Hi there!
I'm relatively new to home brewing, but I love it! I've got a few extract recipes done, and they turned out really very nice, but I wanted to do more. So it's on to AG.
Now, I'm new to AG (like, BRAAANDD new) and have been feverishly reading to get myself a bit more ready. I've got a few pieces of new equipment coming to round out my BIAB (RIM) system and have been looking at BIABacus and a few recipes to see where I'd like to start. Great site, by the way!
In my reading, I've seen, over and over, that most folks aren't, generally, greatly concerned with water chemistry, and with apparent good reason. Ive also read, repeatedly, that if the water tastes good, then it's good to go.
So, why am I still sweating my water???
It tastes good, maybe a bit minerally, but just fine. However, as part of my research into water, I pulled up my city water reports...including the wells closest to my house....and here are my numbers...
Ca 34
Mg 68
SO4 75
Na 94
Cl 68
HCO3 400
pH 8.2
When I put them into the calculator, the results aren't great. If I cut the water by 50% with RO, the numbers get a bit better. Adding a bit of gypsum gets them closer...but my pH still sucks.
So, my belaboured question: since AG is NOT extract, and water maters...does MY out-of-spec water mater? I'm especially concerned about the pH.
Am I over thinking this? Should I just plunge ahead with the tap, or sould I cut and modify my water?
Experts, please weigh in....
Post #2 made 11 years ago
Rigging,
Let me cover my ars* first, "I am no expert" , my understanding is that the first and easiest step to take is to get Ca to around 100ppm.
Obviously, from your post you have heard the if you can drink it you can make beer saying. This is true.
If you are worried about pH and/or hardness, I would make up your water by using 100%RO or purchased water from the supermarket and add 100ppm Ca.
From there you could mix and match to see the effect in later brews.
Hope this helps.
Lemon
Let me cover my ars* first, "I am no expert" , my understanding is that the first and easiest step to take is to get Ca to around 100ppm.
Obviously, from your post you have heard the if you can drink it you can make beer saying. This is true.
If you are worried about pH and/or hardness, I would make up your water by using 100%RO or purchased water from the supermarket and add 100ppm Ca.
From there you could mix and match to see the effect in later brews.
Hope this helps.
Lemon
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Water question
Post #3 made 11 years ago
Have you read "How to Brew" by John Palmer. There was a section on water in it from memory. I glossed over it as I don't do AG but it might be worth a read.
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Post #4 made 11 years ago
Have you integrated sauermalz/acidulated malt? This is the only extra step I add to tame my water pH, relative to what you already listed.
I've personally used up to 5% in place of some base malt with no noticeable flavor effects, but I usually keep it around 2-3%.
I absolutely think everybody should have a firm grasp of water profiles, but that's really just opinion.
Also note that every brew will be different depending on the grist, so it would help to know what kind of profile you are shooting for.
I've personally used up to 5% in place of some base malt with no noticeable flavor effects, but I usually keep it around 2-3%.
I absolutely think everybody should have a firm grasp of water profiles, but that's really just opinion.
Also note that every brew will be different depending on the grist, so it would help to know what kind of profile you are shooting for.
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Post #5 made 11 years ago
Thanks for the replys. I appreciate you guys taking the time to help a new guy out. I understand that the grain bill and type will effect the pH, but surely you need to be within a general range to start with, no? And from what I've read, 8.2 is a bit high...
I've done quite a bit of reading on water chemistry (and I've got a pretty deep organic sciences background)so I feel like I've got a fair handle it, at least the basics (but certainly not a mastery of it) but, where I'm definitely deficient, is understanding WHEN I need to start this. Again, do I NEED to modify my water (which I can certainly do) or am I overthinking it?
The more I read forums, the more I understand that brewing USUALLY works out just fine on its own (as long as you are somewhat sanitary), so a lot of what people do is the fine tuning. I'm looking for some guidance in that direction: do I need to do this water mod? Or am I over thinking it and it'll be fine on its own?
I've done quite a bit of reading on water chemistry (and I've got a pretty deep organic sciences background)so I feel like I've got a fair handle it, at least the basics (but certainly not a mastery of it) but, where I'm definitely deficient, is understanding WHEN I need to start this. Again, do I NEED to modify my water (which I can certainly do) or am I overthinking it?
The more I read forums, the more I understand that brewing USUALLY works out just fine on its own (as long as you are somewhat sanitary), so a lot of what people do is the fine tuning. I'm looking for some guidance in that direction: do I need to do this water mod? Or am I over thinking it and it'll be fine on its own?
________________________________
Life's about choices...
Life's about choices...
Post #6 made 11 years ago
I would use 100% RO water as 'Lemon' said and build your profile from there. I like to use the Brewer's Friend calculator. Do you have a Walmart nearby? They have RO stations.
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemi ... alculator/
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemi ... alculator/
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Post #7 made 11 years ago
No. Starting water pH isn't the focus, it's your mash pH. Starting water pH tells us very little of what will happen within the context of brewing(e.g. buffering capacity) , which is why I asked for the context of your brew. You gave some information that I could plug into software, but it's meaningless until I can apply it to a recipe and desired target water profile.
We can go through everything to see where your mash pH will end up, and be able to provide you the most options.
Right now we don't have enough information to get started.
Say I give you a blanket statement, and tell you "if your water tastes fine you will be fine". Then, later find out your mash pH of this hypothetical brew was over 6.0, maybe you had tannic flavors. This is a known problem due to synergistic result of higher temps during mash/mashout and too high a MASH pH. Maybe also your extraction/kettle efficiency was poor? We would give you a list of things to check out ... one of which would be mash pH.
We're here right now, why blindly brew a beer and subject yourself to poor water conditions while we have the information to get started?
To answer your question, I need context.
We can go through everything to see where your mash pH will end up, and be able to provide you the most options.
Right now we don't have enough information to get started.
Say I give you a blanket statement, and tell you "if your water tastes fine you will be fine". Then, later find out your mash pH of this hypothetical brew was over 6.0, maybe you had tannic flavors. This is a known problem due to synergistic result of higher temps during mash/mashout and too high a MASH pH. Maybe also your extraction/kettle efficiency was poor? We would give you a list of things to check out ... one of which would be mash pH.
We're here right now, why blindly brew a beer and subject yourself to poor water conditions while we have the information to get started?
To answer your question, I need context.
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Post #8 made 11 years ago
Ok Rick, fair enough. My wife would like to a do a saison, since it's a nice summer beer that she enjoys....
Here are two of the recipes I'm looking at, not sure if you'll need more info that what I've provided...
Saison #1
5.5 gallon
ABV 6.39
OG 1.062
FG 1.014
IBU 22.1
Color 4.8 SRM
Efficiency 70%
Boil vol 6.2gallons
Boil time 90 min
Boil off 0.8 gallons
Post boil vol 5.5 gallons
Grain
10lb 2 row pilsner ger (83.3%)
1 lb Munich Mulch (8.3%)
1 lb Wheat, flaked (8.3%)
Hops
1.0 oz Golding, east kent pellet (5.0% alpha) @ 60 min
0.5 oz Saaz pellet (4.0% alpha) @ 30 min
0.5 oz Saaz pellet (4.0% alpha) @ 0 min
Additions
2.0g Orange peel, bitter @ 5 min
Yeast
1 pak White labs WLP565 Belgian Saison
Saison D'Ete
5.5 gallons
ABV 7.32%
OG 1.063
FG 1.008
IBU 20.6
Color 3.7 SRM
Efficiency 71%
Boil vol 8.0 gallons
Boil time 90 min
Boil off 1.69 gallons
Post boil vol 6.3 gallons
Grains
9lb 13oz pilsner 2 row ger (80.9%)
1lb 0.5oz wheat malt ger (8.5%)
1lb 4.7oz table sugar (10.6%)
Hops
1.27oz Styrian Goldings (5.4% alpha) @ 90 min
0.25oz Goldings east kent (5.0% alpha) @ 15 min
0.25oz Saaz (4.0% alpha) @ 2 min
Additions
0.25oz Orange zest @ 0 min
0.13oz fresh grated ginger @ 0 min
Yeast
1 pack White labs Wlp585 Belgian Saison III
Again, my local water is pH 8.2 and the salts are listed in there posts above.
Hopefully this is enough info to make things move in the right direct. Thanks!
Here are two of the recipes I'm looking at, not sure if you'll need more info that what I've provided...
Saison #1
5.5 gallon
ABV 6.39
OG 1.062
FG 1.014
IBU 22.1
Color 4.8 SRM
Efficiency 70%
Boil vol 6.2gallons
Boil time 90 min
Boil off 0.8 gallons
Post boil vol 5.5 gallons
Grain
10lb 2 row pilsner ger (83.3%)
1 lb Munich Mulch (8.3%)
1 lb Wheat, flaked (8.3%)
Hops
1.0 oz Golding, east kent pellet (5.0% alpha) @ 60 min
0.5 oz Saaz pellet (4.0% alpha) @ 30 min
0.5 oz Saaz pellet (4.0% alpha) @ 0 min
Additions
2.0g Orange peel, bitter @ 5 min
Yeast
1 pak White labs WLP565 Belgian Saison
Saison D'Ete
5.5 gallons
ABV 7.32%
OG 1.063
FG 1.008
IBU 20.6
Color 3.7 SRM
Efficiency 71%
Boil vol 8.0 gallons
Boil time 90 min
Boil off 1.69 gallons
Post boil vol 6.3 gallons
Grains
9lb 13oz pilsner 2 row ger (80.9%)
1lb 0.5oz wheat malt ger (8.5%)
1lb 4.7oz table sugar (10.6%)
Hops
1.27oz Styrian Goldings (5.4% alpha) @ 90 min
0.25oz Goldings east kent (5.0% alpha) @ 15 min
0.25oz Saaz (4.0% alpha) @ 2 min
Additions
0.25oz Orange zest @ 0 min
0.13oz fresh grated ginger @ 0 min
Yeast
1 pack White labs Wlp585 Belgian Saison III
Again, my local water is pH 8.2 and the salts are listed in there posts above.
Hopefully this is enough info to make things move in the right direct. Thanks!
________________________________
Life's about choices...
Life's about choices...
Post #9 made 11 years ago
Okay, thanks.
I plugged in everything for the first recipe. I filled out a quick BIABacus file to sort the beer, and then put all information into Bru'n'water using Martin's suggested Henegouwen/Hainaut (boiled) profile. With your water information, I'd need 82.5% RO water (if you want to skip the boil step), nearly 9% acid malt (approaching 10% max recommended), 3g gypsum and 2g CaCl to get your theoretical mash pH down to 5.35.
Looks like Lemon and MS were spot on, as it hardly makes sense to use so little of your tap water. Might as well just build from RO or distilled at this point.
Otherwise you CAN look into actually using more of your tap water, and figure out a boiling procedure that will conform to the profile.
Using 100% tap water gets you about 6.5 mash pH.
If you kept the CaCl, gypsum, dropped the acid malt to typical levels, and diluted 50/50 RO water ... your predicted mash pH is at 6.1. This STILL has you in the range where troubles start to occur, so I would not use your water for this style beer.
If you decide to boil tap water to reduce alkalinity, I can't help there as I have no experience with that.
I plugged in everything for the first recipe. I filled out a quick BIABacus file to sort the beer, and then put all information into Bru'n'water using Martin's suggested Henegouwen/Hainaut (boiled) profile. With your water information, I'd need 82.5% RO water (if you want to skip the boil step), nearly 9% acid malt (approaching 10% max recommended), 3g gypsum and 2g CaCl to get your theoretical mash pH down to 5.35.
Looks like Lemon and MS were spot on, as it hardly makes sense to use so little of your tap water. Might as well just build from RO or distilled at this point.
Otherwise you CAN look into actually using more of your tap water, and figure out a boiling procedure that will conform to the profile.
Using 100% tap water gets you about 6.5 mash pH.
If you kept the CaCl, gypsum, dropped the acid malt to typical levels, and diluted 50/50 RO water ... your predicted mash pH is at 6.1. This STILL has you in the range where troubles start to occur, so I would not use your water for this style beer.
If you decide to boil tap water to reduce alkalinity, I can't help there as I have no experience with that.
Last edited by Rick on 22 Jul 2014, 20:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #10 made 11 years ago
Do you guys in the USA have access to CRS (carbonate reducing solution)?
In the UK we can just make corrections with pre-defined doses of acids.
I have even read that PistolPatch has used (or knows of) using white vinegar to drop alkalinity.
I use a test kit (Salifert alkalinity profi-test) to determine levels (can be done on brew day with the water you are using), and then read off the chart how much dosage of CRS is required to bring it into style of choice.
Its easy, quick, (I would doubt accurate) but good enough to get you into a "ballpark".
Maybe RO & re-building is easier & cheaper in the USA, but is not as readily available (or cost effective) in the UK.
edit##
I should add as well, that this is not suitable if your mineral levels are too high for the style to begin with.
In the UK we can just make corrections with pre-defined doses of acids.
I have even read that PistolPatch has used (or knows of) using white vinegar to drop alkalinity.
I use a test kit (Salifert alkalinity profi-test) to determine levels (can be done on brew day with the water you are using), and then read off the chart how much dosage of CRS is required to bring it into style of choice.
Its easy, quick, (I would doubt accurate) but good enough to get you into a "ballpark".
Maybe RO & re-building is easier & cheaper in the USA, but is not as readily available (or cost effective) in the UK.
edit##
I should add as well, that this is not suitable if your mineral levels are too high for the style to begin with.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Post #11 made 11 years ago
Ok, so I worked the numbers through BIABacus for the Saison d'ete and then through Brewer's Friend's water chemistry calculator. With 100% RO, and some modification with salts, I got the grist pH in the 5.2 to 5.7 range as I screwed around with trying to make the numbers 'perfect'. One of the options I noticed, that seems to make a pretty significant difference, is whether the salts are added to the water first, or the the mash only.
So, the obvious question, which is more appropriate? Is it solely based on the grist pH outcome, or would it be better to add to the mash, or...?
Thanks for all the help! I think this stuff is starting to make a bit more sense...
So, the obvious question, which is more appropriate? Is it solely based on the grist pH outcome, or would it be better to add to the mash, or...?
Thanks for all the help! I think this stuff is starting to make a bit more sense...
________________________________
Life's about choices...
Life's about choices...
Post #12 made 11 years ago
Huh, I have not heard of that. I did some googling, and it does seem to be a widely accepted brewing method in the UK.mally wrote:Do you guys in the USA have access to CRS (carbonate reducing solution)?
In the UK we can just make corrections with pre-defined doses of acids.
I have even read that PistolPatch has used (or knows of) using white vinegar to drop alkalinity.
I use a test kit (Salifert alkalinity profi-test) to determine levels (can be done on brew day with the water you are using), and then read off the chart how much dosage of CRS is required to bring it into style of choice.
Its easy, quick, (I would doubt accurate) but good enough to get you into a "ballpark".
Maybe RO & re-building is easier & cheaper in the USA, but is not as readily available (or cost effective) in the UK.
edit##
I should add as well, that this is not suitable if your mineral levels are too high for the style to begin with.
Doesn't look like any of my LHBS carry it. I didn't expect them to, after my reading, but looked anyway. This is kind of a bummer, as it seems a solid tradition. I wouldn't mind integrating this into an English beer once I'm ready to move that way.
RO water is dirt cheap, and I have a source 1.2 miles from me. Works out great, and I can get 14 gallons for $4-5 (which is enough for a double (38-42L ea) batch for me, since I dilute my tap water about 45% or so).
Check with your brewing salts, and how they best dissolve. Gypsum and CaCl generally take a few minutes of stirring, so I tend to add them to cool water right after I add to the kettle so I can see it. They are then fully dissolved by the time I reach strike temp. There's likely nothing inherently wrong with stirring into the mash, but I'd be paranoid without the visual confirmation.Rigging65 wrote:Ok, so I worked the numbers through BIABacus for the Saison d'ete and then through Brewer's Friend's water chemistry calculator. With 100% RO, and some modification with salts, I got the grist pH in the 5.2 to 5.7 range as I screwed around with trying to make the numbers 'perfect'. One of the options I noticed, that seems to make a pretty significant difference, is whether the salts are added to the water first, or the the mash only.
So, the obvious question, which is more appropriate? Is it solely based on the grist pH outcome, or would it be better to add to the mash, or...?
Thanks for all the help! I think this stuff is starting to make a bit more sense...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Chalk on the other hand, pretty sure that needs to be stirred into the mash. Just gotta do some research.
I tend to read here for anything water related.
Last edited by Rick on 23 Jul 2014, 19:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #13 made 11 years ago
Ok, sounds like that's the way I'll go. Thanks!
________________________________
Life's about choices...
Life's about choices...
