Adjusting BIABacus KFL?

• • SVA Brewer With Over 50 Brews From Australia
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

• • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

I have been wondering about filtering lately myself, as I often have 4 litres or more of KFL, especially with wheat beers etc. That's a gallon or more of potential beer going down the drain .

I no chill in the kettle, and siphon to fermentor, so its pretty easy process wise to leave it behind, but not so easy when it comes to dumping/cleaning the kettle and watching potential beer go down the drain. I was wondering what people use to filter, so thanks for the info Josh, how do you sanitize the tshirt? Soak in starsan or boil it? I guess if I could figure out a way to stretch it over something to hold it somehow I could dump the kettle instead of syphoning... Hmmmm...

• • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Canada
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

• • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

• • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Canada
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

• • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

Josh (and others), you will have missed some earlier post/s I have written on trub filtering pre versus post kettle outlet. Any filtering in our kettle scenario needs to happen in the kettle not outside it. I know this might seem very unintuitive but I have a very good analogy for this that will make it clear - am too tired to write it now sorry so please just accept my word for now that any efficient filtering must occur in the kettle.

bundy, did you get my last email? If so, please let me know! As for kettle to fermentor loss, the BIABacus defaults are written in a way that enables you to get under way confidently with your brewing.

KFL is an interesting area. KFL is very unpredictable. In BIABAcus 1.0 (unreleased at time of writing and it won't be until after the Christmas break - too busy), there are two choices you can make on which KFL you select that consider both grain and hop trub. (bundy, I thought you were a beta on that version of the BIABacus which gave you an advanced trub choice???)

...

Regardless, if you have a large variance from the BIABacus predictions on KFL, I would want to know your kettle diameter and height, desired VIF, timings (eg speed of transfers) and, if necessary, a visual on your bag porosity.

Even if I knew all that, I would not be worried about 3.8 litres of wastage. I've had 8 on some brews where I have desired 23 VIF! (I know better now ).

Anyway, post the answers to some of the questions I have asked here and maybe a few files? The more info the better,
PP

• • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

• • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

I got to thinking a bit more about this, and wondering, if you just allow some of the trub into the fermentor, will it end up falling out and compacting at the bottom anyway? Easier than trying to filter, but then there is the whole debate about trub's effect on the finished product. So I got to searching the site for 'trub filtering', and found numerous discussions, but one that I found interesting was this http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... ing#p39861

And within that I found a link that Bundy posted about an experiment a fellow did with the same beer fermented side by side, one with extreme amounts of trub and one with almost none-
http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-gr ... ts-are-in/

After that little trip down the reading rabbit hole, and a bunch of other search results from my filtering search here, I think maybe I will stop worrying about losing beer with trub, and just siphon a few truby litres from the bottom of the kettle if it seems theres a lot. Not all the trub but more than I currently do. (I usually stop siphoning as soon as it looks cloudy in the hose)

PP - Personally my variance isn't that large from BIABacus predictions now that I have checked,(did a quick avg over my last 6 brews just now and its just over a litre on avg more than predicted) I would say more so on wheat beers or really hoppy beers, since I never seem to have time to wash my brew bag in time to use it as a hop sock (kids etc.) so that obviously plays a role. (although maybe not since I tell BIABacus NO for hopsock)

So after all the reading and averaging I just did I don't think I'll bother filtering, and I will probably syphon maybe an extra litre or 2 of cloudy/truby wort. Seems the simplest approach always ends up being the best in this hobby...

• • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Canada
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

• • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

• • SVA Brewer With Over 50 Brews From Australia
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

joshua wrote:PistolPatch, Sorry, that I brought up a way to get as much wort possible into the Fermenter.

It does take More equipment and Time to grab that 1L to 4L.

Not a worry at all Josh. The main point I wanted to make but was too tired (lazy?) to do on Thursday is that filtering the wort after it passes through the tap is difficult (the filters clog up very quickly) and can be dangerous (increased infection). If you want to filter trub to a big extent, then putting filters before the syphon or tap cuts out the infection danger and also is very easy. Imagine those old cone shaped coffee filters. What happens in those is that the muddy coffee has access to a large filter area (like a grain in a BIAB mash), Imagine turning that cone upside down and pouring the muddy water through a small hose over the 'top' of that cone. It will get clogged immediately. So putting a filter/s (hp socks, 'scrubby's etc) inside the kettle is often easier.

However! One of the easiest and often over-looked methods of trub management is just doing a gentle transfer. Keep your syphon or pick up tube in the one spot and do the transfer slowly.

At the end of the day though, I wouldn't get too hung up on this unless you are in Josh's position where every drop counts.

bundy wrote:Anyway here's a couple of recent files of the same NRB Recipe, will show the Kettle size etc in there.

I use a hop sock, but for me anyway if I turned that from Y to N the Trub I get would be a lot closer to reality.

So not sure what to do, if I adjust, Turn off the hopsock, Try something different in my Process? Or just ignore it?

Cheers

Thanks for the detail above bundy and apologies for the delayed reply. I wouldn't have any hesitation in increasing the BIABacus trub estimates. It's not a big concern. Try the gentle transfer I mentioned to Josh above but your process sounds great to me.

I think it is far more important to be setting things up so as you get at least the amount of beer you want into packaging. I couldn't see any Volume into Packaging figures in your BIABaci but, at the end of the day, that is really what you want to be aiming for. (In the BIABacus you might have seen in the beta area, one change is that in Section B, VIF and VIP are now both present.) Sometimes people might have lots of kettle trub but not much fermentor trub - all trub will either be removed before the package or end up in it.

So, I think your main focus should be on setting up your brew day (BIABacus numbers) so that you can be sure that you will end up with at least the amount of beer at the right strength into packaging. In other words, err for more volume of a stronger wort than less volume of a weak wort. If you have excess wort at any stage and are paronoid over waste, you can either ferment and bottle it or freeze it and use it for starters or experiments at a later date.

Don't fret over this bundy. Your KFL numbers are in the ball-park. (Be good to see your FPL numbers as well.) Your kettle efficiencies on one of those files were out of the ball-park but we all get that from time to time. If that is a regular occurrence though, that should be your first point of concern.


PP

• • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Australia
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

• • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

Joshua, I think Pat was using an analogy, in how filters in general can work.

Eg use a hop sock to catch trub, like a coffee filter will fill fast, use it to disperse trub in an inverse cone shape will disperse the trub to the sides, whilst still leave open mesh to let the liquid through. I don't read that as recommending to use a paper coffee filter though

As for using a tap, my urn has a tap built in approx 2 to 3 cm above the floor of my urn, at that height it's almost perfect to be above the trub level, and it's already there, so one less piece of equipment I need. The old K.I.S.S principle "keep it simple" approach.

• • SVA Brewer With Over 50 Brews From Australia
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

PistolPatch wrote: Thanks for the detail above bundy and apologies for the delayed reply. I wouldn't have any hesitation in increasing the BIABacus trub estimates. It's not a big concern. Try the gentle transfer I mentioned to Josh above but your process sounds great to me.

I think it is far more important to be setting things up so as you get at least the amount of beer you want into packaging. I couldn't see any Volume into Packaging figures in your BIABaci but, at the end of the day, that is really what you want to be aiming for. (In the BIABacus you might have seen in the beta area, one change is that in Section B, VIF and VIP are now both present.) Sometimes people might have lots of kettle trub but not much fermentor trub - all trub will either be removed before the package or end up in it.

So, I think your main focus should be on setting up your brew day (BIABacus numbers) so that you can be sure that you will end up with at least the amount of beer at the right strength into packaging. In other words, err for more volume of a stronger wort than less volume of a weak wort. If you have excess wort at any stage and are paronoid over waste, you can either ferment and bottle it or freeze it and use it for starters or experiments at a later date.

Don't fret over this bundy. Your KFL numbers are in the ball-park. (Be good to see your FPL numbers as well.) Your kettle efficiencies on one of those files were out of the ball-park but we all get that from time to time. If that is a regular occurrence though, that should be your first point of concern.


PP

Thanks PP, Yes your right both those files don't have packaging values as #11 I had just packaged and # 12 is actually still sitting in the fermentor!

However looking back at my figures from some other brews my FPL is very close to the estimates. Close enough not to concern me at all.

I also see 2 things in my process that I also would say affects the margin for error in my FPL.

1 - I use 568ml bottles when packaging. If I cant fill a bottle I dont count that (Some days I get lucky others I can only half or 3/4 fill a bottle so there's possibly up to 400 ml discrepancy there)

2 - I Bulk prime so I am actually adding 500ml of Water / Dextrose solution to my overall volume as I rack off to mix in the priming bucket ready for transferring to bottles. So there's 0.5L added.

In general I've been Within about 0.6L either way, so I personally don't see that as much of an issue.

Lastly you mentioned Kettle Efficiency:
This is something I have been pondering of late also. I have been consistently on the low side. Not by a massive amount but I always seem to be 4 points or so low with my GIB.

I previously used Nev to mill my grain and now mill myself. Either way GIB has continued to be slightly lower than expected. (Except for one brew day when it read a crazy high figure, but on secondary testing that figure was an anomaly for some reason) But that's another story as I had already diluted the boil before I found out the measurement error.

Looking at some numbers (and taking out the extremes as shown in file #11) I'd say I average ~ 4% lower EIB than expected

So based on all that (and I don't intend to do it yet but if this trend continues I will consider)

What would I adjust in BIABacus is it Section Y?

Or should I be looking more at a process issue? With something I can improve to help increase that number?

• • SVA Brewer With Over 50 Brews From Australia
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

• • SVA Brewer With Over 50 Brews From Australia
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0

• • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From United States of America
  • Quote
• • • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0
    • 0