your mash has finished, simply raise the temperature to 77c and rest for 20 minutes. This makes the sugary wort more viscous allowing the sugars to drain from the grain more easily, rather than some of them being trapped within the grain.
Hope that makes sense.
Hope that makes sense.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #7 made 15 years ago
Yep, that's clear enough, thanks 
What's the preferred method on here of filtration post boil? I'd like to reduce the ammount of break that I'm allowing into my fermenter. Would my voile bag be up to the job of taking the break out? At the moment I just tip from my boiler into the fermenter through a colander.........
Cheers Tom
What's the preferred method on here of filtration post boil? I'd like to reduce the ammount of break that I'm allowing into my fermenter. Would my voile bag be up to the job of taking the break out? At the moment I just tip from my boiler into the fermenter through a colander.........
Cheers Tom
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Post #8 made 15 years ago
Ralph likes to filter with hops in a colander, I have heard of others using their bag also. Horses for courses.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."
Post #9 made 15 years ago
The reason I ask stems from another post.......
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=468
I've been trying to eliminate a strange flavour I'm getting in all my extract/partial mash brews. All the kits I've done before these have turned out ok. I even did another kit between mash brews to make sure my equipment is still clean and sound. Needless to say, it turned out fine. My idea is to try and simplify my method as much as I can to help track down this flavour.........
Cheers Tom
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=468
I've been trying to eliminate a strange flavour I'm getting in all my extract/partial mash brews. All the kits I've done before these have turned out ok. I even did another kit between mash brews to make sure my equipment is still clean and sound. Needless to say, it turned out fine. My idea is to try and simplify my method as much as I can to help track down this flavour.........
Cheers Tom
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Post #10 made 15 years ago
If you're pouring it through the bag as a filter Tom, just make sure it is scrupulously clean and sanitary, as anything coming into contact with cool wort has the potential to infect it. If you do use some voile, I'd be more inclined to set aside a dedicated piece just for filtering rather than having to clean the bag up every time in between mashing and pouring.
The most recent colander/ whole hops filter I did the other day was actually a bit of a dud! Ended up with quite a lot of break in there, I think I'll go back to the big sieve. It usually works a treat though and as a simple break filter step it doesn't need any complex or custom equipment, modifications, nor great expense, so I recommend it for novices while most of the time I also use it myself.
The most recent colander/ whole hops filter I did the other day was actually a bit of a dud! Ended up with quite a lot of break in there, I think I'll go back to the big sieve. It usually works a treat though and as a simple break filter step it doesn't need any complex or custom equipment, modifications, nor great expense, so I recommend it for novices while most of the time I also use it myself.
[center]Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes[/center]
Post #11 made 15 years ago
I'm not 100% sure of the size of the piece of voile I've got as yet. I think it's about 3 ft by 4 ft so should have enough left over from the bag. Although for the 1st time I might not make the bag and just line the stockpot and secure it around the rim.........
The last time I used a colander it wasn't big enough so ended up having to tip the boiler in two steps and consequently the break was disturbed
Cheers Tom
The last time I used a colander it wasn't big enough so ended up having to tip the boiler in two steps and consequently the break was disturbed
Cheers Tom
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Post #12 made 15 years ago
Hi Tomsoupdragon wrote:Hi all
Will finally be doing my 1st BIAB next weekend. My question is, although there's not a lot I can do about it. How much lower should I expect my extraction to be from std crushed grain rather than the fine grind that I've seen mentioned on here?
Cheers Tom
I get my grain standard crush, and I've been getting around 78-80% pre boil, with a mash out and squeeze.
Cheers wiz
Last edited by wizard78 on 01 Dec 2010, 07:38, edited 5 times in total.
[center]"All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer."
[/center]
[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
[center]K.I.S.S., B.I.A.B.[/center]
[/center]
[center]Homer Simpson[/center]
[center]K.I.S.S., B.I.A.B.[/center]
Post #13 made 15 years ago
last brew I did I found that I got more out of the squeeze by spinning and twisting the bag first.
Post #14 made 15 years ago
That sounds good enough for the amount that I brew so it's looking good for the weekendwizard78 wrote:Hi Tomsoupdragon wrote:Hi all
Will finally be doing my 1st BIAB next weekend. My question is, although there's not a lot I can do about it. How much lower should I expect my extraction to be from std crushed grain rather than the fine grind that I've seen mentioned on here?
Cheers Tom
I get my grain standard crush, and I've been getting around 78-80% pre boil, with a mash out and squeeze.
Cheers wiz
Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 01 Dec 2010, 23:49, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #15 made 15 years ago
Hi there Tom,
Be nice to hear when you get that strange flavour sorted. Will have another read of that thread in a minute and see if I can think of anything else.
Couple of things for this thread...
Grain Crush
I am lucky enough now to have a mill that gives a very good crush - not too fine and not too coarse. In other words, my mill gives a perfect crush for a traditional brew. I pretty much always get well over 80% efficiency into the kettle and sometimes a lot more and this is for double-batches as well. (Remember, you can't make a judgement on one brew - you need to collect averages and ignore the occasional 'wild' brew.) I average 82% into the kettle efficiency.
I have never seen anyone do several brews (say five) with a coarse crush and five with a fine crush and record the results. (Even doing this would not be a very good sample.) In other words, a lot of what we hear about a crush is anecdotal.
BIABrewers also do not all use the same bag. My bags are quite fine and I get clear wort with my crush. Someone with a fine crush and a coarse bag however will probably end up with a very cloudy wort and perhaps lose out when it comes to their "final" efficiency that being what ends up in their keg or bottles.
So, I don't think their is a definitive answer on this. But, I do know that an average crush should work very well.
Using a Bag to Filter Kettle Trub
Reducing trub into the fermenter is a whole new subject with a heap of possibilities. (I just did a quick forum search for "kettle trub" and it looks like there is some good reading on BIABrewer.info already .)
I did try using my bag as a filter into the fermenter once as an experiment and it was a PITA. It just clogged and everything got very messy. I also tried a lot of other things 
. I now prefer to just liberally allow for kettle trub. This might mean I leave some good stuff in the kettle from time to time but it sure as hell makes life easier 
.
Cheers mate,
PP
Be nice to hear when you get that strange flavour sorted. Will have another read of that thread in a minute and see if I can think of anything else.
Couple of things for this thread...
Grain Crush
I am lucky enough now to have a mill that gives a very good crush - not too fine and not too coarse. In other words, my mill gives a perfect crush for a traditional brew. I pretty much always get well over 80% efficiency into the kettle and sometimes a lot more and this is for double-batches as well. (Remember, you can't make a judgement on one brew - you need to collect averages and ignore the occasional 'wild' brew.) I average 82% into the kettle efficiency.
I have never seen anyone do several brews (say five) with a coarse crush and five with a fine crush and record the results. (Even doing this would not be a very good sample.) In other words, a lot of what we hear about a crush is anecdotal.
BIABrewers also do not all use the same bag. My bags are quite fine and I get clear wort with my crush. Someone with a fine crush and a coarse bag however will probably end up with a very cloudy wort and perhaps lose out when it comes to their "final" efficiency that being what ends up in their keg or bottles.
So, I don't think their is a definitive answer on this. But, I do know that an average crush should work very well.
Using a Bag to Filter Kettle Trub
Reducing trub into the fermenter is a whole new subject with a heap of possibilities. (I just did a quick forum search for "kettle trub" and it looks like there is some good reading on BIABrewer.info already
.)I did try using my bag as a filter into the fermenter once as an experiment and it was a PITA. It just clogged and everything got very messy
. I also tried a lot of other things . I now prefer to just liberally allow for kettle trub. This might mean I leave some good stuff in the kettle from time to time but it sure as hell makes life easier .Cheers mate,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 02 Dec 2010, 20:31, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #16 made 15 years ago
Hmmmmmm so it looks like the standard crush will do me nicely then. Good to hear
As regards the hot break, I might be looking at it as the cause rather than as an effect. My prevoius method allowed a ton of small grain particles through into the boil so maybe the flavour is more from boiling with grain present and I'm just seeing loads of hot break as a result?
Cheers Tom
As regards the hot break, I might be looking at it as the cause rather than as an effect. My prevoius method allowed a ton of small grain particles through into the boil so maybe the flavour is more from boiling with grain present and I'm just seeing loads of hot break as a result?
Cheers Tom
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Post #17 made 15 years ago
I get really confused on this issue Tom.soupdragon wrote:My previous method allowed a ton of small grain particles through into the boil so maybe the flavour is more from boiling with grain present and I'm just seeing loads of hot break as a result?
I have never done a decoction mash but this involves boiling part of the mash so why is it a problem if your mash goes above 78 degrees or, God forbid, reaches 100 degrees???
I am assuming pH is correct.
I might ask about this on another forum and see if we get a good answer...
Last edited by PistolPatch on 02 Dec 2010, 22:05, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #18 made 15 years ago
Hi
I was only really thinking out loud about the fine particles of grain being the cause of my taste rather than the break. I suppose once I've done my 1st BIAB I'll have abetter idea
I hope so anyway..........
Cheers Tom
I was only really thinking out loud about the fine particles of grain being the cause of my taste rather than the break. I suppose once I've done my 1st BIAB I'll have abetter idea
I hope so anyway..........
Cheers Tom
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Post #19 made 15 years ago
I don't have a mill and get my grains pre-crushed from our local supplier who does it for free. As an experiment I asked them if they could run a couple of my batches through the mill twice and indeed they were more 'floury' than normal, but at the end of the day my "house" beers turned out just the same.
I also believe that a thorough mashout would probably give more of an efficiency boost. As for crushing the grain really fine as in a coffee grinder I can't comment, but hear good reports. Happy with current crush as supplied.
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I also believe that a thorough mashout would probably give more of an efficiency boost. As for crushing the grain really fine as in a coffee grinder I can't comment, but hear good reports. Happy with current crush as supplied.
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Last edited by Guest on 04 Dec 2010, 15:51, edited 5 times in total.
Post #20 made 15 years ago
Yep, I have my fingers crossed that your first BIAB will not have this problem 
.
I managed to get a few good answers here though regarding my question on why you can boil grain in a decoction mash.
Good luck with your first BIAB Tom which I see from your other posts tonight is happening right now!
.I managed to get a few good answers here though regarding my question on why you can boil grain in a decoction mash.
Good luck with your first BIAB Tom which I see from your other posts tonight is happening right now!
Last edited by PistolPatch on 04 Dec 2010, 22:42, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #21 made 15 years ago
Don't really understand this decoction stuff. I'll just play it as safe and simple as I can for now and hope that I can lose that flavour of mine....PistolPatch wrote:Yep, I have my fingers crossed that your first BIAB will not have this problem
I managed to get a few good answers here though regarding my question on why you can boil grain in a decoction mash.
Good luck with your first BIAB Tom which I see from your other posts tonight is happening right now!
Oh and the boil is going well, just topped it up with some boling water. Smells fantastic
Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 04 Dec 2010, 22:50, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #22 made 15 years ago
Good stuff Tom!
Yes, I think decoction is something that I will never need to do, thank goodness! Sounds like a PITA.
Yes, I think decoction is something that I will never need to do, thank goodness! Sounds like a PITA
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Post #23 made 15 years ago
Simple is good, just like mePistolPatch wrote:Good stuff Tom!
Yes, I think decoction is something that I will never need to do, thank goodness! Sounds like a PITA
Time for a final boiler top up and chuck in some Irish moss
I'm dreading tipping through the voile into my fermenter. Everything has gone far too well so far, something is bound to go wrong
Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 04 Dec 2010, 23:29, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #24 made 15 years ago
As you said, "Simple is better," so 
...
I wouldn't worry about filtering through the voille. Just let it all settle and syphon slowly. (In post #19 of this thread, the link I supplied also talks about how much of a PITA filtering through voille is.) Filtering through the voille will be messy and just asks for problems I reckon.
You will/should get clear wort from a chilled, settled kettle. If you want to get every possible drop, then I would do as above and then pour the rest into a jug and leave it in the fridge overnight. I seem to get very little extra doing this but someone with a coarse bag might???
Keep, keeping it simple,
PP
...I wouldn't worry about filtering through the voille. Just let it all settle and syphon slowly. (In post #19 of this thread, the link I supplied also talks about how much of a PITA filtering through voille is.) Filtering through the voille will be messy and just asks for problems I reckon.
You will/should get clear wort from a chilled, settled kettle. If you want to get every possible drop, then I would do as above and then pour the rest into a jug and leave it in the fridge overnight. I seem to get very little extra doing this but someone with a coarse bag might???
Keep, keeping it simple
,PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 04 Dec 2010, 23:44, edited 5 times in total.
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Post #25 made 15 years ago
Someone suggested putting some fresh hops in the voile would help with the filtration, would I get much in the way of aroma or flavour from them?PistolPatch wrote:As you said, "Simple is better," so
I wouldn't worry about filtering through the voille. Just let it all settle and syphon slowly. (In post #19 of this thread, the link I supplied also talks about how much of a PITA filtering through voille is.) Filtering through the voille will be messy and just asks for problems I reckon.
You will/should get clear wort from a chilled, settled kettle. If you want to get every possible drop, then I would do as above and then pour the rest into a jug and leave it in the fridge overnight. I seem to get very little extra doing this but someone with a coarse bag might???
Keep, keeping it simple
PP
Cheers Tom
Last edited by soupdragon on 05 Dec 2010, 00:00, edited 5 times in total.
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