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micron filters

Post #1 made 9 years ago
by rbcon2
Hello brewing friends,

The "Mad Scientist" and I were having a conversation about filtration and air contamination. This is likely to occur during the vacuum release of the "No Chill" It seems to me that this is one of the places that contamination/infection can get into the wort. Having a business in rowing exotic mushrooms I am constantly watching for this problem.

Yeast and mycelium are very close from the stand point of how each work in their respective environments.

In the production of "spawn for mushroom growth we use "Micron Filters" (3 Microns)to allow the spawn to breath while the mycelium runs through the substrate.

Here is the question? The micron filter can be cut to size to fit in the lid of the no chill jug. A hole drilled in the lid would allow the atmospheric change to stabilize. This in theory would allow the no vacuum to be in the jug. The jug would constantly be at atmospheric rather than creating the vacuum in the no chill jug. Mold spore range from 7-40 microns, yeast from 3-8 microns. This method works very well for us mushroom growers in keeping out unwanted foreign competitors.

I know some will scoff at the over protective measures saying "just bleed off the vacuum and get on with it"
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Last edited by rbcon2 on 28 Jul 2014, 08:49, edited 1 time in total.
Roger Barnett

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
Mark Twain
    • SVA Brewer From United States of America

Post #2 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Roger, I have a lot of questions here but am overdue on other stuff here so, as fast as I can...

There used to be a 'BIABrewer' stickied thread on this forum I thought on 'active' chilling, 'passive' chilling (slow and no-chilling). That is a worry that it has gone AWOL :dunno:.

I was going to link to that now non-existent thread as it is very important to define what sort of chilling you are talking about. Other forums just talk chill and no-chill whilst this forum had, in the now non-existent thread, definitions of several types of chilling.

Suffice to say, for now, that putting a hole in a lid of a cube that would be kept for a long period of time would be really bad as it will 'rust' the wort.

Hope I haven't totally mis-interpreted what you are talking about ;),
PP

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Post #3 made 9 years ago
by rbcon2
Hello PistolPatch,

The no chill method I referred to is what I would refer to as "short term". I was not thinking of long term storage of wort. My concern was for very short term storage or until the wort had cooled. I would certainly like to read of methods for "No Chill".

Perhaps I am being over concerned with contamination. The mushroom business has to be concerned with this problem. contamination is paramount.

Lack of response to this thread tells me perhaps this is not a topic of great concern. I will do my own experiments and if it works out I will then share my results.
Roger Barnett

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
Mark Twain
    • SVA Brewer From United States of America

Post #4 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Roger, I don't think the lack of response is relevant. Your question could not be anbswered correctly until more questions were asked and I asked those in my first post here. Any other replies in this thread before you responded to my questions would have just been a waste of time for everyone. Happens all the time on other forums. You'll get fifty replies of people telling you what they do but that has actually has no relevance to your situation.

So, if you judge interest or quality by the number of replies, abandon ship :lol:. If you judge quality by careful consideration and detail then stay on board.

Your question isn't actually that hard. For example, if you were storing wort for as long as I do, sometimes 18 months, but even for just a few weeks, then your idea would be a massive disaster.

If you wish to even store it for a short time, say a week, then it could also be a disaster as you could get the rusting (oxygenation, HSA) in that time. Just imagine anything you buy in a can that instead had your filter in the lid :shock:.

The scoffing you mentioned earlier is actually quite correct now that I think on it. You want a vacuum, not a two way flow of oxygen, even if filtered, for the reasons I wrote above (some twice now :)). Just make sure you and MS were not talking at cross purposes. It doesn't often happen on this forum but I have certainly done it before here once or twice, maybe you guys are also viewing things from two different angles :dunno:.

Oxygen has no place in your wort until just before pitching.

:peace:
PP

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Post #5 made 9 years ago
by rbcon2
Thank you PistolPatch for the frank and direct no nonsense response. Duly noted. It was not my intent to be whining although I can see how that was perceived.

Your point of "rusting" makes perfect sense in this situation.

is there for concern of contamination once the vacuum has been broken? do you take any measures to deal with this? If there is a thread in the forum, please direct me there.
Roger Barnett

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
Mark Twain
    • SVA Brewer From United States of America

Post #6 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
No need to apologise at all Roger. I just get cranky that there is so much info on this forum but it is so hard to find and the process of making it easy to find is wildly time-consuming. Not many people realise how wildly our circumstances as brewers can vary. Anyway, each week makes some progress.

What you should be being advised are heaps of things. Basically, a brewer advising you needs to put themselves in your shoes. They should be asking you where you are from and you should put that in your profile, as this gives an immediate indication if you are from a place that may require special consideration.

Secondly, knowing where you are from gives us knowledge of what temps you are currently dealing with. That is really important. If your tap water is 5 C most of the year around, then your situation is wildly different to mine which ranges from around 17 to 27 C.

Thirdly, if you want to pitch as soon as you can without using active chilling, then we need to tell you how to do it. This is why I am annoyed at a thread I thought we had here has gone AWOL :argh:.

But, until I ask more questions of you, I can't even answer your questions correctly. I can make some simplifications and generalisations and you'll never prove me wrong but I never do that. I'll just keep asking questions until I know you are getting the right advice.

Much faster though if you give as much info as you can up front ;). (We should have a template for that :think:).

Main thing for rb though now is determining if he can 'kettle chill'. It's a great option.

;)
PP

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Post #7 made 9 years ago
by mally
Well it can just show how you can get the wrong end of the stick!

I wondered what you were going on about Pat with rusting & oxygenation.
I thought the filter was something that was added before the cap.
For example, when you open the cap, and you get the rush of air into the cube, this would then go through the filter.
Remove the cap, then remove the filter/insert, then transfer to fermenter etc.

Re-reading it I can see I didn't pay enough attention :sneak:

Regardless, I did view it as something that probably wouldn't add value to my brewery, but I do like thoughts and ideas like this. :thumbs:
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #8 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Mally, you get the wrong end of the stick about as much as I do I reckon. It's not often (I hope!). The big problem with this forum is that because of other forums, most members will not realise how much concentration and how good an answer you get here is. (Until we get really drunk - lol).

The rusting thing I wrote was probably stupid. I just think of 'oxidation' as rusting and seeing that cap with the hole in it (the one bit you probably missed) lead to the above ;).
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Post #9 made 9 years ago
by rbcon2
PP,

I am interested in your thinking on location and how it affect the brew process. I live in Southern California USA. From what I understand the summer/winters are similar to your country. We are considered "desert arid" type of location even though we are within twenty miles of the coast. Summer daytime temps range from 80-105 degrees.

I checked my profile and it does say I am in California. Did I miss a place for additional info regarding a bio?

I check the tap water temperature midday and it was 80 degrees.

my understanding of "active chilling" is to use a copper coiled wort chiller which I own and have used. The no chill method I understand is to drain the wort while hot into a plastic jug and cap it, then allow it to cool naturally. I like the idea of saving the "jugged" wort. What about storage temperatures?

The brew bag I purchased should be here next week, then it will be off to purchase the grin bill and hops.

Until I feel comfortable with this new method I do appreciate all of the advise.
Roger Barnett

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
Mark Twain
    • SVA Brewer From United States of America

Post #10 made 9 years ago
by PistolPatch
Hey there Roger,

Sorry I missed your location before. It's at the top of your posts now for sure so I'm probably just going mad/der :lol:.

Short on time so I can't really afford to write detailed answers atm as the sort of time/concentration required for these sort of answers is time that is taken directly away from BIABacus work unfortunately. I also want to write this chilling stuff up far better (and define it/name it better) than what I'll jot down here now. Anyway, hopefully it and other's help will get you moving forward.

Active Chilling: (Involves equipment and water.) Could be immersion chiller, plate chiller or counter-flow chiller. Will only cool to a few degrees of tap temperature so if tap temp is too warm, then a pre-chiller with ice (involves a copper coil in a bucket of iced water) will need to be employed as the wort gets to within a few degrees of tap temp. Alternatively, the wort can be transferred to the fermentor after chilling with tap water and then the remaining chill to pitching temp can be done in a fridge.

(For small batch brewers, the above can be achieved in a laundry tub/sink.)

No-Chilling/Overnight Chilling: (Involves zero chilling equipment.) This involves placing the lid (and towel, see below) on the kettle at flame-out and leaving it to chill in the kettle overnight. To avoid the possibility of stewing the hops, I would advise using your BIAB bag as a hop-sock and removing the sock from the wort, ten minutes after flame-out. Cover the lid of the kettle with a towel once the heat settles down a little to help prevent nasties accessing the kettle.

With this method, you should reach ambient air temperature within 24 hours. Drain into fermentor and if necessary, chill further to pitching temp.

No-Chilling/Delayed Pitching: (Involves a high-temp, food-grade, plastic cube). About five or ten minutes after flame-out, wort is transferred via silicone hose and ball-valve or jiggler syphon to plastic cube. Cube is filled to brim (or air squeezed out) and then capped and left to cool.

Wort can be left in the cube for weeks and months before transferring to fermentor, (final chilling to pitching temp if needed) and pitching. I would suggest using 'kettle chilling' above instead of cube chilling if you intend to pitch the wort asap as this removes an extra transfer and an extra vessel to clean.

Summary

A new brewer need not concern themselves as to the differences between each chilling method and also should avoid making hop adjustments to a recipe to account for different chilling methods as the small amount of research done in these areas makes no conclusions.

Instead, a new brewer should look at what method will serve them best in their current circumstances.

:peace:
PP

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Last edited by PistolPatch on 02 Aug 2014, 18:48, edited 1 time in total.
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